lee wrote:
>
> Besides that, it appears to me that people for reasons that escape me
> are willing to put up with whatever crap and problems their windoze
> throws at them while they *never* would put up with them if Linux threw
> them at them. They even pay a lot of money for it! Any idea why that
> is so?

Twofold, I think:

1) Everybody knows a 'computer guy' who can fix their Windows problems
(repeatedly if necessary).

2) Windows' reputation is for being prone to failure and viruses and
suchlike. Linux is frequently pushed by its proselytes as some perfect
blend of absolute reliability and utopian ease-of-use, which it
obviously falls short of.


> Is it just the effect of marketing that tells everyone they could
> intuitively use their computer and of course it will always work
> perfectly fine and people believing it despite they can see every time
> they use their windoze or macos that what they are being told isn't
> true? Or maybe they can't see it because they don't know any better?

I think so, yes. But I don't believe it is limited to Windows or OSX.

> (Is it really $250 for a windoze license? I have one I couldn't avoid
> getting; maybe I should sell it. If you want to make an offer, please
> send it directly to me and not to the list.)

Windows 7 cost £80 GBP when I bought it a couple of weeks ago.

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On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 10:18:36 +0200, Helmut Wollmersdorfer wrote:

> Am 20.09.2012 um 16:31 schrieb Camaleón:
>
>> For the lazy users who are not interested in what their systems are or
>> run, a big _sure_. If there were nobody solving their issues (and I'm
>> quite confident that Windows users have *a lot of* problems) they will
>> look for another solution that "breaks" less... it can be Apple (but
>
> I *must* use Apple here in the company. Maybe Apple breaks less than
> Win$. But if it breaks, it's more boring than Win$. Mac OSX is sometimes
> the hell for a software developer or a server- admin.
>
> But for a simple user a tablet is maybe the best choice.

Exactly.

Although I never would recommend an Apple product to anyone (I found it
even more evil than Microsoft), I recognize that Apple is your brand
should you don't want to care what a computer or a phone or a tablet is.

But prepare your budget to accomodate the needs of $700-share company ;-)

>> their products are not affordable) or it can be -oh, what was the
>> name...-, ah, yes, Linux.
>
> Linux is a good (the best?) choice, if you want stability, good
> diagnosis, special configurations.

Sure, I find it's the perfect choice for home users.

> And the installer of Debian did a great step forward since ~2003 --
> especially in simplicitity and flexibilty.

I also think so, although I haven't tested the "normal" (default)
installer, I always choose the expert mode and I would also recommend
another users to use it. It can be intimidating at a first glance but
with the docs at your hands, you realize it follows a logical routine
(step 1 → step 2 → step 3 → step 4 → ... → main menu → step 4 → step
5...) and quite understandable.

People is intimidated not because of the lack of GUIs but when they don't
understand the inners of a process, that's why documentation is so
important in the first steps.

Greetings,

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Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> writes:

> On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 23:25:34 +0200, lee wrote:
>>
>> Following your argumentation, which OS someone uses is only a matter of
>> which OS other people someone chooses to surround themselves with are
>> using when they do not want to learn or to solve problems.
>
> (...)
>
> For the lazy users who are not interested in what their systems are or
> run, a big _sure_. If there were nobody solving their issues (and I'm
> quite confident that Windows users have *a lot of* problems) they will
> look for another solution that "breaks" less... it can be Apple (but
> their products are not affordable) or it can be -oh, what was the
> name...-, ah, yes, Linux.

They don't think like that.

>> (Is it really $250 for a windoze license? I have one I couldn't avoid
>> getting; maybe I should sell it. If you want to make an offer, please
>> send it directly to me and not to the list.)
>
> Last time I checked (at the time Windows 7 was out) that was the price
> for the stand-alone (non-upgrade) retailer box you can find at any shop
> but now, with the new upcoming "product" (Windows 8) this could have
> changed, of course.

That's crazy.


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Avi Greenbury <lists@avi.co> writes:

> lee wrote:
>>
>> Besides that, it appears to me that people for reasons that escape me
>> are willing to put up with whatever crap and problems their windoze
>> throws at them while they *never* would put up with them if Linux threw
>> them at them. They even pay a lot of money for it! Any idea why that
>> is so?
>
> Twofold, I think:
>
> 1) Everybody knows a 'computer guy' who can fix their Windows problems
> (repeatedly if necessary).

I don't know anyone who could. It seems more likely that they don't
think that they have a choice.

> 2) Windows' reputation is for being prone to failure and viruses and
> suchlike. Linux is frequently pushed by its proselytes as some perfect
> blend of absolute reliability and utopian ease-of-use, which it
> obviously falls short of.

The latter is what the marketing tells them about windoze. People seem
to believe it.

>> Is it just the effect of marketing that tells everyone they could
>> intuitively use their computer and of course it will always work
>> perfectly fine and people believing it despite they can see every time
>> they use their windoze or macos that what they are being told isn't
>> true? Or maybe they can't see it because they don't know any better?
>
> I think so, yes. But I don't believe it is limited to Windows or OSX.

The theory is that the demand decides what is available on the market.
In practise, the manufacturers decide what the demand should be.

>> (Is it really $250 for a windoze license? I have one I couldn't avoid
>> getting; maybe I should sell it. If you want to make an offer, please
>> send it directly to me and not to the list.)
>
> Windows 7 cost £80 GBP when I bought it a couple of weeks ago.

That's crazy.


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Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> writes:

> On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 06:41:04 +0200
> lee <lee@yun.yagibdah.de> wrote:
>
>> Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> > On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 02:29:18 +0200
>> > lee <lee@yun.yagibdah.de> wrote:
>> >
>> > Not familiar with gimp or x3; sorry.
>>
>> You never used gimp? X3 is a game --- could be really awesome if it
>> wasn't so buggy.
>
> Gimp: I think I fired it up once or twice, but I've never really used it
> to any extent. I don't do photo editing, and for the very basic stuff
> I've needed to do (cropping, etc.), I've used imagemagick. I certainly
> know what it is, but I don't know enough about it to discuss its memory
> usage.

Crop a picture with imagemagic? I just found out you can actually do
that, and it starts a lot faster than gimp. I sometimes use it to
display an image or for converting images and taking screenshots. It's
one of these things you never pay attention to unless you don't have it
and then find it's essential.

Gimp can use lots of memory --- not an issue with reasonably sized
images, though. There's probably no way around that for what it does.

> X3 is this?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X3:_Reunion

Yep --- in many ways an awesome game, in some ways not. When I finished
the post, I went to shoot some enemies and it crashed yet again. They
refuse to fix it. I got it for $15 when they had a big sale --- if I
had payed the regular price, I'd have returned it because it's too buggy
and the patches they have don't fix it. X2 was much better in that.


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On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 11:57:35 +0300
Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jo, 20 sep 12, 06:31:52, lee wrote:
> > Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> > > If you have an OEM license, it can't be transferred to a different PC:
> > >
> > > http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/licensing/sblicensing/pages/licensing_for_hobbyists.aspx
> >
> > Why not? I haven't signed any agreement with them.
>
> You agreed to the EULA on install or first boot, same thing.

Additionally, IIUC, Microsoft retains copyright, and only grants the
OEM and you various rights to use and distribute the software. You, the
end user, are granted by the OEM (in accordance with a right Microsoft
has granted *it*) the right to use the software, but not to resell it
(except as part of the sale of the entire computer). You therefore
simply have no right to resell it, and any customer of yours has
acquires no right to use it.

> Kind regards,
> Andrei

Celejar


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On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 17:53:38 +0200, lee wrote:

> Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 23:25:34 +0200, lee wrote:
>>>
>>> Following your argumentation, which OS someone uses is only a matter
>>> of which OS other people someone chooses to surround themselves with
>>> are using when they do not want to learn or to solve problems.
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> For the lazy users who are not interested in what their systems are or
>> run, a big _sure_. If there were nobody solving their issues (and I'm
>> quite confident that Windows users have *a lot of* problems) they will
>> look for another solution that "breaks" less... it can be Apple (but
>> their products are not affordable) or it can be -oh, what was the
>> name...-, ah, yes, Linux.
>
> They don't think like that.

Sure they do. Money is a very powerful and convincing argument.

>>> (Is it really $250 for a windoze license? I have one I couldn't avoid
>>> getting; maybe I should sell it. If you want to make an offer, please
>>> send it directly to me and not to the list.)
>>
>> Last time I checked (at the time Windows 7 was out) that was the price
>> for the stand-alone (non-upgrade) retailer box you can find at any shop
>> but now, with the new upcoming "product" (Windows 8) this could have
>> changed, of course.
>
> That's crazy.

What exactly?

Greetings,

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On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 16:41:46 +0200, lee wrote:

> Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> writes:

>>> Why would it have to be taken over by a company? That wouldn't remove
>>> the need for learning.
>>
>> Because companies have the necessary resources to provide the kind of
>> support a newbie requires (e.g., IBM, HP, RedHat, Canonical or SUSE are
>> good examples for this). No user-driven mailing list can help these
>> kind of newbies in the same way that a company does, if someone told
>> you so it wasn't being sincere.
>
> The only way in which Suse has been helping me is by including
> documentation in form of a book with their distributions --- which after
> not very long didn't answer the questions I had anymore.

(...)

> Companies may have resources they could use to provide support. Simply
> having them doesn't mean that they do.

They do provide support as long as you pay for it, of course. Laziness
has a price.

>>>> Because Windows OEM installations are always -regardless the version-
>>>> quick and take little time but we are not talking here about this,
>>>> you know...
>>>
>>> No, they aren't.
>>
>> By your replies I can deduce that either:
>>
>> a) You have never installed a OEMized version of Windows or, b) You are
>> not very skilled user because these versions provide a wizard that only
>> asks you no more than 5 basic questions, or c) You're simply joking...
>
> None of your deductions is correct

(...)

Then kindly tell me why you seem to ignore a fact that everybody is aware
of.

Greetings,

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On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 20:18:56 +0200
Erwan David <erwan@rail.eu.org> wrote:

> On 23/09/12 18:42, Celejar wrote:
> > On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 11:57:35 +0300
> > Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Jo, 20 sep 12, 06:31:52, lee wrote:
> >>> Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>
> >>>> If you have an OEM license, it can't be transferred to a different PC:
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/licensing/sblicensing/pages/licensing_for_hobbyists.aspx
> >>> Why not? I haven't signed any agreement with them.
> >> You agreed to the EULA on install or first boot, same thing.
> > Additionally, IIUC, Microsoft retains copyright, and only grants the
> > OEM and you various rights to use and distribute the software. You, the
> > end user, are granted by the OEM (in accordance with a right Microsoft
> > has granted *it*) the right to use the software, but not to resell it
> > (except as part of the sale of the entire computer). You therefore
> > simply have no right to resell it, and any customer of yours has
> > acquires no right to use it.
> >
>
> This point is now false in the european union, the UE court of justice
> ruled that a license may always be reselled.

Good to know, thanks; I was speaking of the US. Do you have a source / link for that?

Celejar


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Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> writes:

> Additionally, IIUC, Microsoft retains copyright, and only grants the
> OEM and you various rights to use and distribute the software. You, the
> end user, are granted by the OEM (in accordance with a right Microsoft
> has granted *it*) the right to use the software, but not to resell it
> (except as part of the sale of the entire computer). You therefore
> simply have no right to resell it, and any customer of yours has
> acquires no right to use it.

[shrugs] I don't know about that and I don't care. If someone would
buy it, it's not up to me what they do with it.


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