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Old 09-11-2012, 09:05 AM
Chris Bannister
 
Default Installation

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 07:49:39PM -0700, Weaver wrote:
> I installed the Debian version of Linux Mint to have a look at it and
> noticed a comment in the onsite forum asking when 'the KDE Version' would
> be coming out.
>
> I found aptitude underneath it all and laughed.

Why? Unless, I'm wrong, it will either be .rpm, or .deb based (or
flavours thereof?). So no suprises there.

> In about half an hour I had my usual mixed Debian system of some Gnome
> apps, some KDE, a sprinkle of XFCE and Enlightenment to hold it all
> together. Nothing new there!

Now install DSL (Dammned Small Linux), and see how long it takes to get
back to a Debian system. You'll learn a bit about how the system is
structured.

> The configurability of Debian answers to all tastes and once a new user
> has had a little time to become orientated, they will do what we all do
> and start to play.

Not my experience. Once its up and running, all they are interested in
is browsing, blogging, email etc.

--
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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Old 09-11-2012, 09:46 AM
"Morel Bérenger"
 
Default Installation

Le Lun 10 septembre 2012 21:06, lee a écrit :
> David Cho-Lerat <david.lerat@asterion.fr> writes:
>
>
>>> For more than a decade now you need a working computer to install an
>>> operating system on another one so that you can acquire information
>>> and additional software as needed. Why isn't that included in the
>>> installer? Just boot from the installation media and be presented with
>>> a working system and an installer, allowing you to switch between
>>> them.
>>>
>>>
>> that's called "Debian Live" : http://live.debian.net/
>
> When it already exists, why isn't that part of the installer?
>
>
> It's a typical page, btw:
>
>
> 1.) How do you find this website? Is it referred to anywhere from [1]?
>
>
> 2.) How the hell are you supposed to know what to download?
>
>
> 3.) How do you download and put it on a storage media I can boot from
> without a working computer? (Most ppl will probably just copy what they
> downloaded to their USB stick or maybe burn the file on a CD and then find
> out they can't boot from it.)
>
>
> And look at [1]:
>
>
> It's difficult to figure out what to download. It's very difficult to
> find the installer if you want to install testing.
>
> And then you have downloaded it and start installing on your laptop and
> it won't work because your wireless card (or something else) doesn't work.
> It probably doesn't work with the live image, either.
>
>
> Do you seriously expect ppl to figure out how to install Debian? The
> documentation they have on their websites isn't very good, that's why I say
> "typical page" above.
>
>
> And where's the 40GB (or whatever size it is) Blueray image that has all
> the packages plus all the stuff from non-free plus a life system plus lots
> of documentation on it so that I can simply download that and boot and
> press a button and it just installs and works, without requiring internet
> access in the first place? --- The on-board ethernet card of my desktop
> doesn't work out of the box, so how the hell am I supposed to know what to
> do without a working computer that enables me to look for a solution?
>
> And where do I go for the downloading and burning? It isn't something
> that I could get in an arbitrary computer store somewhere in town.
>
> Can I even burn a blueray disk with what's in Debian?
>
>
>
> Now try to explain to an arbitrary person who probably has never
> installed any OS and who asks questions like "What is an operating system?"
> and "What is a hard disk?" how to install Debian. I guess the amount of
> education required is way beyond the scope of an installer.
>
> Then there's the installer itself. It can't even do simple things, like
> make a software RAID-1 from two whole disks, let me partition the raid and
> install on it. It goes through all the installation, taking my time, and
> when it's finally almost done, it tells me it cannot install grub.
> Partitioning the disks first and making the RAID from the
> partitions doesn't work, either. It's a total failure --- sorry, but that
> sucks. (Why hasn't that been fixed in the last 3 years? Instead, there's a
> graphical installer which nobody needs and which I wanted to try because
> it might work. It freezes the computer when booting, works really great,
> yeah ...) So it took a whole day to get at least almost everything onto
> the raid, and I'm not happy with it because not everything is on the raid.
> Now explain the arbitrary person why they
> can't install Debian on a software RAID-1 and why getting close to it takes
> a whole day: "Oh it takes a whole day to install and still isn't right?
> What kind of crappy software is that? Why don't you use windoze
> or a Mac?"
>
> I'm curious, can you put windoze or macos on a software RAID?
>
>
>
> [1]: http://www.debian.org/distrib/
>
>
> --
> Debian testing amd64
>
>
>
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>
>

About the non-presence of non-free and contrib packages, I think it is
normal.
I personally use non-free softwares (well... flash, wifi drivers and
opera, for the two firsts I do not really have choice) but I know that
Debian's way is not really to provide such tools.
Ubuntu does it.

About an automated install, did you tried the "auto" way? I think I tried
it some years ago, but I do not remember if it asks about partitions.
If yes, I guess this is an issue which could be fixed.
Also, it is not really easy to find this option... I mean, user need to go
to "advanced" or equivalent menu to find it. Which is not really
automated, right?

Well, honestly, I think the better thing for a true end-user system would
be an installer which install a debian stable distro with non-free enabled
by default, at least to install flash and drivers (which are things really
needed by users). Ubuntu sounds to break itself quite often (As far as I
heard, I never tried it long enough to say "I know") because being based
on sid...
But there is also a need to avoid creating Yet Another Debian Like Distro
in my opinion. Maybe there is already one which do that? I'm lost in the
Linux multiverse, and I know the next part I'll explore will not be one of
usable by simple-users.


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Old 09-11-2012, 10:36 AM
Chris Bannister
 
Default Installation

[Please trim you posts, thanks.]

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 10:01:13AM +0200, David Cho-Lerat wrote:
> Le 11/09/2012 04:23, Weaver a écrit :
> >I get the point. It's just not an accurate or germaine one...because you
> >quoted out of context.
>
> it's "germane", now. Germaine has been a firstname for some time.
>
> More seriously : I don't mean to offend you, Weaver, but you should
> probably try to stick to "simple" English. This is an international list,

LOL, You mean all those other debian-user (debian-user-catalan ...
debian-user-vietnamese) are for show?

Do you mean words of one syllable, when you refer to "simple English"

At one time, having a rich vocabulary was desired, now its considered
pompous?

--
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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Old 09-11-2012, 11:48 AM
David Cho-Lerat
 
Default Installation

Le 11/09/2012 12:36, Chris Bannister a écrit :

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 10:01:13AM +0200, David Cho-Lerat wrote:


Le 11/09/2012 04:23, Weaver a écrit :


I get the point. It's just not an accurate or germaine one...because you
quoted out of context.


it's "germane", now. Germaine has been a firstname for some time.

More seriously : I don't mean to offend you, Weaver, but you should
probably try to stick to "simple" English. This is an international list,


LOL, You mean all those other debian-user (debian-user-catalan ...
debian-user-vietnamese) are for show?



no, I mean people on debian-user-catalan, for instance,
may also be on debian-user - in fact it's very probable.


Do you mean words of one syllable, when you refer to "simple English"




no, I mean the "Simple English Wikipedia" sort of English
(http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_English_Wikipedia)

For short : don't try to sound smart, most people are here
looking for help, not looking to be impressed by your mastery
of the English language. Or by your "clever" one-syllable joke :P


At one time, having a rich vocabulary was desired, now its considered
pompous?



I'm all for rich vocabulary, when it doesn't get in the way of getting
your point across. Do read the posts I'm talking about carefully and
I think you'll understand what I mean.


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Old 09-11-2012, 12:24 PM
lee
 
Default Installation

Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> writes:

> On Lu, 10 sep 12, 21:06:33, lee wrote:
>> David Cho-Lerat <david.lerat@asterion.fr> writes:
>> >>
>> > that's called "Debian Live" : http://live.debian.net/
>>
>> When it already exists, why isn't that part of the installer?
>
> It's a live system, how could it be part of the installer?

The question is not what is part of what, the question is what is
needed. Since you need a working computer to install an OS on a
computer, why can't we have that with an installation media so we can
switch between the actual installer and the working system simply by
pressing a key/button?

When the actual installer asks me a question I cannot answer or when I
find out I need to download something to proceed with the installation,
I can just switch to the working system and google for an answer or
download what I need. That's basically what the working system needs to
provide me with; I don't need to run gimp or to compile emacs on it.


--
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Old 09-11-2012, 12:39 PM
"Weaver"
 
Default Installation

On Tue, September 11, 2012 4:48 am, David Cho-Lerat wrote:
> Le 11/09/2012 12:36, Chris Bannister a écrit :
>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 10:01:13AM +0200, David Cho-Lerat wrote:
>>
>>> Le 11/09/2012 04:23, Weaver a écrit :
>>>
>>>> I get the point. It's just not an accurate or germaine one...because
>>>> you
>>>> quoted out of context.
>>>>
>>> it's "germane", now. Germaine has been a firstname for some time.
>>>
>>> More seriously : I don't mean to offend you, Weaver, but you should
>>> probably try to stick to "simple" English. This is an international
>>> list,
>>>
>> LOL, You mean all those other debian-user (debian-user-catalan ...
>> debian-user-vietnamese) are for show?
>>
>
> no, I mean people on debian-user-catalan, for instance,
> may also be on debian-user - in fact it's very probable.
>
>> Do you mean words of one syllable, when you refer to "simple English"
>>
>>
>
> no, I mean the "Simple English Wikipedia" sort of English
> (http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_English_Wikipedia)
>
> For short : don't try to sound smart, most people are here
> looking for help, not looking to be impressed by your mastery
> of the English language. Or by your "clever" one-syllable joke :P
>
>> At one time, having a rich vocabulary was desired, now its considered
>> pompous?
>>
>
> I'm all for rich vocabulary, when it doesn't get in the way of getting
> your point across. Do read the posts I'm talking about carefully and
> I think you'll understand what I mean.

Well, I'm sorry, but I don't think I'm pompous.

Possibly just your sense of perception?
Regards,

Weaver
--
"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government."
-- Thomas Paine



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Old 09-11-2012, 12:44 PM
lee
 
Default Installation

Chris Bannister <cbannister@slingshot.co.nz> writes:

> On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 09:06:33PM +0200, lee wrote:
>>
>> And where's the 40GB (or whatever size it is) Blueray image that has all
>> the packages plus all the stuff from non-free plus a life system plus
>> lots of documentation on it so that I can simply download that and boot
>> and press a button and it just installs and works, without requiring
>> internet access in the first place? --- The on-board ethernet card of my
>> desktop doesn't work out of the box, so how the hell am I supposed to
>> know what to do without a working computer that enables me to look for a
>> solution?
>>
>
> Mmmmm, now how much would you pay for that?

Going by what they sold Suse in some book stores for many years ago, I
would expect a price of about EUR 350--380 nowadays.

If that was the only choice available, we'd just have to pay that.


--
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Old 09-11-2012, 01:19 PM
lee
 
Default Installation

"Morel Bérenger" <berenger.morel@neutralite.org> writes:

> I personally use non-free softwares (well... flash, wifi drivers and
> opera, for the two firsts I do not really have choice) but I know that
> Debian's way is not really to provide such tools.
> Ubuntu does it.

You and I might know this. I only know it because I've been running into
problems because of it. The arbitrary clueless person doesn't know it.

> About an automated install, did you tried the "auto" way?

Yes, and it didn't work, either. It doesn't matter, though, because the
automated way doesn't create the RAID and doesn't even partition in a
way I would want. How is it supposed to know what I want?

> Well, honestly, I think the better thing for a true end-user system would
> be an installer which install a debian stable distro with non-free enabled
> by default,

Pre-installed would be better. Look at a modern HP notebook, for
example. You install the battery and you turn it on and the battery is
even charged enough so that it runs. It'll ask you what language you
want to use and what language keyboard you have and maybe for a user
name and some passwords, and that's it.

That windoze and the default setup they use suck isn't the point. You do
get a working system, and everything works. It takes only about 10
minutes, depending on how fast you are, and you don't need another
already working computer to download extra stuff or to look for
information.

That's probably what's called "end user system". It's totally useless to
me other than for preparing to put Debian on it, and the arbitrary
clueless user will be really happy with it until they begin to
understand the limitations, which they probably never will.


--
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Old 09-11-2012, 02:22 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Installation

On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 19:54:12 +0200, lee wrote:

> Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> writes:

(...)

>>>> This is usually a delusion: is not that windows or linux is more or
>>>> less easy (now or then) but how many people in your circle can
>>>> solve/cope a problem with your system.
>>>
>>> Nobody --- and that probably isn't going to change.
>>
>> For Windows, yes, it's plenty of people.
>
> No, there aren't.

In my planet, yes. Everybody I know uses Windows (starting from my mother
and ending with my company partners).

>> Remember: Windows is a toy, MacOS is a dungeon and Linux is an
>> attitude.
>
> What's your point?

My point is that one of the main obstacles for the Linux introduction
into the mass market (i.e., consumers) is not "difficulty" but the lack
of people who can help you when a problem arises.

Today, most of the user-friendly Linux distributions you can find out
there (Ubuntu, Fedora, openSUSE, Debian...) are as easier to install and
deal with as can be Windows or MacOS in the event they all have to be
installed from scratch.

So, if Linux is now accesible and easy for consumers, why still those low
number for Linux desktops? "Attitude".

When a Windows user has a problem (an hey, because of my work, I'm tired
of solving Windows problems) the user can easily find someone to fix it
so he/she stays with Windows because the problem has gone. This is not
happening when the user has Linux. Unless he/she shows a possitive
attitude, the problem will stay forever because finding someone that
knows about Linux is not that easy.

> There isn't anyone who could solve a problem they might have with
> windoze. Ask even an MSCE, and the only thing they say is "I don't
> know".

I'm a long time Windows user and there was only one time when I contacted
MS official support which finally did not solve my issue and I had to
figure out by myself. Microsoft users are one of their most valuable
assets, meaning that you don't need to contact Microsoft in order to get
a problem solved, the web is plenty of plain users that do their work :-)

>>>> Now do the same but tell them you have a problem with Konqueror. They
>>>> will close the door in our nose and say something like "The guy on
>>>> third floor is saying foolishness" :-)
>>>
>>> They would ask what konqueror is and tell you to reboot or to
>>> re-install. That's not a significant difference.
>>
>> Ha! People can't even spell "konqueror" correctly, do you expect they
>> will know what the hell is "that"?
>
> Did you read what I wrote?

Yes, and I found it funny because most people don't even know that
konqueror is a piece of software...

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 09-11-2012, 02:36 PM
lee
 
Default Installation

"Weaver" <weaver@riseup.net> writes:

> On Mon, September 10, 2012 5:10 am, lee wrote:
>> "Weaver" <weaver@riseup.net> writes:
>>
>>> On Sun, September 9, 2012 5:18 am, lee wrote:
>>>> "Weaver" <weaver@riseup.net> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> But we are talking about Debian.
>>>>> Specifically partitioning/file system decision making during install.
>>>>
>>>> When else would you make such a decision if not before starting the
>>>> installation? You can't install software without a place to put it.
>>>
>>> You are quoting out of context.
>>
>> No, I'm not, you didn't get my point.
>
> I get the point. It's just not an accurate or germaine one...because you
> quoted out of context.

You still didn't get the point.

>>> What I am saying there needs advisory material placed into the
>>> installation process so that newbies can make INFORMED decisions and
>>
>> People aren't going to spend the time it would take them to learn
>> everything they need to make informed decisions about the options the
>> installer gives them, no matter how much documentation you put into it.
>
> And here you do it again.
>
> This is one small page, with information pertaining to partitioning and
> file-systems. There is no need to put documentation into the installer
> pertaining to every subject it addresses.
> There simply isn't a need that I can see.
>
> Why do you distort the direction of the discussion to that degree?

I'm not distorting anything, lol. You come along and pick up a tiny
little detail (partitioning) involved in the process of installing
Debian on a computer, and you vote for putting some information into the
installer to educate the totally clueless user about partitioning. My
point --- which you don't get --- besides others is that it takes a lot
more education than that to turn the totally clueless user into someone
who understands and knows what they are doing. You might agree to that
since you seem to have the assumption that once the clueless user has
installed Debian, they would venture to explore it in more detail and to
educate themselves and that they would eventually become someone who
understands and knows what they are doing. Some people might actually do
that and most people probably won't.

Have you thought about all the things you would have to explain to the
clueless user to enable them to decide what partitioning they want?
Partitioning involves RAID and lvm, it involves file systems and what
the computer is going to be used for; it involves installing a boot
loader somewhere, and it might involve other operating systems and/or
virtual machines that are or will be installed on the same computer. It
involves considering the kind of available storage devices since you
might want to use an SSD for a different purpose than your conventional
hard disk, and you might want to put some things on the faster disks you
have rather than on the slower ones and deciding where to put your swap
partitions. It involves considering reliability issues and backup
strategies --- and probably a lot more I'm too lazy to think of. And
what if something doesn't work?

If you think you can explain all that to the clueless user in 10 or 20
lines of 80cpl text you can put into the installer with a chance of the
clueless user reading them, I'd like to see what you'd put in. Just
don't dumbfound the user by putting some nonsense and unhelpful
blah-blah into it that doesn't even touch the point like the so-called
"documentation" does that you get with windoze.

Keep in mind that partitioning isn't the only part of the installation
process. Maybe you now understand why I'm suggesting that deciding about
the partitioning is something to be done /before/ the installation
rather than something to be decided by a clueless user who's stuck
without a working computer somewhere in the installation process. If
that user has to ask "What is partitioning?", they are at the wrong
place.

>> For more than a decade now you need a working computer to install an
>> operating system on another one so that you can acquire information and
>> additional software as needed. Why isn't that included in the installer?
>
> Because that is an issue that somebody with a basic mastery over their
> system and sufficient experience with Debian is capable of chasing down
> themselves.

They can do that by making sure they have a working computer at
hand. That shouldn't be needed.

> This discussion is centred round the issue a newbie would
> experience when confronted by the partitioning stage of the installer.

You are on the wrong approach if you want to limit the perspective to
only one issue. Besides, you also need to consider that not only
clueless users install Debian.

>> Just boot from the installation media and be presented with a working
>> system and an installer, allowing you to switch between them.
>>
>> For those who don't want to or are unable to learn, have a button they
>> can press to perform the installation, no matter what and no questions
>> asked. However, those are the kind of people who better stay away from
>> computers, which makes it doubtful how useful such a thing would be.
>
> That is not what is being advocated and I don't see the relevance with
> Debian either.
> The whole exercise is a requirement to advise.
> Not remove choice or the power of personal decision making over even a
> newbie's system. An advisory, of this nature, as I have already said,
> would be the first step that supplies that revelatory "Ah Hah!" moment
> that encourages exploration. Not one that inhibits access to knowledge.

Well, that is your imagination of users educating themselves about how
their computer and the software works. Why don't you want to give such
users a working system that, besides other advantages, allows them to
educate themselves as thoroughly as they see fit while or even before
they install Debian on their computers? Why don't you want to give users
who don't want to educate themselves the option to simply press a button
and as a result have Debian installed on their computers so that they
can do whatever they want?

You can advocate dumbfounding users by putting a few lines of text into
the installer. I hate dumbfounding users like that, and that some users
want to be dumbfounded doesn't mean that I have to do or to propose
it. What you propose is contradictory to what you seem to want, which is
something you probably haven't realised yet. I'm telling you that there
is another option which I think is much better, and you want to totally
ignore it and accuse me of distorting things (lmao).

So why did you bring this topic up for discussion when you don't want to
discuss it? You seem to have already decided what you want, and nobody
prevents you from doing it. Don't expect me or someone else to tell you
that you should do it. I'm telling you that you shouldn't.


--
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