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Old 09-09-2012, 03:23 PM
Martin Steigerwald
 
Default Installation

Am Sonntag, 9. September 2012 schrieb Camaleón:
> > I quite much agree to the installation stuff.
> >
> >
> >
> > I put Linux on the laptop I bought with my father for my father. He
> > used Firefox and Thunderbird and some crappy photo management
> > software.
> >
> >
> >
> > I put KDE on it plus Iceweasel, Icedove and Digikam as applications.
> > And each a button for internet on and off (this Debian Lenny
> > installation is using HFC USB based ISDN adapter for accessing the
> > net, thats why I am reluctant to upgrade to Squeeze or Wheezy, cause
> > I have the gut feeling that ISDN on Squeeze or Wheezy is quite some
> > fiddling again.)
> >
> >
> >
> > Well that just works.
>
> (...)
>
> And you know why that works? Because "you" wanted it worked, not your
> father. Now imagine your father has to do all the job by his own, do
> you still think he is going to maintain his current setup? I really
> doubt it.
>
> Now imagine a different scenario. Your father buys a computer with a
> Linux distribution on it which is already preconfigured. At a first
> glance it seems to be a good idea: the computer is cheaper because
> there's no OS licence that needs to be tributed and the guy of the
> shop instructs your father about the advandatges of the Linux systems
> -less viruses and malwares, rock-solid...).

Well may father came with an outdated Ubuntu box he bought in some
discounter and asked me to install it .

So it wasn´t exactly my wish to have this working. But then maybe my
statement that I won´t fix any Windows if it gets broke may have
contributed to his decision. But I think he wanted to have a glimpse at
what his son is working with all the time and thats this has been more of
a reason for his decision.

> Back to home, your uncle sends a "beautiful" PowerPoint file by e-mail
> to your father and despite LibreOffice can open the file with no
> problem your father ears no sound. And here is where the real linux
> hist[eo]ry starts... at this point, unless your father either a) shows
> a real interest in solving the problem by himself or b) you or someone
> else is near to solve the problem, 99% of the time your fictional
> father will simply jump to Windows.

So ignorance of real open standards, well standards that mean to be
interoperable from the beginning, harms the adoption of Linux? Ignorance
of a standard that has been formalized way before Microsoft paid their
standard through the comitee members. Ignorance of a standard thats way
easier to grasp cause its documentation is to the point…

What a pity.

But then I - as a corner case or not - don´t give much about being able to
view a power point presentation.

If I cared about being a corner case I wouldn´t be where I am now.

If 99% of all people decide to give up their freedom when using their
computers I do not need to follow. Just as if 99% of all people decide to
jump through a window and get themselves hurt I do not have to follow.

But unless you plan to have world domination of Debian on all desktops I
see no point in going on with this discussion…

Actually everyone is free to use the operating of their choice or non-
choice so either people advertise Linux to other people by showing it off
and probably helping installing it to change the situation or not.

I do think that having Windows is often the result of a non-choice of the
operating system. Just like having Android on a smartphone btw.

If you learnt Linux in the school and get bought a Linux machine by your
parents and enough others have a similar socialisation how do you care
about any Powerpoint file at all?

Frankly, I do not care anymore. I say openly how I see Linux. I show it off
to interested people. And if someone is not interested, I let them have
their way.

But if someone needs help and has Windows I am quite reluctant about it
meanwhile. Cause I have better things to do with my life than wasting
countless hours on fixing Windows systems. Been there, done that and found
other stuff to be more joy for me.

If people insist of running around an advertising pillar with an
advertisement of how good Windows is without looking in another direction
than where the pillar is that is perfectly their choice.

And I do not get what their choice has to do with Debian. Frankly, is non-
adoption of Debian by any amount of those users something that makes your
life more miserable?

If not, why do you care?

When I learnt something from life it is that I can ever only change
myself. I cannot change anyone else. So why even bother trying to do this?

If you feel your mission is to raise adoption of Linux on the desktop,
then by all means follow all ways that you see fit that invite people to
try it out. Sell pre-installed computers, give computer courses, whatever.

If not, then just be happy with what you have.

Its a lot with Debian GNU/BSD/Linux in my eyes. Really a lot.

My life is not more miserable due to having just a user base of 1,5% with
Linux on desktops. Well maybe sometimes I wish some more good games. But
when I look at the PC game market I am quite sure I´d ditch 99% of those
games for unnecessary violence that just ends in it self and is displayed
in a unnecessarily explicit way. I want story, I want characters that
evolve, I want colors, I want a beautiful world. So I am not interested in
all that end-of-the-time, pessimistic and violent ego shooter shit that
people tend to call games.

Even if 99% of all gamers want to play these? Why do I have to follow
their way if it is not mine?

I do think open source application put a lot effort in making Linux and
applications running on it more accessible to the casual user. I am
grateful for that. Quite some applications got better this way. Not all of
them, but quite some. Apart from that… if someone wants to try it out,
fine. If not, why bother except for the cases where I receive concrete and
constructive feedback on how to improve the situation and I want to put
myself in a position to do something about it?

--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7


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Old 09-09-2012, 03:46 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Installation

On Sun, 09 Sep 2012 17:23:52 +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:

> Am Sonntag, 9. September 2012 schrieb Camaleón:

(...)

>> > Well that just works.
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> And you know why that works? Because "you" wanted it worked, not your
>> father. Now imagine your father has to do all the job by his own, do
>> you still think he is going to maintain his current setup? I really
>> doubt it.

(...)

> Well may father came with an outdated Ubuntu box he bought in some
> discounter and asked me to install it .

Now ask yourself what would had happened in the event "you" were not a
variable to consider :-)

> So it wasn´t exactly my wish to have this working.

(...)

What I wanted to say is that maybe your father would have considered
another option should "you" were not available to do the job of
installing linux on his behalf.

>> Back to home, your uncle sends a "beautiful" PowerPoint file by e-mail
>> to your father and despite LibreOffice can open the file with no
>> problem your father ears no sound. And here is where the real linux
>> hist[eo]ry starts... at this point, unless your father either a) shows
>> a real interest in solving the problem by himself or b) you or someone
>> else is near to solve the problem, 99% of the time your fictional
>> father will simply jump to Windows.
>
> So ignorance of real open standards, well standards that mean to be
> interoperable from the beginning, harms the adoption of Linux? Ignorance
> of a standard that has been formalized way before Microsoft paid their
> standard through the comitee members. Ignorance of a standard thats way
> easier to grasp cause its documentation is to the point…
>
> What a pity.

(...)

Ignorance is a pity by its own definition, but regarding the Linux
adoption, I think it's not the one to blame.

Today there's Internet and users are (or "can be") informed by many
different means. The problem with Linux adoption is that users do not
want to be informed, they only want their computers work with the less
headaches and this is not possible with Linux, which on the other hand,
is where it relies its beauty: Linux forces you to think and to choose.

So in brief, if you ask me if Linux is ready for the desktop I'd say that
yes; it's people who is not ready for Linux.

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 09-09-2012, 03:58 PM
Lisi
 
Default Installation

On Sunday 09 September 2012 16:23:52 Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> Am Sonntag, 9. September 2012 schrieb Camaleón:
> > > I quite much agree to the installation stuff.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I put Linux on the laptop I bought with my father for my father. He
> > > used Firefox and Thunderbird and some crappy photo management
> > > software.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I put KDE on it plus Iceweasel, Icedove and Digikam as applications.
> > > And each a button for internet on and off (this Debian Lenny
> > > installation is using HFC USB based ISDN adapter for accessing the
> > > net, thats why I am reluctant to upgrade to Squeeze or Wheezy, cause
> > > I have the gut feeling that ISDN on Squeeze or Wheezy is quite some
> > > fiddling again.)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Well that just works.
> >
> > (...)
> >
> > And you know why that works? Because "you" wanted it worked, not your
> > father. Now imagine your father has to do all the job by his own, do
> > you still think he is going to maintain his current setup? I really
> > doubt it.
> >
> > Now imagine a different scenario. Your father buys a computer with a
> > Linux distribution on it which is already preconfigured. At a first
> > glance it seems to be a good idea: the computer is cheaper because
> > there's no OS licence that needs to be tributed and the guy of the
> > shop instructs your father about the advandatges of the Linux systems
> > -less viruses and malwares, rock-solid...).
>
> Well may father came with an outdated Ubuntu box he bought in some
> discounter and asked me to install it .
>
> So it wasn´t exactly my wish to have this working. But then maybe my
> statement that I won´t fix any Windows if it gets broke may have
> contributed to his decision. But I think he wanted to have a glimpse at
> what his son is working with all the time and thats this has been more of
> a reason for his decision.
>
> > Back to home, your uncle sends a "beautiful" PowerPoint file by e-mail
> > to your father and despite LibreOffice can open the file with no
> > problem your father ears no sound. And here is where the real linux
> > hist[eo]ry starts... at this point, unless your father either a) shows
> > a real interest in solving the problem by himself or b) you or someone
> > else is near to solve the problem, 99% of the time your fictional
> > father will simply jump to Windows.
>
> So ignorance of real open standards, well standards that mean to be
> interoperable from the beginning, harms the adoption of Linux? Ignorance
> of a standard that has been formalized way before Microsoft paid their
> standard through the comitee members. Ignorance of a standard thats way
> easier to grasp cause its documentation is to the point…
>
> What a pity.
>
> But then I - as a corner case or not - don´t give much about being able to
> view a power point presentation.
>
> If I cared about being a corner case I wouldn´t be where I am now.
>
> If 99% of all people decide to give up their freedom when using their
> computers I do not need to follow. Just as if 99% of all people decide to
> jump through a window and get themselves hurt I do not have to follow.
>
> But unless you plan to have world domination of Debian on all desktops I
> see no point in going on with this discussion…
>
> Actually everyone is free to use the operating of their choice or non-
> choice so either people advertise Linux to other people by showing it off
> and probably helping installing it to change the situation or not.
>
> I do think that having Windows is often the result of a non-choice of the
> operating system. Just like having Android on a smartphone btw.
>
> If you learnt Linux in the school and get bought a Linux machine by your
> parents and enough others have a similar socialisation how do you care
> about any Powerpoint file at all?
>
> Frankly, I do not care anymore. I say openly how I see Linux. I show it off
> to interested people. And if someone is not interested, I let them have
> their way.
>
> But if someone needs help and has Windows I am quite reluctant about it
> meanwhile. Cause I have better things to do with my life than wasting
> countless hours on fixing Windows systems. Been there, done that and found
> other stuff to be more joy for me.
>
> If people insist of running around an advertising pillar with an
> advertisement of how good Windows is without looking in another direction
> than where the pillar is that is perfectly their choice.
>
> And I do not get what their choice has to do with Debian. Frankly, is non-
> adoption of Debian by any amount of those users something that makes your
> life more miserable?
>
> If not, why do you care?
>
> When I learnt something from life it is that I can ever only change
> myself. I cannot change anyone else. So why even bother trying to do this?
>
> If you feel your mission is to raise adoption of Linux on the desktop,
> then by all means follow all ways that you see fit that invite people to
> try it out. Sell pre-installed computers, give computer courses, whatever.
>
> If not, then just be happy with what you have.
>
> Its a lot with Debian GNU/BSD/Linux in my eyes. Really a lot.
>
> My life is not more miserable due to having just a user base of 1,5% with
> Linux on desktops. Well maybe sometimes I wish some more good games. But
> when I look at the PC game market I am quite sure I´d ditch 99% of those
> games for unnecessary violence that just ends in it self and is displayed
> in a unnecessarily explicit way. I want story, I want characters that
> evolve, I want colors, I want a beautiful world. So I am not interested in
> all that end-of-the-time, pessimistic and violent ego shooter shit that
> people tend to call games.
>
> Even if 99% of all gamers want to play these? Why do I have to follow
> their way if it is not mine?
>
> I do think open source application put a lot effort in making Linux and
> applications running on it more accessible to the casual user. I am
> grateful for that. Quite some applications got better this way. Not all of
> them, but quite some. Apart from that… if someone wants to try it out,
> fine. If not, why bother except for the cases where I receive concrete and
> constructive feedback on how to improve the situation and I want to put
> myself in a position to do something about it?

+1 :-) (Except that the fewer games the better as far as I am concerned!)

Lisi


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Old 09-09-2012, 04:04 PM
Martin Steigerwald
 
Default Installation

Am Sonntag, 9. September 2012 schrieb Camaleón:
> On Sun, 09 Sep 2012 17:23:52 +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> > Am Sonntag, 9. September 2012 schrieb Camaleón:
> (...)
>
> >> > Well that just works.
> >>
> >> (...)
> >>
> >> And you know why that works? Because "you" wanted it worked, not
> >> your father. Now imagine your father has to do all the job by his
> >> own, do you still think he is going to maintain his current setup?
> >> I really doubt it.
>
> (...)
>
> > Well may father came with an outdated Ubuntu box he bought in some
> > discounter and asked me to install it .
>
> Now ask yourself what would had happened in the event "you" were not a
> variable to consider :-)
>
> > So it wasn´t exactly my wish to have this working.
>
> (...)
>
> What I wanted to say is that maybe your father would have considered
> another option should "you" were not available to do the job of
> installing linux on his behalf.
>
> >> Back to home, your uncle sends a "beautiful" PowerPoint file by
> >> e-mail to your father and despite LibreOffice can open the file
> >> with no problem your father ears no sound. And here is where the
> >> real linux hist[eo]ry starts... at this point, unless your father
> >> either a) shows a real interest in solving the problem by himself
> >> or b) you or someone else is near to solve the problem, 99% of the
> >> time your fictional father will simply jump to Windows.
> >
> > So ignorance of real open standards, well standards that mean to be
> > interoperable from the beginning, harms the adoption of Linux?
> > Ignorance of a standard that has been formalized way before
> > Microsoft paid their standard through the comitee members. Ignorance
> > of a standard thats way easier to grasp cause its documentation is
> > to the point…
> >
> > What a pity.
>
> (...)
>
> Ignorance is a pity by its own definition, but regarding the Linux
> adoption, I think it's not the one to blame.
>
> Today there's Internet and users are (or "can be") informed by many
> different means. The problem with Linux adoption is that users do not
> want to be informed, they only want their computers work with the less
> headaches and this is not possible with Linux, which on the other hand,
> is where it relies its beauty: Linux forces you to think and to choose.
>
> So in brief, if you ask me if Linux is ready for the desktop I'd say
> that yes; it's people who is not ready for Linux.

I am not even sure about this.

There is quite some things where I now shake my head and think "this is so
easy with Linux now" compared with how it was say 5 or 10 years ago. I
plug in a second screen or beamer on the laptop and get a dialog and it
just works or I drag something into K3b and it just burns or I open some
file even from Windows in LibreOffice and it just displays and and and… heck,
even Nepomuk desktop search is working quite nicely these days. Only
KDEPIM 2 still seems to be a work in progress, but it seems to come along
nicely from what I read.

Linux on desktop has gone a long way. And I think it is still on a
journey.

I think its important to think on Windows, too. Do you know the video or
was it a series of images where someone starts up Internet Explorer goes
to some webpages and clicks yes everytime he is asked whether to install a
toolbar and such. Up to the extent of not being able to view a webpage in
it cause the space in the browser window has become to small?

--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7


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Old 09-09-2012, 04:13 PM
Andrei POPESCU
 
Default Installation

On Du, 09 sep 12, 15:05:44, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
>
> From what I read you can even install Debian to a fresh box by just
> hitting enter all the time. I never tried this, but you have even guided
> partitioning in the installer. So what?

No you can't, the "Do you want to format these partions?" question
defaults to "No"

(probably to avoid someone hitting Enter before having a good look)

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Old 09-09-2012, 04:41 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Installation

On Sun, 09 Sep 2012 18:04:00 +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:

> Am Sonntag, 9. September 2012 schrieb Camaleón:

(...)

>> So in brief, if you ask me if Linux is ready for the desktop I'd say
>> that yes; it's people who is not ready for Linux.
>
> I am not even sure about this.
>
> There is quite some things where I now shake my head and think "this is
> so easy with Linux now" compared with how it was say 5 or 10 years ago.
> I plug in a second screen or beamer on the laptop and get a dialog and
> it just works or I drag something into K3b and it just burns or I open
> some file even from Windows in LibreOffice and it just displays and and
> and… heck, even Nepomuk desktop search is working quite nicely these
> days. Only KDEPIM 2 still seems to be a work in progress, but it seems
> to come along nicely from what I read.
>
> Linux on desktop has gone a long way. And I think it is still on a
> journey.

(...)

This is usually a delusion: is not that windows or linux is more or less
easy (now or then) but how many people in your circle can solve/cope a
problem with your system.

Just run a simple experiment: knock at your neighbors' door and tell them
you have a problem with your Internet Explorer; there's a high chance
that someone can help.

Now do the same but tell them you have a problem with Konqueror. They
will close the door in our nose and say something like "The guy on third
floor is saying foolishness" :-)

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 09-09-2012, 08:47 PM
Doug
 
Default Installation

On 09/09/2012 03:04 AM, Weaver wrote:

On Sat, September 8, 2012 6:33 pm, Doug wrote:

On 09/08/2012 09:03 PM, Weaver wrote:

On Sat, September 8, 2012 8:51 am, Camalen wrote:

On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 13:37:55 -0700, Weaver wrote:


I know how hard it can be to see the forest when you are too close to
the trees, so I thought I would re-post something I put up in another
forum where Miguel de Icaza's recent communication was being discussed
and in answer to Vaughan-Nicholl's recent article of semi-acceptance.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The most 'untechie' person on the planet can use any Linux
distribution
once it is installed.

(...)


The reason they don't is the install procedure.

(...)

I think it's not that easy.

First, because "untechie" users neither have to install Windows nor
MacOS
as both usually come along with the computer in a pre-installed form
thus
they only have to provide some basic data.

Yes, a couple have made this point, but from my own personal experience,
it's not the case.

I am not what you could call 'financially endowed' and always obtained
older and, in many cases, in complete boxes.
I couldn't afford the brand new OEM boxes, so always had to install
Windows, when I used it, myself.
I had to buy that.

>From memory, it ran itself.
There were perhaps a couple of questions that didn't require reference
to
Einstein, but that was all.

Nothing anywhere near as complex as an expert Debian install, which is
what I prefer now.
Not to the point of being one of the 'High-Riders', but I'm getting
there.
Regards,

Weaver.


Don't know about Debian, it's been a while since I installed that, but I
*have* installed a few others,
and in most cases the only things you have to input are your language,
your keyboard, and your
time zone. And whether you will use the system time. (Thunderbird
requires a few inputs, but
they're the same in Windows.) That doesn't seem very complicated to me.
. . .

Well, no, it isn't.
But we are talking about Debian.
Specifically partitioning/file system decision making during install.
Regards,

Weaver.

Assuming you want to keep Windows, the install disk ought to let you
fix the partitioning--make half the disk for Windows, and the other half
for
Linux. You'll want a /root and a /home partition, using ext4, and a swap
partition.

Make /home about 10G, make swap about 4G, and make the remainder /home.
(Swap is its own file system, you don't have to select that.)

STill pretty simple. Good luck.

--doug

-- Blessed are the peacekeepers...for they shall be shot at from both
sides. --A.M. Greeley



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Old 09-09-2012, 09:11 PM
"Weaver"
 
Default Installation

On Sun, September 9, 2012 5:18 am, lee wrote:
> "Weaver" <weaver@riseup.net> writes:
>
>> But we are talking about Debian.
>> Specifically partitioning/file system decision making during install.
>
> When else would you make such a decision if not before starting the
> installation? You can't install software without a place to put it.

You are quoting out of context.
The post I was replying to was talking about other operating systems.
He didn't specify which ones, but it was obvious that they weren't Debian,
when it is the Debian install process which is under discussion.

I am not saying that these decisions shouldn't be made, either.
What I am saying there needs advisory material placed into the
installation process so that newbies can make INFORMED decisions and
remove the disorientation factor that brings about rejection.
Regards,

Weaver.
--
"The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al
Qaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a
propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an
identified entity representing
the 'devil' only in order to drive the TV watcher to accept a unified
international leadership for a war against terrorism.
The country behind this propaganda is the US . . ."
-- Former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook


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Old 09-09-2012, 09:23 PM
"Weaver"
 
Default Installation

On Sun, September 9, 2012 6:05 am, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> Am Sonntag, 9. September 2012 schrieb Weaver:
>> Nothing anywhere near as complex as an expert Debian install, which is
>> what I prefer now.
>
> You compare an *expert* Debian install with a regular Windows install?

No, I am saying that the expert install is what 'I' use now.
Even the fully 'automatic' install is more complex than a Windows install.

But this, again, is not what is being advocated.
I see nothing wrong with a small educational process being incorporated
into the install procedure.
>
> Not a fair comparison it seems to me.

That's because it wasn't the comparison being made.
>
> From what I read you can even install Debian to a fresh box by just
> hitting enter all the time. I never tried this, but you have even guided
> partitioning in the installer. So what?

Guided what?
First it is necessary to know what partitioning IS.
>
> I dont think the Debian installer is that difficult. You do not have to
> use
> expert mode and I think beginners may be better off using the simple mode
> that asks less questions.

I am not advocating anything else.

>
> That said installers from SUSE, Fedora and Ubuntu might be more polished.
> But then the Ubuntu live cd installer - not the Debian installer from the
> alternative CD - couldnt even speak LVM for quite a while and it can
> still not speak SoftRAID AFAIK and there are plans to drop the alternate
> installer nonetheless. I wouldnt like to have that flexibility removed
> from the Debian installer. I think the SUSE installer can do both LVM and
> SoftRAID. I am sure about LVM. But not completely sure about SoftRAID. I
> think it can do it.

LVM is not involved.
The average end/home user would, in all likelihood, not even be interested
in LVM initially and for, probably, some considerable time after that.

As far as raid goes, in their mass-produced, single drive box, they are
not concerned with that either.
>
> Anyway, if you have concrete suggestions on how to improve the Debian
> installer why dont you just file enhancement requests or make your
> suggestions / concerns to the Debian installer team?

Because I think that active discussions on these matters should be
conducted to eradicate as much error as possible before bothering
developers with what may well be an inane or unnecessary suggestion.

This is what lists are for.
Regards,

Weaver

--
"The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al
Qaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a
propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an
identified entity representing
the 'devil' only in order to drive the TV watcher to accept a unified
international leadership for a war against terrorism.
The country behind this propaganda is the US . . ."
-- Former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook


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Old 09-09-2012, 09:32 PM
"Weaver"
 
Default Installation

On Sun, September 9, 2012 6:10 am, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> Am Sonntag, 9. September 2012 schrieb Weaver:
>> > Don't know about Debian, it's been a while since I installed that,
>> > but I have installed a few others,
>> > and in most cases the only things you have to input are your
>> > language, your keyboard, and your
>> > time zone. And whether you will use the system time. (Thunderbird
>> > requires a few inputs, but
>> > they're the same in Windows.) That doesn't seem very complicated to
>> > me. . . .
>>
>> Well, no, it isn't.
>> But we are talking about Debian.
>> Specifically partitioning/file system decision making during install.
>> Regards,
>
> So you tried expert mode and also selected manual partitioning. Then the
> installer offers you to do just that.

I'm afraid you are introducing unnecessary confusion into the situation.
What I employ has bot nothing to do with the subject.
>
> This seems like deciding to eat an apple and then complaining that it
> tastes like… an apple.

I fail to see where I am making a complaint.
I do see where I have forwarded a subject to the list for discussion.

If you choose manual partitioning you get to do
> just that. And I love that I can do it. The last time I tried a Windows
> installer partitioning choices were so limited that I wished I had a
> Debian installer to install Windows. Also the partitioning tool within the
> Windows installer has been very cumbersome. This has been quite some time
> and they may have improved this, but still…

The Windows installer is not under discussion either.
Their is a reduced level of personal involvement in that scenario, but
there are decided reasons for that also, as previously stated.

What I am advocating is introducing some small element of information into
the installer, in order to increase the level of successful installations
in the case of newbie installs, in order to effect a greater level of
Debian market-share.

>
> Use guided partitioning and be done with it in case you do not know much
> about partitions. The Debian installer has guided partitioning with and
> without LVM since quite some time.

What is partitioning?
>
> I just don´t get what you are complaining about.

Once again, there is no complaint.
>
> Do you have any *factual* and *concrete* issues with the Debian installer?
> Anything that you could put a finger at and show it to us? Then even
> better
> show it to the Debian installer team. I think they´d like constructive,
> concrete and helpful feedback.
>
> If you just like to complain, then better do not even bother to contact
> the Debian installer team.
>
> Thats at least my advice.

....and I'm afraid it is not very helpful advice because it doesn't deal
with the subject matter in an accurate manner.
Regards,

Weaver
--
"The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al
Qaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a
propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an
identified entity representing
the 'devil' only in order to drive the TV watcher to accept a unified
international leadership for a war against terrorism.
The country behind this propaganda is the US . . ."
-- Former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook


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