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Old 09-10-2012, 02:06 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Installation

On Sun, 09 Sep 2012 14:57:20 -0700, Weaver wrote:

> On Sun, September 9, 2012 7:43 am, Camaleón wrote:

>> You mean you got your linux preinstalled within you computer? That
>> would be nice but I'm afraid not the norm :-)
>
> No, I mean that I have always had to install/reinstall Windows, because
> the software has usually been as broken as the secondhand boxes.

Ah, sure, reinstalling Windows is a usual task for non-techies. They tend
to fill too much their systems with crappy software but Windows is not
the culprit here, but users. Look, we always end in users :-)

>> That's a different user case. But then, Windows installation is not
>> that straight-forward because you may have to provide some basic
>> drivers (for the storage controller) and manually partition the hard
>> disk, choose the file system to use, etc.
>
> I don't remember anything like that, but I should qualify that with the
> info that I haven't dealt with Windows since XP, which is when I finally
> gave up on it.

The last installation I did for a Windows system it was also a Windows XP
box and for the task I needed to create a floopy disk with the
corresponding AHCI drivers because the installer did not recognize the
controller and gave a nice BSOD (I wonder what a non-techie user would
have done in this case >:-) )

But yes, installing Windows completely from scratch is not an easy task.

>>> From memory, it ran itself.
>>
>> I really doubt it.
>
> No, really.
> My only recollections are of that blue screen with a loading indicator
> running across it, which told me, after my first couple of installs,
> that I could go and make another cup of coffee.

Maybe is that you were lucky and all the hardware and devices were a bit
old and thus properly detected by the installer itself because Windows
attached the needed drivers. But of course, this is not always the case
and when problem arises (in Windows, I mean), it can be very difficult to
debug.

>>> There were perhaps a couple of questions that didn't require reference
>>> to Einstein, but that was all.
>>
>> Not the questions the "joe" user is able to provide without help.
>
> Perhaps this has come along lately, as an inducement for Joe-User to go
> for the OEM variety, so they can cut back on their totally inefficien
> support staff.

(...)

OEM versions of Windows have been always there (in fact, most of the
notebooks/netbooks only provide the OEM version). For desktop computers
or servers that you can build by yourself, it's easier to get an empty
disk and then "buy" a copy of the full (non-OEMized) Windows installation
disk (well, "buy" enclosed in quotes because a high percent of Windows
users do not pay a cent for their OS, you know...).

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 09-10-2012, 03:15 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Installation

On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 13:20:30 +0200, lee wrote:

> Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 09 Sep 2012 18:04:00 +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
>>
>>> Linux on desktop has gone a long way. And I think it is still on a
>>> journey.
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> This is usually a delusion: is not that windows or linux is more or
>> less easy (now or then) but how many people in your circle can
>> solve/cope a problem with your system.
>
> Nobody --- and that probably isn't going to change.

For Windows, yes, it's plenty of people. For Linux you can spend the
whole day finding them that you'll find... one in miles away? :-)

>> Just run a simple experiment: knock at your neighbors' door and tell
>> them you have a problem with your Internet Explorer; there's a high
>> chance that someone can help.
>
> There's no chance they could help. Neither any useful documentation, nor
> the source code are available, so if it doesn't work, reboot, and if it
> still doesn't work, re-install. That's all the options you have.

I don't know what planet you are from, but here in the Earth, a planet of
the Milky Way galaxy (just to help for localization purposes though this
theory is being discussed as some think it could come from Sagittarius :-
P) you don't even need something like a manual or documentation for
solving a Windows related issue. Even your little brother (aged 6) can do
it :-)

Remember: Windows is a toy, MacOS is a dungeon and Linux is an attitude.

>> Now do the same but tell them you have a problem with Konqueror. They
>> will close the door in our nose and say something like "The guy on
>> third floor is saying foolishness" :-)
>
> They would ask what konqueror is and tell you to reboot or to
> re-install. That's not a significant difference.

Ha! People can't even spell "konqueror" correctly, do you expect they
will know what the hell is "that"?

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 09-10-2012, 03:19 PM
Chris Bannister
 
Default Installation

On Sun, Sep 09, 2012 at 02:23:10PM -0700, Weaver wrote:
> But this, again, is not what is being advocated.
> I see nothing wrong with a small educational process being incorporated
> into the install procedure.

There is the installation-guide¹. It wouldn't be a good idea to put
screes of explanation in the installer, would you want to read it all
every time you installed a system? I could see the possibility of
becoming "<enter>" or "<space>" happy.

> The average end/home user would, in all likelihood, not even be interested
> in LVM initially and for, probably, some considerable time after that.

Agreed. But the person who wants to install Debian is not the average
end/home user. Now, Ubuntu, that is more like the average end/home
user.


¹http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?pkg=installation-guide-i386;dist=unstable

--
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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Old 09-10-2012, 03:46 PM
David Cho-Lerat
 
Default Installation

For more than a decade now you need a working computer to install an
operating system on another one so that you can acquire information and
additional software as needed. Why isn't that included in the installer?
Just boot from the installation media and be presented with a working
system and an installer, allowing you to switch between them.



that's called "Debian Live" : http://live.debian.net/


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Old 09-10-2012, 04:32 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Installation

On Mon, 2012-09-10 at 14:10 +0200, lee wrote:
> For those who don't want to or are unable to learn, have a button they
> can press to perform the installation, no matter what and no questions
> asked. However, those are the kind of people who better stay away from
> computers, which makes it doubtful how useful such a thing would be.

Different users, different needs. A DVB-T receiver is a computer, a DAT
recorder is a computer, perhaps your car is a computer, at least all
this things use computers. Some people know how to use a DVB-T receiver,
a DAT recorder and they can drive a car. Nobody expect them to know
details about the receiver, the recorder and the car.

IMO Linux for too many people is the Sangraal and they enjoy to diss
people who have no knowledge about computers.

A computer is a tool. The tool has to fit to the user needs. The more a
user needs to learn about things that have nothing to do with the usage,
the less good an OS is for averaged users. Linux isn't a good OS for
averaged users.

It won't harm to have empathy.

FWIW my favorite distro is Arch Linux, it fit best to some of my needs
and of course isn't good for averaged users. Distros as Debian, Ubuntu,
Suse, Fedora IMO could keep their installers, but the used language
should become understandable for averaged computer users. There's no
need to use terminology that much. "Partition", "host" etc. also could
be explained in layman's terms. For the advanced user there still should
be an option.

The biggest problem IMO is to install basics. For an advanced user Arch,
Gentoo etc. is very good, because the user has to install what is
needed. Arch for example doesn't install X by default. For Debian, Suse
etc. an installer already installs tons of software, that most users
never ever will need. It's ok, since this one day should enable
automatically installation.

Regards,
Ralf


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Old 09-10-2012, 05:22 PM
Andrei POPESCU
 
Default Installation

On Lu, 10 sep 12, 14:05:05, "Morel Bérenger" wrote:
>
> About language, I wonder if it would be possible to auto-detect from the
> the Internet: many websites are able to guess more or less precisely. I do
> not know how they do that (maybe by knowing on which proxy the connection
> go?), but maybe it could also be used by an installer when it have network
> access.

All sites I know except debian.org use geo location. The results can be
wrong or even offensive to some persons.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Old 09-10-2012, 05:26 PM
Andrei POPESCU
 
Default Installation

On Lu, 10 sep 12, 14:06:07, Camaleón wrote:
> disk (well, "buy" enclosed in quotes because a high percent of Windows
> users do not pay a cent for their OS, you know...).

An Microsoft has no real incentive to force them to, because people
would just look for alternatives.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Old 09-10-2012, 05:54 PM
lee
 
Default Installation

Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> writes:

> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 13:20:30 +0200, lee wrote:
>
>> Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Sun, 09 Sep 2012 18:04:00 +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
>>>
>>>> Linux on desktop has gone a long way. And I think it is still on a
>>>> journey.
>>>
>>> (...)
>>>
>>> This is usually a delusion: is not that windows or linux is more or
>>> less easy (now or then) but how many people in your circle can
>>> solve/cope a problem with your system.
>>
>> Nobody --- and that probably isn't going to change.
>
> For Windows, yes, it's plenty of people.

No, there aren't.

>>> Just run a simple experiment: knock at your neighbors' door and tell
>>> them you have a problem with your Internet Explorer; there's a high
>>> chance that someone can help.
>>
>> There's no chance they could help. Neither any useful documentation, nor
>> the source code are available, so if it doesn't work, reboot, and if it
>> still doesn't work, re-install. That's all the options you have.
>
> I don't know what planet you are from, but here in the Earth, a planet of
> the Milky Way galaxy (just to help for localization purposes though this
> theory is being discussed as some think it could come from Sagittarius :-
> P) you don't even need something like a manual or documentation for
> solving a Windows related issue. Even your little brother (aged 6) can do
> it :-)
>
> Remember: Windows is a toy, MacOS is a dungeon and Linux is an attitude.

What's your point? There isn't anyone who could solve a problem they
might have with windoze. Ask even an MSCE, and the only thing they say
is "I don't know".

>>> Now do the same but tell them you have a problem with Konqueror. They
>>> will close the door in our nose and say something like "The guy on
>>> third floor is saying foolishness" :-)
>>
>> They would ask what konqueror is and tell you to reboot or to
>> re-install. That's not a significant difference.
>
> Ha! People can't even spell "konqueror" correctly, do you expect they
> will know what the hell is "that"?

Did you read what I wrote?


--
Debian testing amd64


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Old 09-10-2012, 07:06 PM
lee
 
Default Installation

David Cho-Lerat <david.lerat@asterion.fr> writes:

>> For more than a decade now you need a working computer to install an
>> operating system on another one so that you can acquire information and
>> additional software as needed. Why isn't that included in the installer?
>> Just boot from the installation media and be presented with a working
>> system and an installer, allowing you to switch between them.
>>
>>
> that's called "Debian Live" : http://live.debian.net/

When it already exists, why isn't that part of the installer?

It's a typical page, btw:

1.) How do you find this website? Is it referred to anywhere from [1]?

2.) How the hell are you supposed to know what to download?

3.) How do you download and put it on a storage media I can boot from
without a working computer? (Most ppl will probably just copy what
they downloaded to their USB stick or maybe burn the file on a CD
and then find out they can't boot from it.)


And look at [1]:

It's difficult to figure out what to download. It's very difficult to
find the installer if you want to install testing.

And then you have downloaded it and start installing on your laptop and
it won't work because your wireless card (or something else) doesn't
work. It probably doesn't work with the live image, either.

Do you seriously expect ppl to figure out how to install Debian? The
documentation they have on their websites isn't very good, that's why I
say "typical page" above.

And where's the 40GB (or whatever size it is) Blueray image that has all
the packages plus all the stuff from non-free plus a life system plus
lots of documentation on it so that I can simply download that and boot
and press a button and it just installs and works, without requiring
internet access in the first place? --- The on-board ethernet card of my
desktop doesn't work out of the box, so how the hell am I supposed to
know what to do without a working computer that enables me to look for a
solution?

And where do I go for the downloading and burning? It isn't something
that I could get in an arbitrary computer store somewhere in town.

Can I even burn a blueray disk with what's in Debian?


Now try to explain to an arbitrary person who probably has never
installed any OS and who asks questions like "What is an operating
system?" and "What is a hard disk?" how to install Debian. I guess the
amount of education required is way beyond the scope of an installer.

Then there's the installer itself. It can't even do simple things, like
make a software RAID-1 from two whole disks, let me partition the raid
and install on it. It goes through all the installation, taking my time,
and when it's finally almost done, it tells me it cannot install
grub. Partitioning the disks first and making the RAID from the
partitions doesn't work, either. It's a total failure --- sorry, but
that sucks. (Why hasn't that been fixed in the last 3 years? Instead,
there's a graphical installer which nobody needs and which I wanted to
try because it might work. It freezes the computer when booting, works
really great, yeah ...) So it took a whole day to get at least almost
everything onto the raid, and I'm not happy with it because not
everything is on the raid. Now explain the arbitrary person why they
can't install Debian on a software RAID-1 and why getting close to it
takes a whole day: "Oh it takes a whole day to install and still isn't
right? What kind of crappy software is that? Why don't you use windoze
or a Mac?"

I'm curious, can you put windoze or macos on a software RAID?


[1]: http://www.debian.org/distrib/

--
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Old 09-11-2012, 02:10 AM
"Weaver"
 
Default Installation

On Mon, September 10, 2012 5:05 am, "Morel Bérenger" wrote:
> Le Lun 10 septembre 2012 10:42, Ralf Mardorf a écrit :
>> On Sun, 2012-09-09 at 19:13 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>>
>>> On Du, 09 sep 12, 15:05:44, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> From what I read you can even install Debian to a fresh box by just
>>>> hitting enter all the time. I never tried this, but you have even
>>>> guided partitioning in the installer. So what?
>>>
>>> No you can't, the "Do you want to format these partions?" question
>>> defaults to "No"
>>>
>>> (probably to avoid someone hitting Enter before having a good look)
>>>
>>
>>
>> Passwords. You even can't type any password you like to use and
>> simply hit enter.
>>
>>
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>> listmaster@lists.debian.org Archive:
>> http://lists.debian.org/1347266554.11998.70.camel@precise
>>
>>
>>
>
> The only way to address such an issue would be to add some text explaining
> what a password could be. At least, it does not seem hard to do?
>
> I also agree that the partitioning step can not be understandable to a
> newbie.
>
> About language, I wonder if it would be possible to auto-detect from the
> the Internet: many websites are able to guess more or less precisely. I do
> not know how they do that (maybe by knowing on which proxy the connection
> go?), but maybe it could also be used by an installer when it have network
> access.
> The problem is that there is in that case a need to have loaded network
> modules and to effectively have a connection.
> Do not misunderstand me, I do not want to say that it is hard for me to
> choose my language, just that if what you want is to reduce the number of
> question to have an install process which can do everything automated,
> such trick could help.
>
> PS: 1 have read the whole discussion, but I see no interest in guessing
> why linux is not as used by users as windows... Or, to me more honest, I
> only play with that kind of troll topic on a forum I am used to, hidden
> behind a pseudo.

Well, I actually wouldn't refer to it as a troll topic.
To me it is an issue that is preventing uptake.
Regards,

Weaver.
--
"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government."
-- Thomas Paine



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