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Old 09-12-2012, 02:19 AM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Installation

On Tue, 2012-09-11 at 21:40 -0400, Celejar wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 22:51:39 +0200
> Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 2012-09-11 at 21:17 +0100, Lisi wrote:
> > > Since Squeeze I think that Debian has removed itself from this market. The
> > > main repository and kernel contain only FLOSS software. I.e. many drivers
> > > are missing and have to be separately installed. This is beyond a total
> > > newbie, and I think could not be rendered easily attainable by attaching a
> > > set of instructions. So sadly, I have come to the conclusion that I must
> > > recommend e.g. Linux Mint if any newbie who wishes to self-install were to
> > > ask me for my opinion.
> >
> > A serious issue for all Linux distros are codecs. We're living in the
> > media age, consumer need codecs. http://wiki.debian.org/MultimediaCodecs
> > Last time (02 Sep 2012) I tried to upgrade my AV Linux (Debian stable),
> > gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg should be automatically removed. I didn't notice a
> > replacement that should be installed. Conflicts caused by codecs (just
> > one issue) are an issue for most distros I know.
>
> ? I use standard A/V packages (Mplayer and VLC) from Stable (with some
> Backports stuff), and never have any codec issues at all.
>
> What codecs would a typical user encounter that aren't available in
> Debian?
>
> Celejar

"There is at least one extra codec package available for amd64 and i386
machines that is not available from Debian. On amd64, the package is
w64codecs, and on i386, the package is w32codecs." -
http://wiki.debian.org/MultimediaCodecs

"DVDs are usually encrypted with CSS. CSS is not a codec. In any case,
here is some information on playback of encrypted DVDs. All media
players use libdvdcss2 in order to playback these encrypted DVDs " -
http://wiki.debian.org/MultimediaCodecs

It's anyway needed and for good reasons listed on the codec wiki.

"If you want to rip audio CD's to MP3's with e.g. Sound Juicer, you want
to have the "gstreamer0.10-lame" package from e.g.
www.deb-multimedia.org." - http://wiki.debian.org/MultimediaCodecs

Regarding to patents you won't find apps like Cinelerra in an official
repository. Since NLE for video hasn't the capabilities for professional
usage on Linux, at least a good amateur app like Cinelerra should be in
an official repository. Btw. stuff like NLE for video does force people
to use Microsoft and Apple OS, because Linux doesn't provide
professional apps to cut film. That many people don't use Linux isn't
the result of issues when newbies try to install Linux. The bigger
problems are issues regarding to hardware and missing professional
software. I'm using Linux only for audio engineering, but many people
can't use Linux only, because to much is missing for their needs. For
example, I never ever would use Auto-Tune, so I'm not missing stuff like
that, but listen to the charts, there's no song produced without
Auto-Tune.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a Linux only user [1], but IMO it's stupid to
claim that Linux does things better than they can be done using
Microsoft or Apple. Very often Linux can't do things, that are available
for Microsoft and Apple.

[1] Half-truth, I run XP in VBox, to sync a tablet PC, because it
doesn't work with Linux. The cause is an evil vendor, but unfortunately
this planet is an evil place and not Ponyland.


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Old 09-12-2012, 03:16 AM
Celejar
 
Default Installation

On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 04:19:35 +0200
Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net> wrote:

> On Tue, 2012-09-11 at 21:40 -0400, Celejar wrote:
> > On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 22:51:39 +0200
> > Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net> wrote:

...

> > > A serious issue for all Linux distros are codecs. We're living in the
> > > media age, consumer need codecs. http://wiki.debian.org/MultimediaCodecs
> > > Last time (02 Sep 2012) I tried to upgrade my AV Linux (Debian stable),
> > > gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg should be automatically removed. I didn't notice a
> > > replacement that should be installed. Conflicts caused by codecs (just
> > > one issue) are an issue for most distros I know.
> >
> > ? I use standard A/V packages (Mplayer and VLC) from Stable (with some
> > Backports stuff), and never have any codec issues at all.
> >
> > What codecs would a typical user encounter that aren't available in
> > Debian?
> >
> > Celejar
>
> "There is at least one extra codec package available for amd64 and i386
> machines that is not available from Debian. On amd64, the package is
> w64codecs, and on i386, the package is w32codecs." -
> http://wiki.debian.org/MultimediaCodecs

Um, you snipped this line:

"These extra packages provide support for a few rarely used codecs"

This hardly results in "a serious issue for all Linux distros".

[snipped rest of message, which does not deal with actual codecs, but
other software that some users may consider essential.]

Celejar


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Old 09-12-2012, 03:29 AM
"Weaver"
 
Default Installation

On Tue, September 11, 2012 6:40 pm, Celejar wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 22:51:39 +0200
> Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 2012-09-11 at 21:17 +0100, Lisi wrote:
>> > Since Squeeze I think that Debian has removed itself from this market.
>> The
>> > main repository and kernel contain only FLOSS software. I.e. many
>> drivers
>> > are missing and have to be separately installed. This is beyond a
>> total
>> > newbie, and I think could not be rendered easily attainable by
>> attaching a
>> > set of instructions. So sadly, I have come to the conclusion that I
>> must
>> > recommend e.g. Linux Mint if any newbie who wishes to self-install
>> were to
>> > ask me for my opinion.
>>
>> A serious issue for all Linux distros are codecs. We're living in the
>> media age, consumer need codecs. http://wiki.debian.org/MultimediaCodecs
>> Last time (02 Sep 2012) I tried to upgrade my AV Linux (Debian stable),
>> gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg should be automatically removed. I didn't notice a
>> replacement that should be installed. Conflicts caused by codecs (just
>> one issue) are an issue for most distros I know.
>
> ? I use standard A/V packages (Mplayer and VLC) from Stable (with some
> Backports stuff), and never have any codec issues at all.
>
> What codecs would a typical user encounter that aren't available in
> Debian?

Just off the top of my head: libdvdcss2

It's not the packages that worry me.
It's just shuffling round trying to find which ones fit and what other
configs are needed.
I only just got video working on this box because I'm still living in the
olden days and had it configured for /dev/dvd instead of /dev/sc0.

After I got everything working, of course, I discovered the appropriate
documentation.
Regards,

Weaver
--
"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government."
-- Thomas Paine



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Old 09-12-2012, 06:07 AM
Andrei POPESCU
 
Default Installation

On Ma, 11 sep 12, 12:29:42, Weaver wrote:
>
> I am advocating the elimination of that lack of knowledge.

You are assuming the user is interested in learning. In my experience it
is rather the contrary.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Old 09-12-2012, 06:09 AM
Andrei POPESCU
 
Default Installation

On Ma, 11 sep 12, 21:17:52, Lisi wrote:
>
> I apologise to anyone who feels that my use of English is pompous. I think
> that to try and talk in baby talk is insulting to those for whom English is a
> second language (or third or fourth!). Not to mention the fact that I simply
> don't know which words I can expect someone else to know. Much better in my
> opinion (and it is only a matter of opinion) to talk properly to foreigners
> and children. How else can they enlarge their vocabularies?

+100 from a person who's English is competing for the second place

> I am more than willing to explain anything that I have said that someone finds
> incomprehensible. And if someone is hesitant about asking "in public",
> please feel free to email me off list to ask.

I'm actually considering something like "feel free to correct my
English" in my sig.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Old 09-12-2012, 06:22 AM
Andrei POPESCU
 
Default Installation

On Ma, 11 sep 12, 14:47:57, Weaver wrote:
>
> There is a stage where the installer asks for contrib and non-free apt
> list inclusions.

Only for expert installs AFAIK.

> It would probably be best to incorporate this as a default in a newbie
> install.

In my opinion that would be a bad idea. While I can accept that some
(most?) people don't want or need to know about the intricacies of an
operating system I think they should be educated about their freedom (or
lack of).

They may end up giving it up and install non-free software (like many of
us do as well), but at least it would be an informed decision.

> Perhaps a note to explain this could be incorporated - 'If you are new to
> open source free software, we recommend that you accept this option'- or
> something along those lines might be appropriate.

Debian is currently investigating *possibly*[1] removing any reference
to non-free that might be considered a recommendation, in order to be
accepted by the FSF as a free distro.

[1] Debian may still end up keeping references to non-free if it
considers the service to the users is more important than acceptance by
the FSF.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:41 AM
Celejar
 
Default Installation

On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 20:29:50 -0700
"Weaver" <weaver@riseup.net> wrote:

>
> On Tue, September 11, 2012 6:40 pm, Celejar wrote:
> > On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 22:51:39 +0200
> > Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 2012-09-11 at 21:17 +0100, Lisi wrote:
> >> > Since Squeeze I think that Debian has removed itself from this market.
> >> The
> >> > main repository and kernel contain only FLOSS software. I.e. many
> >> drivers
> >> > are missing and have to be separately installed. This is beyond a
> >> total
> >> > newbie, and I think could not be rendered easily attainable by
> >> attaching a
> >> > set of instructions. So sadly, I have come to the conclusion that I
> >> must
> >> > recommend e.g. Linux Mint if any newbie who wishes to self-install
> >> were to
> >> > ask me for my opinion.
> >>
> >> A serious issue for all Linux distros are codecs. We're living in the
> >> media age, consumer need codecs. http://wiki.debian.org/MultimediaCodecs
> >> Last time (02 Sep 2012) I tried to upgrade my AV Linux (Debian stable),
> >> gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg should be automatically removed. I didn't notice a
> >> replacement that should be installed. Conflicts caused by codecs (just
> >> one issue) are an issue for most distros I know.
> >
> > ? I use standard A/V packages (Mplayer and VLC) from Stable (with some
> > Backports stuff), and never have any codec issues at all.
> >
> > What codecs would a typical user encounter that aren't available in
> > Debian?
>
> Just off the top of my head: libdvdcss2

Not a codec, but I understand your point. But there really aren't a
whole lot more, AFAIK.

Celejar


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Old 09-12-2012, 10:59 AM
steef
 
Default Installation

On 11-09-12 08:00, Andrei POPESCU wrote:



Unfortunately updates are turned off (of course), which makes those
systems easy prey for viruses/worms/etc. and they end up in botnets



hi andrei,

this is not true in my native tongue: dutch. i am in possession of a dvd
with all hacked versions of W7, included all regular automated
update_possibilities.


i keep this dvd and older cdrom's with the same possibilities for older
windoze-distros as a kind os curiosum.


why should i use them if use for more than 10 years a trustworthy distro
like debian.


kind regards,

steef


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Old 09-12-2012, 11:32 AM
Andrei POPESCU
 
Default Installation

On Ma, 11 sep 12, 21:17:52, Lisi wrote:
>
> Since Squeeze I think that Debian has removed itself from this market. The
> main repository and kernel contain only FLOSS software. I.e. many drivers
> are missing and have to be separately installed. This is beyond a total
> newbie, and I think could not be rendered easily attainable by attaching a
> set of instructions. So sadly, I have come to the conclusion that I must
> recommend e.g. Linux Mint if any newbie who wishes to self-install were to
> ask me for my opinion.

You may not be aware of the unofficial installer that includes firmware:
http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Old 09-12-2012, 11:45 AM
Chris Bannister
 
Default Installation

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 09:52:47PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> don't install German language packages. To post English output of
> commands on a German mailing list wouldn't be good.

Don't you mean German output?

Anyway, to post English output if your locale is non-English, just
prepend LC=C before the command.

e.g % LC=C apt-cache policy zsh-beta

--
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who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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