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Old 09-09-2012, 01:03 AM
"Weaver"
 
Default Installation

On Sat, September 8, 2012 8:51 am, Camaleón wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 13:37:55 -0700, Weaver wrote:
>
>> I know how hard it can be to see the forest when you are too close to
>> the trees, so I thought I would re-post something I put up in another
>> forum where Miguel de Icaza's recent communication was being discussed
>> and in answer to Vaughan-Nicholl's recent article of semi-acceptance.
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> The most 'untechie' person on the planet can use any Linux distribution
>> once it is installed.
>
> (...)
>
>> The reason they don't is the install procedure.
>
> (...)
>
> I think it's not that easy.
>
> First, because "untechie" users neither have to install Windows nor MacOS
> as both usually come along with the computer in a pre-installed form thus
> they only have to provide some basic data.

Yes, a couple have made this point, but from my own personal experience,
it's not the case.

I am not what you could call 'financially endowed' and always obtained
older and, in many cases, in complete boxes.
I couldn't afford the brand new OEM boxes, so always had to install
Windows, when I used it, myself.
I had to buy that.

>From memory, it ran itself.
There were perhaps a couple of questions that didn't require reference to
Einstein, but that was all.

Nothing anywhere near as complex as an expert Debian install, which is
what I prefer now.
Not to the point of being one of the 'High-Riders', but I'm getting there.
Regards,

Weaver.

--
"The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al
Qaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a
propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an
identified entity representing
the 'devil' only in order to drive the TV watcher to accept a unified
international leadership for a war against terrorism.
The country behind this propaganda is the US . . ."
-- Former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook


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Old 09-09-2012, 01:20 AM
"Weaver"
 
Default Installation

On Sat, September 8, 2012 10:07 am, Worrier Poet wrote:
> On 09/08/2012 11:51 AM, Camaleón wrote:
>> On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 13:37:55 -0700, Weaver wrote:
>>
>>> I know how hard it can be to see the forest when you are too close to
>>> the trees, so I thought I would re-post something I put up in another
>>> forum where Miguel de Icaza's recent communication was being discussed
>>> and in answer to Vaughan-Nicholl's recent article of semi-acceptance.
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> The most 'untechie' person on the planet can use any Linux distribution
>>> once it is installed.
>>
>> (...)
>>
>>> The reason they don't is the install procedure.
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> I think it's not that easy.
<snip>

> To add to Camaleón's points I'd also observe that -- even when users do
> install Windows, they usually do so from an installer (possibly a
> really, really bad one customized by the computer manufacturer)

No, this is an unnecessary complication.
I'm talking about installing from Windows discs.


that
> doesn't ask (m)any questions about what's already on the system. Windows
> installers don't give a rap about whether or not you'll be able to boot
> the OS that was previously on the system before Windows was installed.

This is beside the point and no comparison as the Debian installer allows
for this.
I am not condemning the Debian installer.
I'm suggesting a couple of small modifications in regard to explanation at
the partitioning/filesystem selection stage.

> There's a kind of hubris to that that we (the FOSS community) wouldn't
> be thrilled to see coming from our own distributions, I think.
>
> But making those assumptions makes it pretty easy for Microsoft and its
> business partners to make an installer that's easy to use. All it has to
> do is re-pave the highway.

Which is what they do.
It's not hard to understand that this is just another monopoly protection
strategy, but again, not the point under discussion.
I am not recommending that we copy the Windows installer.

>
> GNU/Linux/HURD/BSD users have a lot of freedom to configure things just
> the way they want them. That requires them to do anywhere from a little
> to a lot of learning. The people who are turned off by the effort of
> finding out how to choose a partition scheme (pretty darned easy by
> default in Debian, for instance) or a file system (also not hard by
> default in the d-i) are probably not going to enjoy the party once
> they're here.

I wouldn't classify either of those activities as 'easy' from the Newbie
perspective.
This is the perception that we have to deal with in order to assume more
market share.

>
> The people who do take interest in such things -- like I did back when I
> used DOS and Windows -- probably aren't going to balk at all at what
> they find in the d-i expert install. I didn't. I went straight from all
> Windows to all GNU/Linux without bothering with virtual machines or dual
> booting or any of that stuff. Just saved my data to a safe place, took
> all the machines to Debian testing, and stuck our data back on the "new"
> systems.

Neither am I suggesting that the average newbie leap straight into the
'expert' installation option.
This is something that I would include in the new user (or automated)
category.
When you take somebody on a journey do you allow them to get a glimpse of
the map from time to time, or do you maintain it as a secret in order to
elevate your supposed level of existence?
>
> Actually, the hardest part of the switch was finding a way to convert
> some of the data from proprietary formats to open formats.

These are things that come afterward and dealt efficiently in the
file-saving process of libreOffice, for example.

We are discussing the installation procedure.
As I said previously, the majority of the market are interested in an
email programme, a browser and an office suite.
If they want to branch out from there later, they can with the help of
documentation, Google searches and with enquiry on lists as the rest of us
do.
And they'll probably, after tasting a little success, journey on from
there, as the rest of us have.
>
> Good fortune to you!

And you.
And try not to worry too much.
Regards,

Weaver
--
"The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al
Qaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a
propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an
identified entity representing
the 'devil' only in order to drive the TV watcher to accept a unified
international leadership for a war against terrorism.
The country behind this propaganda is the US . . ."
-- Former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook


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Old 09-09-2012, 01:27 AM
"Weaver"
 
Default Installation

On Sat, September 8, 2012 10:59 am, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> Am Samstag, 8. September 2012 schrieb Camaleón:
>> On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 13:37:55 -0700, Weaver wrote:
>> > I know how hard it can be to see the forest when you are too close to
>> > the trees, so I thought I would re-post something I put up in another
>> > forum where Miguel de Icaza's recent communication was being
>> > discussed and in answer to Vaughan-Nicholl's recent article of
>> > semi-acceptance. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> > The most 'untechie' person on the planet can use any Linux
>> > distribution once it is installed.
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> > The reason they don't is the install procedure.
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> I think it's not that easy.

<snip>
>
> Well I do see more and more that there are really cool applications for
> Linux.
>
> But sure, someone who doesn´t want to try anything with a different name
> and GUI than the stuff he is used too, but not be easy to convince.
>
> Just as I don´t give a sh* about Adobe software except for flash where its
> still needed to play web videos.
>
> I quite much agree to the installation stuff.
>
> I put Linux on the laptop I bought with my father for my father. He used
> Firefox and Thunderbird and some crappy photo management software.
>
> I put KDE on it plus Iceweasel, Icedove and Digikam as applications. And
> each a button for internet on and off (this Debian Lenny installation is
> using HFC USB based ISDN adapter for accessing the net, thats why I am
> reluctant to upgrade to Squeeze or Wheezy, cause I have the gut feeling
> that ISDN on Squeeze or Wheezy is quite some fiddling again.)
>
> Well that just works.
>
> So I also agree that it somewhat depends on the applications, on games for
> some as well as on the willingness to try a different application for the
> same tasks.
>
> As for Adobe Photoshop GIMP and possibly even more so Krita are very
> interesting alternatives IMHO. But then what do I know about Photoshop…

That's right.
People choose their apps to fit requirement and they get that post
install, which is not the aspect under discussion.

Anybody who requires a Photoshop equivalent is going to have to devote the
same amount of time and effort to become familiar with GIMP, gimp-gap,
ufraw, etc., that they would need to in order to develop familiarity with
Photoshop.
Regards,

Weaver
--
"The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al
Qaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a
propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an
identified entity representing
the 'devil' only in order to drive the TV watcher to accept a unified
international leadership for a war against terrorism.
The country behind this propaganda is the US . . ."
-- Former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook


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Old 09-09-2012, 01:33 AM
Doug
 
Default Installation

On 09/08/2012 09:03 PM, Weaver wrote:

On Sat, September 8, 2012 8:51 am, Camaleón wrote:

On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 13:37:55 -0700, Weaver wrote:


I know how hard it can be to see the forest when you are too close to
the trees, so I thought I would re-post something I put up in another
forum where Miguel de Icaza's recent communication was being discussed
and in answer to Vaughan-Nicholl's recent article of semi-acceptance.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The most 'untechie' person on the planet can use any Linux distribution
once it is installed.

(...)


The reason they don't is the install procedure.

(...)

I think it's not that easy.

First, because "untechie" users neither have to install Windows nor MacOS
as both usually come along with the computer in a pre-installed form thus
they only have to provide some basic data.

Yes, a couple have made this point, but from my own personal experience,
it's not the case.

I am not what you could call 'financially endowed' and always obtained
older and, in many cases, in complete boxes.
I couldn't afford the brand new OEM boxes, so always had to install
Windows, when I used it, myself.
I had to buy that.

>From memory, it ran itself.
There were perhaps a couple of questions that didn't require reference to
Einstein, but that was all.

Nothing anywhere near as complex as an expert Debian install, which is
what I prefer now.
Not to the point of being one of the 'High-Riders', but I'm getting there.
Regards,

Weaver.

Don't know about Debian, it's been a while since I installed that, but I
*have* installed a few others,
and in most cases the only things you have to input are your language,
your keyboard, and your
time zone. And whether you will use the system time. (Thunderbird
requires a few inputs, but
they're the same in Windows.) That doesn't seem very complicated to me.
. . .


--doug

--
Blessed are the peacekeepers...for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A.M. Greeley


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Old 09-09-2012, 07:04 AM
"Weaver"
 
Default Installation

On Sat, September 8, 2012 6:33 pm, Doug wrote:
> On 09/08/2012 09:03 PM, Weaver wrote:
>> On Sat, September 8, 2012 8:51 am, Camaleón wrote:
>>> On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 13:37:55 -0700, Weaver wrote:
>>>
>>>> I know how hard it can be to see the forest when you are too close to
>>>> the trees, so I thought I would re-post something I put up in another
>>>> forum where Miguel de Icaza's recent communication was being discussed
>>>> and in answer to Vaughan-Nicholl's recent article of semi-acceptance.
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> The most 'untechie' person on the planet can use any Linux
>>>> distribution
>>>> once it is installed.
>>> (...)
>>>
>>>> The reason they don't is the install procedure.
>>> (...)
>>>
>>> I think it's not that easy.
>>>
>>> First, because "untechie" users neither have to install Windows nor
>>> MacOS
>>> as both usually come along with the computer in a pre-installed form
>>> thus
>>> they only have to provide some basic data.
>> Yes, a couple have made this point, but from my own personal experience,
>> it's not the case.
>>
>> I am not what you could call 'financially endowed' and always obtained
>> older and, in many cases, in complete boxes.
>> I couldn't afford the brand new OEM boxes, so always had to install
>> Windows, when I used it, myself.
>> I had to buy that.
>>
>> >From memory, it ran itself.
>> There were perhaps a couple of questions that didn't require reference
>> to
>> Einstein, but that was all.
>>
>> Nothing anywhere near as complex as an expert Debian install, which is
>> what I prefer now.
>> Not to the point of being one of the 'High-Riders', but I'm getting
>> there.
>> Regards,
>>
>> Weaver.
>>
> Don't know about Debian, it's been a while since I installed that, but I
> *have* installed a few others,
> and in most cases the only things you have to input are your language,
> your keyboard, and your
> time zone. And whether you will use the system time. (Thunderbird
> requires a few inputs, but
> they're the same in Windows.) That doesn't seem very complicated to me.
> . . .

Well, no, it isn't.
But we are talking about Debian.
Specifically partitioning/file system decision making during install.
Regards,

Weaver.
--
"The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al
Qaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a
propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an
identified entity representing
the 'devil' only in order to drive the TV watcher to accept a unified
international leadership for a war against terrorism.
The country behind this propaganda is the US . . ."
-- Former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook


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Old 09-09-2012, 12:18 PM
lee
 
Default Installation

"Weaver" <weaver@riseup.net> writes:

> But we are talking about Debian.
> Specifically partitioning/file system decision making during install.

When else would you make such a decision if not before starting the
installation? You can't install software without a place to put it.


--
Debian testing amd64


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Old 09-09-2012, 01:05 PM
Martin Steigerwald
 
Default Installation

Am Sonntag, 9. September 2012 schrieb Weaver:
> Nothing anywhere near as complex as an expert Debian install, which is
> what I prefer now.

You compare an *expert* Debian install with a regular Windows install?

Not a fair comparison it seems to me.

From what I read you can even install Debian to a fresh box by just
hitting enter all the time. I never tried this, but you have even guided
partitioning in the installer. So what?

I don´t think the Debian installer is that difficult. You do not have to use
expert mode and I think beginners may be better off using the simple mode
that asks less questions.

That said installers from SUSE, Fedora and Ubuntu might be more polished.
But then the Ubuntu live cd installer - not the Debian installer from the
alternative CD - couldn´t even speak LVM for quite a while and it can
still not speak SoftRAID AFAIK and there are plans to drop the alternate
installer nonetheless. I wouldn´t like to have that flexibility removed
from the Debian installer. I think the SUSE installer can do both LVM and
SoftRAID. I am sure about LVM. But not completely sure about SoftRAID. I
think it can do it.

Anyway, if you have concrete suggestions on how to improve the Debian
installer why don´t you just file enhancement requests or make your
suggestions / concerns to the Debian installer team?

Thanks,
--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7


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Old 09-09-2012, 01:10 PM
Martin Steigerwald
 
Default Installation

Am Sonntag, 9. September 2012 schrieb Weaver:
> > Don't know about Debian, it's been a while since I installed that,
> > but I have installed a few others,
> > and in most cases the only things you have to input are your
> > language, your keyboard, and your
> > time zone. And whether you will use the system time. (Thunderbird
> > requires a few inputs, but
> > they're the same in Windows.) That doesn't seem very complicated to
> > me. . . .
>
> Well, no, it isn't.
> But we are talking about Debian.
> Specifically partitioning/file system decision making during install.
> Regards,

So you tried expert mode and also selected manual partitioning. Then the
installer offers you to do just that.

This seems like deciding to eat an apple and then complaining that it
tastes like… an apple. If you choose manual partitioning you get to do
just that. And I love that I can do it. The last time I tried a Windows
installer partitioning choices were so limited that I wished I had a
Debian installer to install Windows. Also the partitioning tool within the
Windows installer has been very cumbersome. This has been quite some time
and they may have improved this, but still…

Use guided partitioning and be done with it in case you do not know much
about partitions. The Debian installer has guided partitioning with and
without LVM since quite some time.

I just don´t get what you are complaining about.

Do you have any *factual* and *concrete* issues with the Debian installer?
Anything that you could put a finger at and show it to us? Then even better
show it to the Debian installer team. I think they´d like constructive,
concrete and helpful feedback.

If you just like to complain, then better do not even bother to contact
the Debian installer team.

Thats at least my advice.

--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7


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Old 09-09-2012, 01:55 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Installation

On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 19:59:50 +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:

> Am Samstag, 8. September 2012 schrieb Camaleón:

(...)

>> Linux is more like an intense mental activity that requires from your
>> attention (and high doses of patience and interest) and not all the
>> people is ready/looking for that.
>
> Well I do see more and more that there are really cool applications for
> Linux.

I also do see them. But I'm afraid neither you nor me are the user
prototype we are pointing to in this thread.

> But sure, someone who doesn´t want to try anything with a different name
> and GUI than the stuff he is used too, but not be easy to convince.

Exactly, and that's the kind of person who is very difficult to bring
closer to linux.

> Just as I don´t give a sh* about Adobe software except for flash where
> its still needed to play web videos.

Then you're a corner case.

> I quite much agree to the installation stuff.
>
> I put Linux on the laptop I bought with my father for my father. He used
> Firefox and Thunderbird and some crappy photo management software.
>
> I put KDE on it plus Iceweasel, Icedove and Digikam as applications. And
> each a button for internet on and off (this Debian Lenny installation is
> using HFC USB based ISDN adapter for accessing the net, thats why I am
> reluctant to upgrade to Squeeze or Wheezy, cause I have the gut feeling
> that ISDN on Squeeze or Wheezy is quite some fiddling again.)
>
> Well that just works.

(...)

And you know why that works? Because "you" wanted it worked, not your
father. Now imagine your father has to do all the job by his own, do you
still think he is going to maintain his current setup? I really doubt it.

Now imagine a different scenario. Your father buys a computer with a
Linux distribution on it which is already preconfigured. At a first
glance it seems to be a good idea: the computer is cheaper because
there's no OS licence that needs to be tributed and the guy of the shop
instructs your father about the advandatges of the Linux systems -less
viruses and malwares, rock-solid...).

Back to home, your uncle sends a "beautiful" PowerPoint file by e-mail to
your father and despite LibreOffice can open the file with no problem
your father ears no sound. And here is where the real linux hist[eo]ry
starts... at this point, unless your father either a) shows a real
interest in solving the problem by himself or b) you or someone else is
near to solve the problem, 99% of the time your fictional father will
simply jump to Windows.

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 09-09-2012, 02:43 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Installation

On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 18:03:30 -0700, Weaver wrote:

> On Sat, September 8, 2012 8:51 am, Camaleón wrote:

(...)

>>> The reason they don't is the install procedure.
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> I think it's not that easy.
>>
>> First, because "untechie" users neither have to install Windows nor
>> MacOS as both usually come along with the computer in a pre-installed
>> form thus they only have to provide some basic data.
>
> Yes, a couple have made this point, but from my own personal experience,
> it's not the case.

You mean you got your linux preinstalled within you computer? That would
be nice but I'm afraid not the norm :-)

> I am not what you could call 'financially endowed' and always obtained
> older and, in many cases, in complete boxes. I couldn't afford the brand
> new OEM boxes, so always had to install Windows, when I used it, myself.
> I had to buy that.

That's a different user case. But then, Windows installation is not that
straight-forward because you may have to provide some basic drivers (for
the storage controller) and manually partition the hard disk, choose the
file system to use, etc.

> From memory, it ran itself.

I really doubt it.

> There were perhaps a couple of questions that didn't require reference
> to Einstein, but that was all.

Not the questions the "joe" user is able to provide without help.

> Nothing anywhere near as complex as an expert Debian install, which is
> what I prefer now.
> Not to the point of being one of the 'High-Riders', but I'm getting
> there. Regards,

Well, it would be more fair to compare the Windows installer with Debian
grahical installer that is the deafult. And of course, not with the
expert installer; as its name indicates, is not for beginners ;-)

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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