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Old 09-11-2012, 02:23 AM
"Weaver"
 
Default Installation

On Mon, September 10, 2012 5:10 am, lee wrote:
> "Weaver" <weaver@riseup.net> writes:
>
>> On Sun, September 9, 2012 5:18 am, lee wrote:
>>> "Weaver" <weaver@riseup.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> But we are talking about Debian.
>>>> Specifically partitioning/file system decision making during install.
>>>
>>> When else would you make such a decision if not before starting the
>>> installation? You can't install software without a place to put it.
>>
>> You are quoting out of context.
>
> No, I'm not, you didn't get my point.

I get the point. It's just not an accurate or germaine one...because you
quoted out of context.
>
>> What I am saying there needs advisory material placed into the
>> installation process so that newbies can make INFORMED decisions and
>
> People aren't going to spend the time it would take them to learn
> everything they need to make informed decisions about the options the
> installer gives them, no matter how much documentation you put into it.

And here you do it again.

This is one small page, with information pertaining to partitioning and
file-systems. There is no need to put documentation into the installer
pertaining to every subject it addresses.
There simply isn't a need that I can see.

Why do you distort the direction of the discussion to that degree?
>
> For more than a decade now you need a working computer to install an
> operating system on another one so that you can acquire information and
> additional software as needed. Why isn't that included in the installer?

Because that is an issue that somebody with a basic mastery over their
system and sufficient experience with Debian is capable of chasing down
themselves. This discussion is centred round the issue a newbie would
experience when confronted by the partitioning stage of the installer.

> Just boot from the installation media and be presented with a working
> system and an installer, allowing you to switch between them.
>
> For those who don't want to or are unable to learn, have a button they
> can press to perform the installation, no matter what and no questions
> asked. However, those are the kind of people who better stay away from
> computers, which makes it doubtful how useful such a thing would be.

That is not what is being advocated and I don't see the relevance with
Debian either.
The whole exercise is a requirement to advise.
Not remove choice or the power of personal decision making over even a
newbie's system. An advisory, of this nature, as I have already said,
would be the first step that supplies that revelatory "Ah Hah!" moment
that encourages exploration. Not one that inhibits access to knowledge.
Regards,

Weaver
--
"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government."
-- Thomas Paine



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Old 09-11-2012, 02:25 AM
"Weaver"
 
Default Installation

On Mon, September 10, 2012 4:33 am, lee wrote:
> "Weaver" <weaver@riseup.net> writes:
>
>> My problem has been, for quite some number of years now, of not just
>> considering my own requirements.
>> I tend to think a little more (w)holistically, because if the context
>> isn't advanced, any appearance of personal advancement is no more than
>> illusion.
>
> So if you learn or invent something not a lot of other people care or
> think about, that isn't an advancement but only on illusion? I guess
> humans would be extinct since long if they were all thinking like that.

I don't think you understood what I wrote.
At all.
Regards,

Weaver
--
"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government."
-- Thomas Paine



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Old 09-11-2012, 02:30 AM
"Weaver"
 
Default Installation

On Mon, September 10, 2012 7:06 am, Camaleón wrote:
> On Sun, 09 Sep 2012 14:57:20 -0700, Weaver wrote:
>
>> On Sun, September 9, 2012 7:43 am, Camaleón wrote:
>
>>> You mean you got your linux preinstalled within you computer? That
>>> would be nice but I'm afraid not the norm :-)
>>
>> No, I mean that I have always had to install/reinstall Windows, because
>> the software has usually been as broken as the secondhand boxes.
>
> Ah, sure, reinstalling Windows is a usual task for non-techies. They tend
> to fill too much their systems with crappy software but Windows is not
> the culprit here, but users. Look, we always end in users :-)

That's it!
I used to be a crappy user!

>
>>> That's a different user case. But then, Windows installation is not
>>> that straight-forward because you may have to provide some basic
>>> drivers (for the storage controller) and manually partition the hard
>>> disk, choose the file system to use, etc.
>>
>> I don't remember anything like that, but I should qualify that with the
>> info that I haven't dealt with Windows since XP, which is when I finally
>> gave up on it.
>
> The last installation I did for a Windows system it was also a Windows XP
> box and for the task I needed to create a floopy disk with the
> corresponding AHCI drivers because the installer did not recognize the
> controller and gave a nice BSOD (I wonder what a non-techie user would
> have done in this case >:-) )

Probably the hardware was too new for the operating system.
As I said, I had old crappy boxes, too.
I remember that I was running 98 SE on a couple of them, so they wouldn't
have been the latest fashion in motherboards.

Enforced obsolescence.
The Microsoft way!
>
> But yes, installing Windows completely from scratch is not an easy task.
>
>>>> From memory, it ran itself.
>>>
>>> I really doubt it.
>>
>> No, really.
>> My only recollections are of that blue screen with a loading indicator
>> running across it, which told me, after my first couple of installs,
>> that I could go and make another cup of coffee.
>
> Maybe is that you were lucky and all the hardware and devices were a bit
> old and thus properly detected by the installer itself because Windows
> attached the needed drivers. But of course, this is not always the case
> and when problem arises (in Windows, I mean), it can be very difficult to
> debug.
>
>>>> There were perhaps a couple of questions that didn't require reference
>>>> to Einstein, but that was all.
>>>
>>> Not the questions the "joe" user is able to provide without help.
>>
>> Perhaps this has come along lately, as an inducement for Joe-User to go
>> for the OEM variety, so they can cut back on their totally inefficien
>> support staff.
>
> (...)
>
> OEM versions of Windows have been always there (in fact, most of the
> notebooks/netbooks only provide the OEM version). For desktop computers
> or servers that you can build by yourself, it's easier to get an empty
> disk and then "buy" a copy of the full (non-OEMized) Windows installation
> disk (well, "buy" enclosed in quotes because a high percent of Windows
> users do not pay a cent for their OS, you know...).

I think you have to keep those ones off-line?
Regards,

Weaver.
--
"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government."
-- Thomas Paine



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Old 09-11-2012, 02:38 AM
"Weaver"
 
Default Installation

On Mon, September 10, 2012 8:19 am, Chris Bannister wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 09, 2012 at 02:23:10PM -0700, Weaver wrote:
>> But this, again, is not what is being advocated.
>> I see nothing wrong with a small educational process being incorporated
>> into the install procedure.
>
> There is the installation-guide¹.

The average newbie doesn't know about that until about a month after the
first successful install.........whenever that may be according to the
individual case.

It wouldn't be a good idea to put
> screes of explanation in the installer, would you want to read it all
> every time you installed a system? I could see the possibility of
> becoming "<enter>" or "<space>" happy.

'Screeds' are not suggested.
I might have to write something up to demonstrate.
>
>> The average end/home user would, in all likelihood, not even be
>> interested
>> in LVM initially and for, probably, some considerable time after that.
>
> Agreed. But the person who wants to install Debian is not the average
> end/home user.

Exactly, but that's the majority market and I don't see anything wrong
woth aiming for that.

Now, Ubuntu, that is more like the average end/home
> user.

Never tried it, but have found Mageia, Trisquel and VectorLinux interesting.
All of which I prefer to Linux Mint, which is what everybody has been
raving about lately.
Regards,

Weaver
--
"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government."
-- Thomas Paine



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Old 09-11-2012, 02:49 AM
"Weaver"
 
Default Installation

On Mon, September 10, 2012 9:32 am, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Mon, 2012-09-10 at 14:10 +0200, lee wrote:
>> For those who don't want to or are unable to learn, have a button they
>> can press to perform the installation, no matter what and no questions
>> asked. However, those are the kind of people who better stay away from
>> computers, which makes it doubtful how useful such a thing would be.
>
> Different users, different needs. A DVB-T receiver is a computer, a DAT
> recorder is a computer, perhaps your car is a computer, at least all
> this things use computers. Some people know how to use a DVB-T receiver,
> a DAT recorder and they can drive a car. Nobody expect them to know
> details about the receiver, the recorder and the car.
>
> IMO Linux for too many people is the Sangraal and they enjoy to diss
> people who have no knowledge about computers.

Frankly, I think many comments are made in the attempt to maintain that.
It is possible to have both.
I installed the Debian version of Linux Mint to have a look at it and
noticed a comment in the onsite forum asking when 'the KDE Version' would
be coming out.

I found aptitude underneath it all and laughed.
In about half an hour I had my usual mixed Debian system of some Gnome
apps, some KDE, a sprinkle of XFCE and Enlightenment to hold it all
together. Nothing new there!
>
> A computer is a tool. The tool has to fit to the user needs. The more a
> user needs to learn about things that have nothing to do with the usage,
> the less good an OS is for averaged users. Linux isn't a good OS for
> averaged users.
>
> It won't harm to have empathy.

Not at all.
>
> FWIW my favorite distro is Arch Linux, it fit best to some of my needs
> and of course isn't good for averaged users. Distros as Debian, Ubuntu,
> Suse, Fedora IMO could keep their installers, but the used language
> should become understandable for averaged computer users. There's no
> need to use terminology that much. "Partition", "host" etc. also could
> be explained in layman's terms. For the advanced user there still should
> be an option.

That's right!
The configurability of Debian answers to all tastes and once a new user
has had a little time to become orientated, they will do what we all do
and start to play.
>
> The biggest problem IMO is to install basics. For an advanced user Arch,
> Gentoo etc. is very good, because the user has to install what is
> needed. Arch for example doesn't install X by default. For Debian, Suse
> etc. an installer already installs tons of software, that most users
> never ever will need.

And some they should!
MC isn't installed by default and I think it should be.
Nano is there and useful to reconfigure /etc/apt/sources.list, but there
are many other packages that I have never used.

It's ok, since this one day should enable
> automatically installation.

Regards,

Weaver
--
"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government."
-- Thomas Paine



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Old 09-11-2012, 05:45 AM
Andrei POPESCU
 
Default Installation

On Lu, 10 sep 12, 21:06:33, lee wrote:
> David Cho-Lerat <david.lerat@asterion.fr> writes:
> >>
> > that's called "Debian Live" : http://live.debian.net/
>
> When it already exists, why isn't that part of the installer?

It's a live system, how could it be part of the installer?

> It's a typical page, btw:
>
> 1.) How do you find this website? Is it referred to anywhere from [1]?
>
> 2.) How the hell are you supposed to know what to download?
>
> 3.) How do you download and put it on a storage media I can boot from
> without a working computer? (Most ppl will probably just copy what
> they downloaded to their USB stick or maybe burn the file on a CD
> and then find out they can't boot from it.)

Work in progress, see #686819

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Old 09-11-2012, 06:00 AM
Andrei POPESCU
 
Default Installation

On Lu, 10 sep 12, 19:30:47, Weaver wrote:
> >
> > OEM versions of Windows have been always there (in fact, most of the
> > notebooks/netbooks only provide the OEM version). For desktop computers
> > or servers that you can build by yourself, it's easier to get an empty
> > disk and then "buy" a copy of the full (non-OEMized) Windows installation
> > disk (well, "buy" enclosed in quotes because a high percent of Windows
> > users do not pay a cent for their OS, you know...).
>
> I think you have to keep those ones off-line?

That would mean 70-80% of Romanian home users[1] (and lots of SOHO users
too) should be offline. Yeah, right!

I've seen a completely remastered Windows XP install iso of about 250
MB, with all Service Packs available at the time applied and several
other common tweaks to increase network performance and such, all
explained during the installation (instead of the usual marketing
stuff).

The advances in Windows-cracking technology have been amazing

Unfortunately updates are turned off (of course), which makes those
systems easy prey for viruses/worms/etc. and they end up in botnets

[1] not 90%+ anymore, because laptops are often bought with Windows
pre-installed.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Old 09-11-2012, 08:01 AM
David Cho-Lerat
 
Default Installation

Le 11/09/2012 04:23, Weaver a écrit :

I get the point. It's just not an accurate or germaine one...because you
quoted out of context.



it's "germane", now. Germaine has been a firstname for some time.

More seriously : I don't mean to offend you, Weaver, but you should
probably try to stick to "simple" English. This is an international list,
and I'm betting some people have no idea what you're on about -
to the others, your posts just sound a little pompous



What I am saying there needs advisory material placed into the
installation process so that newbies can make INFORMED decisions and


People aren't going to spend the time it would take them to learn
everything they need to make informed decisions about the options the
installer gives them, no matter how much documentation you put into it.


And here you do it again.

This is one small page, with information pertaining to partitioning and
file-systems. There is no need to put documentation into the installer
pertaining to every subject it addresses.
There simply isn't a need that I can see.

Why do you distort the direction of the discussion to that degree?


For more than a decade now you need a working computer to install an
operating system on another one so that you can acquire information and
additional software as needed. Why isn't that included in the installer?


Because that is an issue that somebody with a basic mastery over their
system and sufficient experience with Debian is capable of chasing down
themselves. This discussion is centred round the issue a newbie would
experience when confronted by the partitioning stage of the installer.



Just boot from the installation media and be presented with a working
system and an installer, allowing you to switch between them.

For those who don't want to or are unable to learn, have a button they
can press to perform the installation, no matter what and no questions
asked. However, those are the kind of people who better stay away from
computers, which makes it doubtful how useful such a thing would be.


That is not what is being advocated and I don't see the relevance with
Debian either.
The whole exercise is a requirement to advise.
Not remove choice or the power of personal decision making over even a
newbie's system. An advisory, of this nature, as I have already said,
would be the first step that supplies that revelatory "Ah Hah!" moment
that encourages exploration. Not one that inhibits access to knowledge.
Regards,

Weaver



--
David Cho-Lerat
Mobile : +33 623 057 174


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Old 09-11-2012, 08:01 AM
Chris Bannister
 
Default Installation

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 08:26:15PM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Lu, 10 sep 12, 14:06:07, Camaleón wrote:
> > disk (well, "buy" enclosed in quotes because a high percent of Windows
> > users do not pay a cent for their OS, you know...).
>
> An Microsoft has no real incentive to force them to, because people
> would just look for alternatives.

Its almost impossible to get it going if you don't have that dammned
product number. That alone, should be enough to push people to Linux.

--
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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Old 09-11-2012, 08:10 AM
Chris Bannister
 
Default Installation

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 09:06:33PM +0200, lee wrote:
>
> And where's the 40GB (or whatever size it is) Blueray image that has all
> the packages plus all the stuff from non-free plus a life system plus
> lots of documentation on it so that I can simply download that and boot
> and press a button and it just installs and works, without requiring
> internet access in the first place? --- The on-board ethernet card of my
> desktop doesn't work out of the box, so how the hell am I supposed to
> know what to do without a working computer that enables me to look for a
> solution?
>

Mmmmm, now how much would you pay for that?

--
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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