FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Ubuntu > Xubuntu User

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 09-18-2012, 09:21 AM
Andrei POPESCU
 
Default Installation

On Lu, 17 sep 12, 18:17:55, lee wrote:
>
> What you are saying is that I should get a working fridge first that
> delivers perfect ice cubes before getting a fridge that could deliver
> ice cubes because otherwise my chances of successfully getting the
> fridge to deliver perfect ice cubes optimally are greatly reduced ---
> because it's too difficult to figure out how to put the water into the
> fridge without a working fridge to learn from. And if my kitchen is too
> small for all the fridges, I have to move to another place first so that
> I have a larger kitchen.

No, but rather you should make sure *your* fridge has enough space in
your living place, an adequate power socket, and appropriate
ventilation.

All that information is included in the refrigerators documentation, but
how do you find out about these before buying and taking your fridge
home? You ask the dealer or ask them to let you read the manual *in
advance*

Kind regards,
Andrei
--
Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers:
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic
 
Old 09-18-2012, 01:58 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Installation

On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:17:55 +0200, lee wrote:

> Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> writes:

(...)

>>> 1.) I don't have a working computer to find and print manuals with.
>>> First I need to install Debian (or have that working system).
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> Then you better stop here and solve this step before going any further
>> or your chances for a complete failure will increase (in the event the
>> installer gives you any problem or you don't know how to proceed you
>> will have to either a) abort or b) blindly choose. None of the above
>> options will give you an optimal result.
>
> Well, if you give me the money to buy another computer that has an OS
> pre-installed first and a printer, then I can solve this problem by
> buying them --- if I have the room to set up all the hardware somewhere.
> There are even people who use laptops because they don't have the room
> for a computer.
>
> Do you expect me to move to a larger apartment so that I can install
> Debian with an optimal result?

(...)

Your arguments fit perfect as a demostration of my key point that an OS
installation is neither a money nor "I-want-a-bigger-room" related
problem but a user attitude.

I wonder what would you do should you have to live the 365 days of the
year with no Internet connection (like many newbie linux -Debian- users
in the world do) or simply with a dial-up line from where to send/receive
e-mails no larger that 3 MiB and no web browsing at all.

This people can tell you what are *real* limitations yet still they are
interested in having Debian systems installed, up and running. That's an
enviable attitude.

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/k39umh$thl$8@ger.gmane.org
 
Old 09-18-2012, 02:03 PM
The Wanderer
 
Default Installation

On 09/17/2012 12:01 PM, Camaleón wrote:


On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:21:06 -0400, The Wanderer wrote:


I'm probably going to regret this...


<sarcasm>

And I wonder why >:-)

</sarcasm>


Because I'm subject to fits of unreasoning paranoia about the possibility that I
might get a flame, however mild, in response - and I can spend hours or days in
a semi-depressive state, afraid to even open any responses I receive.

I wasn't always like that, I know roughly what changed it, and I don't like the
change - but I don't know how to change back.

Or in other words: because the people who respond may not be reasonable, and I'm
no longer as thick-skinned in an argument as I used to be.


On 09/17/2012 09:31 AM, Camaleón wrote:



Then you better stop here and solve this step before going any further


How?



If you can solve a simple problem like that I wonder what would you do when
your computer can't start at all...


For many people, the answer is "panic".

Does that mean they shouldn't get to have one in the first place?


But my point is that you shouldn't *have* to solve that problem as a
prerequisite for performing an initial install. If you know what you're doing,
you already don't have to, more or less; the argument I think I see being made
is that if you don't yet know what you're doing, you still shouldn't have to.


Consider the case of someone who used to run Windows, whose install got trashed
by malware, and who decided to throw it all over and install this Linux thing
he'd already burned an install disc for. Should they have to buy a new computer
(with an OS already installed) in order to be able to install Debian on their
existing hardware?

Or consider the somewhat extreme case of someone whose existing
already-installed systems all fried in a lightning strike, or were destroyed in
a fire, et cetera. Should they have to buy an already-installed system before
they try to install a new OS on their spare hardware?

Or consider the case of someone who literally has no Internet connection, and
who got the (non-netinst) install CD by mail order. Even if they already have an
existing, installed, working computer, it won't do them any good for finding
help. Should they be able to install?

There are more-extreme possible scenarios, but they get increasingly less likely.

--
The Wanderer

Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.

Every time you let somebody set a limit they start moving it.
- LiveJournal user antonia_tiger


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

Archive: 50587F21.3060506@fastmail.fm">http://lists.debian.org/50587F21.3060506@fastmail.fm
 
Old 09-18-2012, 02:03 PM
The Wanderer
 
Default Installation

On 09/17/2012 12:05 PM, Christofer C. Bell wrote:


On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 10:21 AM, The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> wrote:


I'm probably going to regret this...

On 09/17/2012 09:31 AM, Camaleón wrote:



Then you better stop here and solve this step before going any further


How?

In order to go from "no working computer" to "a working computer", at the
very least, someone has to install an operating system. If you're the only

one available, and the OS whose install media is available is Debian, then
the only way you're going to get a working computer is for you to install
Debian.


The installation media you are using was created on a working computer. Use
that one to read documentation or print manuals. If you got the disc from a
magazine, then read the article in the magazine the CD came with. If it was
handed to you by a friend, then that friend is your resource. If you found
the disc in the trash and have absolutely *no idea* what you're doing, then I
guess installing an operating system isn't for you. The "bare metal computer
on a desert island with nothing but a CD" situation you're imagining simply
doesn't happen. Camaleón is exactly right.


While that exact scenario probably doesn't happen, no, that doesn't mean the
underlying concept is entirely invalid.

One example: what if you burned the install CD from your only computer (possibly
a long time ago), and then something trashed the OS install on that computer, so
it won't boot anymore? Suddenly you have no working computer, but you do have
the install CD, and functional hardware to install it on.


At its root, my objection in this subthread isn't necessarily to the information
and functionality available in the current installer, but to the implied

statement that "you shouldn't install if you don't have a second,
already-working computer" - or at least that, if you try to install without
having one, you're doing it wrong.

I'm not saying that it's remotely common for people to want to install when they
don't have access to another, already-working computer. I'm saying that "having
access to another, already-working computer" is, or should be, a false
prerequisite; there should be no reason why that should be necessary, and
insofar as practical, we should try to keep it from being necessary.

It may be that we already do everything practical towards this end, and any
further efforts would go beyond the bounds of practicality. But stating the need
for an already-working alternate computer as a hard requirement just rings
completely false to me.

--
The Wanderer

Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.

Every time you let somebody set a limit they start moving it.
- LiveJournal user antonia_tiger


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

Archive: 50587F2B.9040707@fastmail.fm">http://lists.debian.org/50587F2B.9040707@fastmail.fm
 
Old 09-18-2012, 02:03 PM
The Wanderer
 
Default Installation

On 09/17/2012 06:08 PM, Christofer C. Bell wrote:

There is, in every endeavor, what we can call an "acceptable level of
ignorance" before getting started. There are things it's okay to not know or

not understand before undertaking the task.


Just for the record: I would agree with this. The question is where that bar
should be set, and I think the answer to that question should depend on how
difficult and/or impractical it would be to set it any lower.

--
The Wanderer

Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.

Every time you let somebody set a limit they start moving it.
- LiveJournal user antonia_tiger


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

Archive: 50587F3A.1040606@fastmail.fm">http://lists.debian.org/50587F3A.1040606@fastmail.fm
 
Old 09-18-2012, 02:13 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Installation

On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:46:03 +0200, lee wrote:

> Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 16 Sep 2012 22:55:50 +0200, lee wrote:
>>
>>> Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> (...)
>>
>>>>> This discussion was about users trying to use the D/i to install
>>>>> Debian.
>>>>
>>>> Nope. The core discusion was around "untechie" users and "Linux" in
>>>> general.
>>>
>>> see Message-ID:
>>> <928c0bda5efc0f17394b8f5f1d606ad3.squirrel@fruitea ter.riseup.net>
>>
>> Exactly.
>>
>> It starts with "(...) The most 'untechie' person on the planet can use
>> any Linux distribution once it is installed..."
>
> Which is a very vague statement: What characterises "the most untechie
> person on the planet"? For all I know, that could be someone who hasn't
> even been born yet.

(...)

Dude, I think you're failing to understand this is a simply "feedback"
thread focused in two main characters: "newbies" and "linux" installation
process. It's about nothing specific and nothing concrete. and we all
have an opinion for this.

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/k39vi2$thl$9@ger.gmane.org
 
Old 09-18-2012, 02:58 PM
lee
 
Default Installation

"Christofer C. Bell" <christofer.c.bell@gmail.com> writes:

> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 8:55 PM, lee <lee@yun.yagibdah.de> wrote:
>> "Christofer C. Bell" <christofer.c.bell@gmail.com> writes:

>>> The desert island situation is not only *not* the most likely one to
>>> have *it simply doesn't happen*.
>>
>> It's the most likely one you will have.
>
> You're flat wrong, as has been pointed out by multiple people. That
> you assert otherwise, like a broken record, does not change how wrong
> you are.

That you or other people say that I'm wrong doesn't mean that I am. Can
you prove that everyone who might install an OS on a computer always has
another, working one at their disposal when they do that? It's an
unreasonable assumption that they do, and simply by not having that
myself, I've already proven you wrong. It also seems far more likely
that most of the people who do have a computer have only one and not
several. So how likely is it that they suddenly have several when
installing on OS? Computers don't just suddenly appear out of nothing
when someone installs an OS.

>> No, I merely gave some example questions a clueless users might ask
>> which could come up when they are reading the insufficient and confusing
>> text weaver suggested to put into the D/i. I didn't suggest anywhere to
>> answer them anywhere in the installer. If you read carefully, you may
>> find out that I assume that the D/i installer is not the right place to
>> be for people who need ask what a partition or what partitioning means
>> since my first comment in this thread.
>
> No, what you keep posting are walls of text to browbeat people into
> agreeing with you.

By all means, please ignore my posts when they appear as nothing but
walls of text to you.

> Your contention that you've *not* assumed that "D/i installer is not
> hte right place to be for people who need to ask what a partition or
> what partitioning means from since [your] first comment in this
> thread," is flat wrong.

Just read carefully and provide a quote where I proposed to use the
Debian installer to educate clueless users to make educated decisions
about partitioning.

> Your ideas have been heard, considered, disagreed with, and rejected.

It seems that what I've been suggesting already does exist. It probably
existed before this discussion started. How is that possible when my
ideas are so disagreeable and so rejected?


--
Debian testing amd64


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: 87392fv0mj.fsf@yun.yagibdah.de">http://lists.debian.org/87392fv0mj.fsf@yun.yagibdah.de
 
Old 09-18-2012, 03:31 PM
lee
 
Default Installation

Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> writes:

> All that information is included in the refrigerators documentation, but
> how do you find out about these before buying and taking your fridge
> home? You ask the dealer or ask them to let you read the manual *in
> advance*

That isn't really an option when you bought refrigerator parts and built
your refrigerator from them. You'd have to write the manual yourself,
but you can't do that before the fridge you're writing it for is
working.

Perhaps that's one of the reasons why car assembly kits have a rather
small market share: Too many people are stuck in their fridges, some
don't have a car to go to places that sell refrigerators in order to
read manuals; the rest isn't the kind of people who would read, with
their steering wheels remaining in default positions.

We must be really insane to be any different.


--
Debian testing amd64


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: 87wqzrtkiu.fsf@yun.yagibdah.de">http://lists.debian.org/87wqzrtkiu.fsf@yun.yagibdah.de
 
Old 09-18-2012, 03:41 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Installation

On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:03:13 -0400, The Wanderer wrote:

> On 09/17/2012 12:01 PM, Camaleón wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:21:06 -0400, The Wanderer wrote:
>>
>>> I'm probably going to regret this...
>>
>> <sarcasm>
>>
>> And I wonder why >:-)
>>
>> </sarcasm>

(...)

> Or in other words: because the people who respond may not be reasonable,
> and I'm no longer as thick-skinned in an argument as I used to be.

It was a rhetorical question expressed with a bit of <properly tagged>
sarcasm. I guess we all can imagine why you said so, no explanation
needed.

>>>> Then you better stop here and solve this step before going any
>>>> further
>>>
>>> How?
>
>> If you can solve a simple problem like that I wonder what would you do
>> when your computer can't start at all...
>
> For many people, the answer is "panic".

I can confirm the panic in that scenario, even for not so newbie users,
like me.

> Does that mean they shouldn't get to have one in the first place?

(...)

No, it means that panic can be treated with reading. Reading (and the
ensuing understanding on how this stuff works) is a "must" for every
computer user. There are no work-arounds, bypasses or magic hints to
avoid this step.

By telling the users that "installing an OS is easy and can be done in
few clicks" you're not only deliberately omiting the truth but also
giving them a poisoned present: the snake will bite you afterwards and
you don't have -and what is worst, you don't even know where/how to get-
the antidote because _you have been told_ that there were no snakes in
the box...

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/k3a4nu$thl$13@ger.gmane.org
 
Old 09-18-2012, 03:54 PM
The Wanderer
 
Default Installation

On 09/18/2012 11:41 AM, Camaleón wrote:


On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:03:13 -0400, The Wanderer wrote:


On 09/17/2012 12:01 PM, Camaleón wrote:


On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:21:06 -0400, The Wanderer wrote:


I'm probably going to regret this...


<sarcasm>

And I wonder why >:-)

</sarcasm>



Or in other words: because the people who respond may not be reasonable,
and I'm no longer as thick-skinned in an argument as I used to be.


It was a rhetorical question expressed with a bit of <properly tagged>
sarcasm. I guess we all can imagine why you said so, no explanation needed.


Yes, I understood that (though the exact direction of the sarcasm wasn't
entirely clear). I decided to answer it straightforwardly anyway, which in
hindsight may not have been as good a choice as I thought it was.


If you can solve a simple problem like that I wonder what would you do
when your computer can't start at all...


For many people, the answer is "panic".


I can confirm the panic in that scenario, even for not so newbie users, like
me.


Does that mean they shouldn't get to have one in the first place?



No, it means that panic can be treated with reading. Reading (and the ensuing
understanding on how this stuff works) is a "must" for every computer user.
There are no work-arounds, bypasses or magic hints to avoid this step.


True, although there *is* a potential limit on just how *much* "understanding on
how this stuff works" is, or should be, necessary.

To look at things from a possibly different perspective: what are the minimum
advance-reading and resulting-understanding requirements, for install and
(separately) for basic system usage, for e.g. Windows? Do we want to try to at
least meet that same minimum threshold, or is being harder-to-use than Windows
an acceptable thing?


By telling the users that "installing an OS is easy and can be done in few
clicks" you're not only deliberately omiting the truth but also giving them a
poisoned present: the snake will bite you afterwards and you don't have -and
what is worst, you don't even know where/how to get- the antidote because
_you have been told_ that there were no snakes in the box...


Fair enough. I'm not sure whether I would necessarily agree with further
conclusions from this point, but I believe I do agree with this point as stated.

--
The Wanderer

Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.

Every time you let somebody set a limit they start moving it.
- LiveJournal user antonia_tiger


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

Archive: 5058991F.509@fastmail.fm">http://lists.debian.org/5058991F.509@fastmail.fm
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 09:27 PM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright ©2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org