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Old 09-13-2012, 06:05 AM
"Weaver"
 
Default Installation

On Wed, September 12, 2012 7:57 pm, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Wed, 2012-09-12 at 19:30 -0700, Weaver wrote:
>> first I will have to find an old drive and do an install
>> to see exactly what is needed
>
> Or you use VirtualBox to see it.

No, I have to do an install for somebody anyway.
Regards,

Weaver
--
"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government."
-- Thomas Paine



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Old 09-13-2012, 07:29 AM
Andrei POPESCU
 
Default Installation

On Mi, 12 sep 12, 17:53:41, Weaver wrote:
>
> I would be an advocate of at least a separate /home partition in the
> 'Newbie Install'.

How big? IMVHO a separate /home partition[1] makes sense now[2] only if
one can make reasonable guesses about future use. I got it wrong several
times and so have many others.

If you think initial partitioning during the install is difficult just
think about how difficult it will be to repartition later. And no, LVM
doesn't really make things easier either for someone who has no idea
about partitions.

[1] actually a separate anything
[2] this might have been different in the early days of *nix, but those
days are gone.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Old 09-13-2012, 07:36 AM
Andrei POPESCU
 
Default Installation

On Mi, 12 sep 12, 17:12:12, Weaver wrote:
>
> On Tue, September 11, 2012 11:07 pm, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > On Ma, 11 sep 12, 12:29:42, Weaver wrote:
> >>
> >> I am advocating the elimination of that lack of knowledge.
> >
> > You are assuming the user is interested in learning. In my experience it
> > is rather the contrary.
>
> And I think choice is what Debian is about?

Sorry, I have no idea what you mean by that.

> It took me months to get on top of cfdisc with Libranet.
> I didn't know about mailing lists then.

This is not about you and me, or any debian-user subscriber AFAICT. It's
about the type of users that regard the computer as a tool and have no
desire to learn about its workings. After all, one can drive a car quite
well without knowing much about internal combustion engines.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:43 AM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Installation

On Thu, 2012-09-13 at 10:36 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> After all, one can drive a car quite well without knowing much about
> internal combustion engines.

I agree. OTOH in German driving school they teach it in the past,
perhaps they still do it today, but during the tests they didn't ask
about that knowledge. FWIW it's possible to touch a motor. Understanding
software requires more abstract thinking, because you can't touch it.

Most of "us" prefer to create our computer environments, most "averaged
users" want a tool, they won't create the tool, but they want to use the
tool, that fit best to their needs. Some people have never heard about
Linux, other people know it, but it's not their tool, because it doesn't
fit, to much work is needed to set it up.

Imagine this not as an analogy, but reality:
"We Linux people" want a raw knife and make it a steak knife or
a fish knife, "averaged people" simply want a steak knife and a
fish knife.
I assume that everybody on that list agrees that using a ready
build steak knife or fish knife indicates a lack of
self-responsibility.

I suspect nearly nobody of us in reality manufactures the needed knifes,
most of us are that non-self-reliant, that we got ready to use knifes.
So we can't expect that every Linux user should learn much about
computers.


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Old 09-13-2012, 10:52 AM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Installation

On Thu, 2012-09-13 at 10:29 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Mi, 12 sep 12, 17:53:41, Weaver wrote:
> >
> > I would be an advocate of at least a separate /home partition in the
> > 'Newbie Install'.
>
> How big? IMVHO a separate /home partition[1] makes sense now[2] only if
> one can make reasonable guesses about future use. I got it wrong several
> times and so have many others.

That's why I install everything to one partition and use external
partitions for high amounts of data.

> And no, LVM doesn't really make things easier either for someone who has no idea
> about partitions.

IMO LVM comes with absolutely no advantages, but many drawbacks. I'm
only using it with VBox for entertainment. Some people play computer
games for entertainment, I use LVM for entertainment, but don't play
computer games. IMO LVM isn't good for serious usage.

Regards,
Ralf


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Old 09-13-2012, 11:10 AM
"Weaver"
 
Default Installation

On Thu, September 13, 2012 12:29 am, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Mi, 12 sep 12, 17:53:41, Weaver wrote:
>>
>> I would be an advocate of at least a separate /home partition in the
>> 'Newbie Install'.
>
> How big? IMVHO a separate /home partition[1] makes sense now[2] only if
> one can make reasonable guesses about future use. I got it wrong several
> times and so have many others.

That depends on the size of the drive.

I make a / partition, a swap that is twice the size of RAM - on this box,
4 GB, and the rest is just assigned to home.

That way the drive size is the only limiting factor.

If you find, in time, that you are running out of drive space, instaal a
bigger drive, install the / and swap and again, allocate the rest as /home
and copy it over.

By that time, this would be a good project for the not-so-newbie.
Regards,

Weaver
--
"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government."
-- Thomas Paine



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Old 09-13-2012, 11:16 AM
"Weaver"
 
Default Installation

On Thu, September 13, 2012 12:36 am, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Mi, 12 sep 12, 17:12:12, Weaver wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, September 11, 2012 11:07 pm, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>> > On Ma, 11 sep 12, 12:29:42, Weaver wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I am advocating the elimination of that lack of knowledge.
>> >
>> > You are assuming the user is interested in learning. In my experience
>> it
>> > is rather the contrary.
>>
>> And I think choice is what Debian is about?
>
> Sorry, I have no idea what you mean by that.

I think that the new user should be able to be able to get past that point
of the install, in order to get a system up and going.
After that it is an individual choice as to what level they want to go in
the learning process or how much they choose to become involved in the
project.
>
>> It took me months to get on top of cfdisc with Libranet.
>> I didn't know about mailing lists then.
>
> This is not about you and me, or any debian-user subscriber AFAICT. It's
> about the type of users that regard the computer as a tool and have no
> desire to learn about its workings. After all, one can drive a car quite
> well without knowing much about internal combustion engines.

That's right.
Once they have ownership of the car - as a parallel to a successful install.
Hard to drive a car without one.
Regards,

Weaver
--
"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government."
-- Thomas Paine



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Old 09-13-2012, 11:20 AM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Installation

On Thu, 2012-09-13 at 04:10 -0700, Weaver wrote:
> If you find, in time, that you are running out of drive space, instaal
> a bigger drive, install the / and swap and again, allocate the rest
> as /home and copy it over.

How big should / become? Okay, modern drives have that much capacities
that for an empty drive or much unallocated space, simply fifty-fifty
should work. But what does argue against having root and home on the
same partition?


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Old 09-13-2012, 11:33 AM
Tony van der Hoff
 
Default Installation

On 13/09/12 12:20, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Thu, 2012-09-13 at 04:10 -0700, Weaver wrote:
>> If you find, in time, that you are running out of drive space, instaal
>> a bigger drive, install the / and swap and again, allocate the rest
>> as /home and copy it over.
>
> How big should / become? Okay, modern drives have that much capacities
> that for an empty drive or much unallocated space, simply fifty-fifty
> should work. But what does argue against having root and home on the
> same partition?
>
When you come to re-install the OS (and it is occasionally necessary),
it is vital to have at least /home and /usr/local on seperate partitions
from /, so that you can happily reformat / without worrying (too much)
about your data.
Also, you can fill up /home, and still run the system. I would also keep
/var on a seperate partition, to guard against some errant application
filling it up.


--
Tony van der Hoff | mailto:tony@vanderhoff.org
Buckinghamshire, England |


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Old 09-13-2012, 11:54 AM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Installation

On Thu, 2012-09-13 at 12:33 +0100, Tony van der Hoff wrote:
> When you come to re-install the OS (and it is occasionally necessary),
> it is vital to have at least /home and /usr/local on seperate partitions
> from /, so that you can happily reformat / without worrying (too much)
> about your data.

I also can restore root including /home and /usr/local from my backups.
If you keep /usr/local and you install Debian by the installer, not from
a backup, then the package management doesn't know about the packages
that installed files to /usr/local. "Make love, not make install" and
btw. the averaged user we are talking about, for sure has nothing
in /usr/local.

> Also, you can fill up /home, and still run the system. I would also keep
> /var on a seperate partition, to guard against some errant application
> filling it up.

If everything is in one partition, it's very unlikely that some location
gets filled up. It's more likely that this happens, if you use separated
partitions.

Regards,
Ralf


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