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Old 09-11-2012, 02:43 PM
lee
 
Default Installation

"Weaver" <weaver@riseup.net> writes:

> On Mon, September 10, 2012 8:19 am, Chris Bannister wrote:
>>
>> Agreed. But the person who wants to install Debian is not the average
>> end/home user.
>
> Exactly, but that's the majority market and I don't see anything wrong
> woth aiming for that.

Now that is distorting the discussion, isn't it?


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Old 09-11-2012, 03:00 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Installation

On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 20:01:35 +1200, Chris Bannister wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 08:26:15PM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>> On Lu, 10 sep 12, 14:06:07, Camaleón wrote:
>> > disk (well, "buy" enclosed in quotes because a high percent of
>> > Windows users do not pay a cent for their OS, you know...).
>>
>> An Microsoft has no real incentive to force them to, because people
>> would just look for alternatives.
>
> Its almost impossible to get it going if you don't have that dammned
> product number.

The web is full of methods and cracks for overcoming that requirement.

> That alone, should be enough to push people to Linux.

That (sadly) never works because it requires a motivated user.

Greetings,

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Old 09-11-2012, 04:28 PM
lee
 
Default Installation

Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> writes:

> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 19:54:12 +0200, lee wrote:
>
>> Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> writes:
>
> (...)
>
>>>>> This is usually a delusion: is not that windows or linux is more or
>>>>> less easy (now or then) but how many people in your circle can
>>>>> solve/cope a problem with your system.
>>>>
>>>> Nobody --- and that probably isn't going to change.
>>>
>>> For Windows, yes, it's plenty of people.
>>
>> No, there aren't.
>
> In my planet, yes. Everybody I know uses Windows (starting from my mother
> and ending with my company partners).

That someone uses it doesn't mean that they are able to fix problems.

>>> Remember: Windows is a toy, MacOS is a dungeon and Linux is an
>>> attitude.
>>
>> What's your point?
>
> My point is that one of the main obstacles for the Linux introduction
> into the mass market (i.e., consumers) is not "difficulty" but the lack
> of people who can help you when a problem arises.
>
> Today, most of the user-friendly Linux distributions you can find out
> there (Ubuntu, Fedora, openSUSE, Debian...) are as easier to install and
> deal with as can be Windows or MacOS in the event they all have to be
> installed from scratch.

My experiences with that are very different.

> So, if Linux is now accesible and easy for consumers, why still those low
> number for Linux desktops? "Attitude".
>
> When a Windows user has a problem (an hey, because of my work, I'm tired
> of solving Windows problems) the user can easily find someone to fix it
> so he/she stays with Windows because the problem has gone. This is not
> happening when the user has Linux. Unless he/she shows a possitive
> attitude, the problem will stay forever because finding someone that
> knows about Linux is not that easy.

It's the other way round. People using windoze don't know how to fix
problems, they live with them. That even includes accepting losing all
their data from time to time. Just re-install when it gets too bad.

Then look around for solutions to problems you can have with Linux, and
you will find lots of answers and even solutions.

It's not about finding helpful people. It's what people have been made
to believe.

>> There isn't anyone who could solve a problem they might have with
>> windoze. Ask even an MSCE, and the only thing they say is "I don't
>> know".
>
> I'm a long time Windows user and there was only one time when I contacted
> MS official support which finally did not solve my issue and I had to
> figure out by myself.

I've made the same experience, except that I don't use windoze unless I
get payed for it. Nobody solves problems with windoze.

> Microsoft users are one of their most valuable
> assets, meaning that you don't need to contact Microsoft in order to get
> a problem solved, the web is plenty of plain users that do their work :-)

No it's not, simply because the users are clueless.

>>>>> Now do the same but tell them you have a problem with Konqueror. They
>>>>> will close the door in our nose and say something like "The guy on
>>>>> third floor is saying foolishness" :-)
>>>>
>>>> They would ask what konqueror is and tell you to reboot or to
>>>> re-install. That's not a significant difference.
>>>
>>> Ha! People can't even spell "konqueror" correctly, do you expect they
>>> will know what the hell is "that"?
>>
>> Did you read what I wrote?
>
> Yes, and I found it funny because most people don't even know that
> konqueror is a piece of software...

That's why I said they might ask what konqueror is. What makes you think
that I would expect they know what it is?

Most people don't even know the most basic things. Yet it is expected of
them to be able to use a computer, so people have assumed an attitude
that makes them experts, no matter how clueless they are. They try to go
what appears to them as the way of least resistance and aren't aware of
the disadvantages.


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Old 09-11-2012, 05:02 PM
Andrei POPESCU
 
Default Installation

On Ma, 11 sep 12, 18:28:18, lee wrote:
>
> It's the other way round. People using windoze don't know how to fix
> problems, they live with them.

Anecdotal evidence to that: at work (Window only shop) I get some error
messages on every login. The IT support guys said: "we don't know where
that comes from, just click it away."

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Old 09-11-2012, 05:08 PM
Andrei POPESCU
 
Default Installation

On Ma, 11 sep 12, 14:24:22, lee wrote:
>
> The question is not what is part of what, the question is what is
> needed. Since you need a working computer to install an OS on a
> computer, why can't we have that with an installation media so we can
> switch between the actual installer and the working system simply by
> pressing a key/button?

You can press (Ctrl+)Alt+F1 to get a console

(SCNR)

> When the actual installer asks me a question I cannot answer or when I
> find out I need to download something to proceed with the installation,
> I can just switch to the working system and google for an answer or
> download what I need. That's basically what the working system needs to
> provide me with; I don't need to run gimp or to compile emacs on it.

Yes, I know what you mean. This is called a "live installer" and I
understand Ubuntu has one: you boot into a live system you can try out
and if you want to install it you select something from the menu and the
installation runs in the background.

I'm guessing Debian's Installer would need quite some rework to enable
it to work on an already running (possibly live) system.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Old 09-11-2012, 05:23 PM
Andrei POPESCU
 
Default Installation

On Ma, 11 sep 12, 13:48:04, David Cho-Lerat wrote:
>
> For short : don't try to sound smart, most people are here
> looking for help, not looking to be impressed by your mastery
> of the English language. Or by your "clever" one-syllable joke :P

I can only speak for myself and not for any other non-native English
speakers reading the list, but personally I find it quite useful for me
to read discussions with and/or between native English speakers. I think
I might have improved my own English skills a lot since being subscribed
to debian-user (and other Debian lists).

Besides, this thread is not really about somebody asking for help.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Old 09-11-2012, 05:28 PM
Andrei POPESCU
 
Default Installation

On Ma, 11 sep 12, 22:36:09, Chris Bannister wrote:
> >
> > More seriously : I don't mean to offend you, Weaver, but you should
> > probably try to stick to "simple" English. This is an international list,
>
> LOL, You mean all those other debian-user (debian-user-catalan ...
> debian-user-vietnamese) are for show?

Those lists don't cover all languages and even if they would, I've
noticed a few users asking questions on d-u rather than their own
language list.

Hope this explains,
Andrei
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Old 09-11-2012, 05:38 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Installation

On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 18:28:18 +0200, lee wrote:

> Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 19:54:12 +0200, lee wrote:
>>
>>> Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> (...)
>>
>>>>>> This is usually a delusion: is not that windows or linux is more or
>>>>>> less easy (now or then) but how many people in your circle can
>>>>>> solve/cope a problem with your system.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nobody --- and that probably isn't going to change.
>>>>
>>>> For Windows, yes, it's plenty of people.
>>>
>>> No, there aren't.
>>
>> In my planet, yes. Everybody I know uses Windows (starting from my
>> mother and ending with my company partners).
>
> That someone uses it doesn't mean that they are able to fix problems.

The simply usage (by pure definition) confers the user some degree of
expertise and while it may not generate "Windows geniuses" it will allow
at least some basic control about how an operating system works.

(...)

>> Today, most of the user-friendly Linux distributions you can find out
>> there (Ubuntu, Fedora, openSUSE, Debian...) are as easier to install
>> and deal with as can be Windows or MacOS in the event they all have to
>> be installed from scratch.
>
> My experiences with that are very different.

In what way?

>> So, if Linux is now accesible and easy for consumers, why still those
>> low number for Linux desktops? "Attitude".
>>
>> When a Windows user has a problem (an hey, because of my work, I'm
>> tired of solving Windows problems) the user can easily find someone to
>> fix it so he/she stays with Windows because the problem has gone. This
>> is not happening when the user has Linux. Unless he/she shows a
>> possitive attitude, the problem will stay forever because finding
>> someone that knows about Linux is not that easy.
>
> It's the other way round. People using windoze don't know how to fix
> problems, they live with them.

It will depend on the problem because some problems cannot be avoided:
you solve it or you're completely hosed because your system is not able
to start :-)

> That even includes accepting losing all their data from time to time.
> Just re-install when it gets too bad.

That's not only for Windows users, it also happens here, in linux but
again, it's more an attitude than otherwise.

> Then look around for solutions to problems you can have with Linux, and
> you will find lots of answers and even solutions.

And more problems, unsupported hardware, outdated applications...

> It's not about finding helpful people. It's what people have been made
> to believe.

I don't think so. Windows and Linux are both having their own pros and
cons, and of course, both do have problems of different nature but
problems you have to solve in the end. There are no trouble-free OSes.

>>> There isn't anyone who could solve a problem they might have with
>>> windoze. Ask even an MSCE, and the only thing they say is "I don't
>>> know".
>>
>> I'm a long time Windows user and there was only one time when I
>> contacted MS official support which finally did not solve my issue and
>> I had to figure out by myself.
>
> I've made the same experience, except that I don't use windoze unless I
> get payed for it. Nobody solves problems with windoze.

Maybe is that you haven't searched enough. Indeed there are many forums,
mailing lists and helpful people out there that will try to fix your
issues (have you ever heard about Microsoft MVP?)

>> Microsoft users are one of their most valuable assets, meaning that you
>> don't need to contact Microsoft in order to get a problem solved, the
>> web is plenty of plain users that do their work :-)
>
> No it's not, simply because the users are clueless.

The average joe user has developed some skills on Windows.

>>> Did you read what I wrote?
>>
>> Yes, and I found it funny because most people don't even know that
>> konqueror is a piece of software...
>
> That's why I said they might ask what konqueror is. What makes you think
> that I would expect they know what it is?

Because you linked konqueror with a system reboot.

> Most people don't even know the most basic things. Yet it is expected of
> them to be able to use a computer, so people have assumed an attitude
> that makes them experts, no matter how clueless they are. They try to go
> what appears to them as the way of least resistance and aren't aware of
> the disadvantages.

Clueless people is not what I'm afraid of. Clueless people who want to
remain at their ignorant state perpetually and expect the others solves
their problems is what makes me shiver :-)

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 09-11-2012, 06:41 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Installation

On Tue, 2012-09-11 at 20:23 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Ma, 11 sep 12, 13:48:04, David Cho-Lerat wrote:
> >
> > For short : don't try to sound smart, most people are here
> > looking for help, not looking to be impressed by your mastery
> > of the English language. Or by your "clever" one-syllable joke :P
>
> I can only speak for myself and not for any other non-native English
> speakers reading the list, but personally I find it quite useful for me
> to read discussions with and/or between native English speakers. I think
> I might have improved my own English skills a lot since being subscribed
> to debian-user (and other Debian lists).
>
> Besides, this thread is not really about somebody asking for help.

I'm not gifted to learn languages and I don't spend any effort in
learning English. Reading those mails I don't learn better English, but
my word pool and my idioms dictionary does increase.

I guess I already know more words than those listed here:
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Basic_English_alphabetical_wordlist

I didn't check the list completely, but I had a brief look and only
found the words "plough/plow" I didn't know by heart.

+1 for elaborated code to increase the vocabulary

+1 for "simple English", it might help to understand syntax and tenses
easier

However, there's a coating of dust on my "Oxford Advanced Learner's
Dictionary of Current English". "Current" = 14. edition from 1983
I understand that elaborated code English speaking people don't like it,
but nowadays many of us use the Urban Dictionary, when I typed "urb..."
autocomplete led to http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ese ,
not a native English word and usually I won't use it, but this
happens to all languages on this planet. The German language lost lots
of German, Old Greek and Latin words, but increased by Anglicisms. It's
disgusting for me, so I understand that for native English speakers
gangsta rap English is disgusting too.

ʽPanda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats,
shoots and leaves.ĘĽ

"Greetz",
Ralf


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Old 09-11-2012, 07:16 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Installation

On Tue, 2012-09-11 at 14:44 +0200, lee wrote:
> Chris Bannister <cbannister@slingshot.co.nz> writes:
>
> > On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 09:06:33PM +0200, lee wrote:
> >>
> >> And where's the 40GB (or whatever size it is) Blueray image that has all
> >> the packages plus all the stuff from non-free plus a life system plus
> >> lots of documentation on it so that I can simply download that and boot
> >> and press a button and it just installs and works, without requiring
> >> internet access in the first place? --- The on-board ethernet card of my
> >> desktop doesn't work out of the box, so how the hell am I supposed to
> >> know what to do without a working computer that enables me to look for a
> >> solution?
> >>
> >
> > Mmmmm, now how much would you pay for that?
>
> Going by what they sold Suse in some book stores for many years ago, I
> would expect a price of about EUR 350--380 nowadays.
>
> If that was the only choice available, we'd just have to pay that.

A bill and delivery note from 21 November 2003 for "SUSE LINUX
Professional 9.0 - Student Version" says
postage and packing, including sale tax 3.53 EUR

sales tax 7.38 EUR
net 46.10 EUR
------------------------------------------------
total 53.48 EUR

Content
5 CDs, 1 two sided DVD, 90 days installation support, > 464 pages user
manual, > 620 pages admin manual

IIRC the "User Version" did cost less money and the "Professional"
non-"Student Version" less than 100.00 EUR. The "Student Version" also
was available for the unemployed population.

Regards,
Ralf




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