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Old 09-09-2012, 09:57 PM
"Weaver"
 
Default Installation

On Sun, September 9, 2012 7:43 am, Camaleón wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 18:03:30 -0700, Weaver wrote:
>
>> On Sat, September 8, 2012 8:51 am, Camaleón wrote:
>
> (...)
>
>>>> The reason they don't is the install procedure.
>>>
>>> (...)
>>>
>>> I think it's not that easy.
>>>
>>> First, because "untechie" users neither have to install Windows nor
>>> MacOS as both usually come along with the computer in a pre-installed
>>> form thus they only have to provide some basic data.
>>
>> Yes, a couple have made this point, but from my own personal experience,
>> it's not the case.
>
> You mean you got your linux preinstalled within you computer? That would
> be nice but I'm afraid not the norm :-)

No, I mean that I have always had to install/reinstall Windows, because
the software has usually been as broken as the secondhand boxes.
>
>> I am not what you could call 'financially endowed' and always obtained
>> older and, in many cases, in complete boxes. I couldn't afford the brand
>> new OEM boxes, so always had to install Windows, when I used it, myself.
>> I had to buy that.
>
> That's a different user case. But then, Windows installation is not that
> straight-forward because you may have to provide some basic drivers (for
> the storage controller) and manually partition the hard disk, choose the
> file system to use, etc.

I don't remember anything like that, but I should qualify that with the
info that I haven't dealt with Windows since XP, which is when I finally
gave up on it.
>
>> From memory, it ran itself.
>
> I really doubt it.

No, really.
My only recollections are of that blue screen with a loading indicator
running across it, which told me, after my first couple of installs, that
I could go and make another cup of coffee.
>
>> There were perhaps a couple of questions that didn't require reference
>> to Einstein, but that was all.
>
> Not the questions the "joe" user is able to provide without help.

Perhaps this has come along lately, as an inducement for Joe-User to go
for the OEM variety, so they can cut back on their totally inefficien
support staff.
>
>> Nothing anywhere near as complex as an expert Debian install, which is
>> what I prefer now.
>> Not to the point of being one of the 'High-Riders', but I'm getting
>> there. Regards,
>
> Well, it would be more fair to compare the Windows installer with Debian
> grahical installer that is the deafult. And of course, not with the
> expert installer; as its name indicates, is not for beginners ;-)

Well, no, I'm not advocating they do that, either.
I mean that the expert install is only what I prefer.
Regards,

Weaver.
--
"The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al
Qaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a
propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an
identified entity representing
the 'devil' only in order to drive the TV watcher to accept a unified
international leadership for a war against terrorism.
The country behind this propaganda is the US . . ."
-- Former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook


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Old 09-09-2012, 10:09 PM
"Weaver"
 
Default Installation

On Sun, September 9, 2012 1:47 pm, Doug wrote:
> On 09/09/2012 03:04 AM, Weaver wrote:
>> On Sat, September 8, 2012 6:33 pm, Doug wrote:
>>> On 09/08/2012 09:03 PM, Weaver wrote:
>>>> On Sat, September 8, 2012 8:51 am, Camaleón wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 13:37:55 -0700, Weaver wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I know how hard it can be to see the forest when you are too close
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the trees, so I thought I would re-post something I put up in
>>>>>> another
>>>>>> forum where Miguel de Icaza's recent communication was being
>>>>>> discussed
>>>>>> and in answer to Vaughan-Nicholl's recent article of
>>>>>> semi-acceptance.
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>> The most 'untechie' person on the planet can use any Linux
>>>>>> distribution
>>>>>> once it is installed.
>>>>> (...)
>>>>>
>>>>>> The reason they don't is the install procedure.
>>>>> (...)
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it's not that easy.
>>>>>
>>>>> First, because "untechie" users neither have to install Windows nor
>>>>> MacOS
>>>>> as both usually come along with the computer in a pre-installed form
>>>>> thus
>>>>> they only have to provide some basic data.
>>>> Yes, a couple have made this point, but from my own personal
>>>> experience,
>>>> it's not the case.
>>>>
>>>> I am not what you could call 'financially endowed' and always obtained
>>>> older and, in many cases, in complete boxes.
>>>> I couldn't afford the brand new OEM boxes, so always had to install
>>>> Windows, when I used it, myself.
>>>> I had to buy that.
>>>>
>>>> >From memory, it ran itself.
>>>> There were perhaps a couple of questions that didn't require reference
>>>> to
>>>> Einstein, but that was all.
>>>>
>>>> Nothing anywhere near as complex as an expert Debian install, which is
>>>> what I prefer now.
>>>> Not to the point of being one of the 'High-Riders', but I'm getting
>>>> there.
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Weaver.
>>>>
>>> Don't know about Debian, it's been a while since I installed that, but
>>> I
>>> *have* installed a few others,
>>> and in most cases the only things you have to input are your language,
>>> your keyboard, and your
>>> time zone. And whether you will use the system time. (Thunderbird
>>> requires a few inputs, but
>>> they're the same in Windows.) That doesn't seem very complicated to
>>> me.
>>> . . .
>> Well, no, it isn't.
>> But we are talking about Debian.
>> Specifically partitioning/file system decision making during install.
>> Regards,
>>
>> Weaver.
> Assuming you want to keep Windows, the install disk ought to let you
> fix the partitioning--make half the disk for Windows, and the other half
> for
> Linux. You'll want a /root and a /home partition, using ext4, and a swap
> partition.
> Make /home about 10G, make swap about 4G, and make the remainder /home.
> (Swap is its own file system, you don't have to select that.)
>
> STill pretty simple.

Not to a Newbie, it isn't, unless somebody explains what a partition
actually is and what the function of a file system is.
Regards,

Weaver
--
"The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al
Qaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a
propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an
identified entity representing
the 'devil' only in order to drive the TV watcher to accept a unified
international leadership for a war against terrorism.
The country behind this propaganda is the US . . ."
-- Former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook


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Old 09-09-2012, 10:14 PM
"Weaver"
 
Default Installation

On Sun, September 9, 2012 8:23 am, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> Am Sonntag, 9. September 2012 schrieb Camaleón:
>> > I quite much agree to the installation stuff.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I put Linux on the laptop I bought with my father for my father. He
>> > used Firefox and Thunderbird and some crappy photo management
>> > software.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I put KDE on it plus Iceweasel, Icedove and Digikam as applications.
>> > And each a button for internet on and off (this Debian Lenny
>> > installation is using HFC USB based ISDN adapter for accessing the
>> > net, thats why I am reluctant to upgrade to Squeeze or Wheezy, cause
>> > I have the gut feeling that ISDN on Squeeze or Wheezy is quite some
>> > fiddling again.)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Well that just works.
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> And you know why that works? Because "you" wanted it worked, not your
>> father. Now imagine your father has to do all the job by his own, do
>> you still think he is going to maintain his current setup? I really
>> doubt it.
>>
>> Now imagine a different scenario. Your father buys a computer with a
>> Linux distribution on it which is already preconfigured. At a first
>> glance it seems to be a good idea: the computer is cheaper because
>> there's no OS licence that needs to be tributed and the guy of the
>> shop instructs your father about the advandatges of the Linux systems
>> -less viruses and malwares, rock-solid...).
>
> Well may father came with an outdated Ubuntu box he bought in some
> discounter and asked me to install it .
>
> So it wasn´t exactly my wish to have this working. But then maybe my
> statement that I won´t fix any Windows if it gets broke may have
> contributed to his decision. But I think he wanted to have a glimpse at
> what his son is working with all the time and thats this has been more of
> a reason for his decision.
>
>> Back to home, your uncle sends a "beautiful" PowerPoint file by e-mail
>> to your father and despite LibreOffice can open the file with no
>> problem your father ears no sound. And here is where the real linux
>> hist[eo]ry starts... at this point, unless your father either a) shows
>> a real interest in solving the problem by himself or b) you or someone
>> else is near to solve the problem, 99% of the time your fictional
>> father will simply jump to Windows.
>
> So ignorance of real open standards, well standards that mean to be
> interoperable from the beginning, harms the adoption of Linux? Ignorance
> of a standard that has been formalized way before Microsoft paid their
> standard through the comitee members. Ignorance of a standard thats way
> easier to grasp cause its documentation is to the point…
>
> What a pity.
>
> But then I - as a corner case or not - don´t give much about being able to
> view a power point presentation.
>
> If I cared about being a corner case I wouldn´t be where I am now.
>
> If 99% of all people decide to give up their freedom when using their
> computers I do not need to follow. Just as if 99% of all people decide to
> jump through a window and get themselves hurt I do not have to follow.
>
> But unless you plan to have world domination of Debian on all desktops I
> see no point in going on with this discussion…
>
> Actually everyone is free to use the operating of their choice or non-
> choice so either people advertise Linux to other people by showing it off
> and probably helping installing it to change the situation or not.
>
> I do think that having Windows is often the result of a non-choice of the
> operating system. Just like having Android on a smartphone btw.
>
> If you learnt Linux in the school and get bought a Linux machine by your
> parents and enough others have a similar socialisation how do you care
> about any Powerpoint file at all?
>
> Frankly, I do not care anymore. I say openly how I see Linux. I show it
> off
> to interested people. And if someone is not interested, I let them have
> their way.
>
> But if someone needs help and has Windows I am quite reluctant about it
> meanwhile. Cause I have better things to do with my life than wasting
> countless hours on fixing Windows systems. Been there, done that and found
> other stuff to be more joy for me.
>
> If people insist of running around an advertising pillar with an
> advertisement of how good Windows is without looking in another direction
> than where the pillar is that is perfectly their choice.
>
> And I do not get what their choice has to do with Debian. Frankly, is non-
> adoption of Debian by any amount of those users something that makes your
> life more miserable?
>
> If not, why do you care?
>
> When I learnt something from life it is that I can ever only change
> myself. I cannot change anyone else. So why even bother trying to do this?
>
> If you feel your mission is to raise adoption of Linux on the desktop,
> then by all means follow all ways that you see fit that invite people to
> try it out. Sell pre-installed computers, give computer courses, whatever.
>
> If not, then just be happy with what you have.
>
> Its a lot with Debian GNU/BSD/Linux in my eyes. Really a lot.
>
> My life is not more miserable due to having just a user base of 1,5% with
> Linux on desktops. Well maybe sometimes I wish some more good games. But
> when I look at the PC game market I am quite sure I´d ditch 99% of those
> games for unnecessary violence that just ends in it self and is displayed
> in a unnecessarily explicit way. I want story, I want characters that
> evolve, I want colors, I want a beautiful world. So I am not interested in
> all that end-of-the-time, pessimistic and violent ego shooter shit that
> people tend to call games.
>
> Even if 99% of all gamers want to play these? Why do I have to follow
> their way if it is not mine?
>
> I do think open source application put a lot effort in making Linux and
> applications running on it more accessible to the casual user. I am
> grateful for that. Quite some applications got better this way. Not all of
> them, but quite some. Apart from that… if someone wants to try it out,
> fine. If not, why bother except for the cases where I receive concrete and
> constructive feedback on how to improve the situation and I want to put
> myself in a position to do something about it?

My problem has been, for quite some number of years now, of not just
considering my own requirements.
I tend to think a little more (w)holistically, because if the context
isn't advanced, any appearance of personal advancement is no more than
illusion.
Regards,

Weaver.
--
"The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al
Qaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a
propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an
identified entity representing
the 'devil' only in order to drive the TV watcher to accept a unified
international leadership for a war against terrorism.
The country behind this propaganda is the US . . ."
-- Former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook


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Old 09-10-2012, 08:26 AM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Installation

On Sun, 2012-09-09 at 13:55 +0000, Camaleón wrote:
[snip]
> Back to home, your uncle sends a "beautiful" PowerPoint file by e-mail to
> your father and despite LibreOffice can open the file with no problem
> your father ears no sound. And here is where the real linux hist[eo]ry
> starts... at this point, unless your father either a) shows a real
> interest in solving the problem by himself or b) you or someone else is
> near to solve the problem, 99% of the time your fictional father will
> simply jump to Windows.

+1

The less expensive computer isn't a computer with Linux installed
instead of Windows, but a computer we mount ourself, after buying the
individual parts. Unfortunately not everybody has got the ability or
time to do it. For software it's similar, especially for Linux a newbie
already could choose the wrong distro regarding to the needs. The
imaginary father could run into serious issues, if he buys a printer and
scanner .

Regards,
Ralf




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Old 09-10-2012, 08:35 AM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Installation

On Sun, 2012-09-09 at 14:43 +0000, Camaleón wrote:
> > From memory, it ran itself.
>
> I really doubt it.

There are cracked Windows versions that auto-install a "repaired"
Windows, users only need knowledge about setting up the Internet
connection. Weaver didn't say what version was bought. Some people
perhaps sell cracked versions.


Ralf


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Old 09-10-2012, 08:42 AM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Installation

On Sun, 2012-09-09 at 19:13 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Du, 09 sep 12, 15:05:44, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> >
> > From what I read you can even install Debian to a fresh box by just
> > hitting enter all the time. I never tried this, but you have even guided
> > partitioning in the installer. So what?
>
> No you can't, the "Do you want to format these partions?" question
> defaults to "No"
>
> (probably to avoid someone hitting Enter before having a good look)


Passwords. You even can't type any password you like to use and
simply hit enter.


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Old 09-10-2012, 11:20 AM
lee
 
Default Installation

Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sun, 09 Sep 2012 18:04:00 +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
>
>> Linux on desktop has gone a long way. And I think it is still on a
>> journey.
>
> (...)
>
> This is usually a delusion: is not that windows or linux is more or less
> easy (now or then) but how many people in your circle can solve/cope a
> problem with your system.

Nobody --- and that probably isn't going to change.

> Just run a simple experiment: knock at your neighbors' door and tell them
> you have a problem with your Internet Explorer; there's a high chance
> that someone can help.

There's no chance they could help. Neither any useful documentation, nor
the source code are available, so if it doesn't work, reboot, and if it
still doesn't work, re-install. That's all the options you have.

> Now do the same but tell them you have a problem with Konqueror. They
> will close the door in our nose and say something like "The guy on third
> floor is saying foolishness" :-)

They would ask what konqueror is and tell you to reboot or to
re-install. That's not a significant difference.


--
Debian testing amd64


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Old 09-10-2012, 11:33 AM
lee
 
Default Installation

"Weaver" <weaver@riseup.net> writes:

> My problem has been, for quite some number of years now, of not just
> considering my own requirements.
> I tend to think a little more (w)holistically, because if the context
> isn't advanced, any appearance of personal advancement is no more than
> illusion.

So if you learn or invent something not a lot of other people care or
think about, that isn't an advancement but only on illusion? I guess
humans would be extinct since long if they were all thinking like that.


--
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:05 PM
"Morel Bérenger"
 
Default Installation

Le Lun 10 septembre 2012 10:42, Ralf Mardorf a écrit :
> On Sun, 2012-09-09 at 19:13 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>
>> On Du, 09 sep 12, 15:05:44, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> From what I read you can even install Debian to a fresh box by just
>>> hitting enter all the time. I never tried this, but you have even
>>> guided partitioning in the installer. So what?
>>
>> No you can't, the "Do you want to format these partions?" question
>> defaults to "No"
>>
>> (probably to avoid someone hitting Enter before having a good look)
>>
>
>
> Passwords. You even can't type any password you like to use and
> simply hit enter.
>
>
> --
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> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact
> listmaster@lists.debian.org Archive:
> http://lists.debian.org/1347266554.11998.70.camel@precise
>
>
>

The only way to address such an issue would be to add some text explaining
what a password could be. At least, it does not seem hard to do?

I also agree that the partitioning step can not be understandable to a
newbie.

About language, I wonder if it would be possible to auto-detect from the
the Internet: many websites are able to guess more or less precisely. I do
not know how they do that (maybe by knowing on which proxy the connection
go?), but maybe it could also be used by an installer when it have network
access.
The problem is that there is in that case a need to have loaded network
modules and to effectively have a connection.
Do not misunderstand me, I do not want to say that it is hard for me to
choose my language, just that if what you want is to reduce the number of
question to have an install process which can do everything automated,
such trick could help.

PS: 1 have read the whole discussion, but I see no interest in guessing
why linux is not as used by users as windows... Or, to me more honest, I
only play with that kind of troll topic on a forum I am used to, hidden
behind a pseudo.


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Old 09-10-2012, 12:10 PM
lee
 
Default Installation

"Weaver" <weaver@riseup.net> writes:

> On Sun, September 9, 2012 5:18 am, lee wrote:
>> "Weaver" <weaver@riseup.net> writes:
>>
>>> But we are talking about Debian.
>>> Specifically partitioning/file system decision making during install.
>>
>> When else would you make such a decision if not before starting the
>> installation? You can't install software without a place to put it.
>
> You are quoting out of context.

No, I'm not, you didn't get my point.

> What I am saying there needs advisory material placed into the
> installation process so that newbies can make INFORMED decisions and

People aren't going to spend the time it would take them to learn
everything they need to make informed decisions about the options the
installer gives them, no matter how much documentation you put into it.

For more than a decade now you need a working computer to install an
operating system on another one so that you can acquire information and
additional software as needed. Why isn't that included in the installer?
Just boot from the installation media and be presented with a working
system and an installer, allowing you to switch between them.

For those who don't want to or are unable to learn, have a button they
can press to perform the installation, no matter what and no questions
asked. However, those are the kind of people who better stay away from
computers, which makes it doubtful how useful such a thing would be.


--
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