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Old 03-25-2012, 10:38 AM
Eero Tamminen
 
Default About Xubuntu Artwork

Hi,

On lauantai 24 maaliskuu 2012, Pasi Lallinaho wrote:
> On 03/24/2012 08:22 PM, Ernesto Acosta wrote:
> > # About Applications
> >
> > There are some applications which I think can be replaced with more
> > light and thus do not depend on Gnome.
> >
> > Gcalctool can be replaced with Galculator
> > Evince can be replaced with ePDFView

Because Gcalctool & Evince already use Gtk3 while XFCE is still
using Gtk2 and you don't want to have two Gtk versions until XFCE
moves to Gtk3?


> > Ristretto has greatly improved but may be replaced by Mirage.

Mirage uses Python whereas Ristretto uses XFCE libraries.
Why do you think it to be lighter, and lighter in which way[1]?


> Is there some performance comparisons for these applications?

Based on the Xubuntu strategy document:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument

Performance is considered only after the other requirements
(integration and usability) have been met.

So, unless that has changed, first the new applications:
- stability / maturity
- XFCE desktop/file-manager/themeing integration
- localization coverage
- accessibility support (if package uses Gtk that should be fine)

Need to be compared to the old applications.


I found localization statistics for Ubuntu from here:
http://people.canonical.com/~dpm/data/ubuntu-l10n/

But it seems to be lacking data for the proposed applications
and for XFCE applications:
--------------
stats=precise-package-stats.log;
for pkg in epdfview evince gcalctool gcalculator mirage ristretto; do
awk -F '|' '
BEGIN {
count=0; total=0; max=0; min=99999;
}
/^'$pkg' / {
count+=1; total+=$7; if($7>max) max=$7; if($7<min) min=$7;
}
END {
if (count)
printf("'$pkg': %d translations
- max %d, avg %d, min %d
strings
", count, max, total/count, min);
else
printf("'$pkg': 0 translations
");
}' $stats; done
--------------

As that produces:
--------------
epdfview: 0 translations
evince: 112 translations
- max 376, avg 281, min 1 strings
gcalctool: 107 translations
- max 433, avg 268, min 1 strings
gcalculator: 0 translations
mirage: 0 translations
ristoretto: 0 translations
--------------

When I looked more into this, gcalculator wasn't even in Ubuntu
repos, although it seems to be in Debian...


> The fact is that it is more work to replace than keep an application, so
> there needs to be good rationale to change an application. That being
> said, it is not completely unlikely that an application will be replaced
> by another application, as long as there is somebody to write
> comparisons, test the applications, willing to report bugs and follow-up
> on getting them fixed and eventually, taking all this into account when
> rationalizing the application change to the team.

[1] Way too often people just blindly look at package dependencies, which
are already in Xubuntu and getting rid of them not helping performance,
memory or disk usage a bit.

And when measuring memory usage, people pointlessly look at the non-relevant
VmSize and RSS numbers from "top" when they should be looking at the private
dirty + swap, private clean and PSS numbers from /proc/PID/smaps and also
X resource consumption.

gnome-system-monitor app shows most of these values. "Memory" column
seems to be PSS (Proportional Set Size) and Writable column private
dirty and X resources usage is in X server memory column.


> > Xubuntu also includes too many language packs, you do not understand if
> > you end the LiveCD runs in English. Sure, I guess when you are
> > installing, and using another language, English and Spanish are not the
> > only ones on our planet, but I think there should be an option for you,
> > after installing, removal of unnecessary language as our preferences
>
> The idea behind this is to provide desktops in preferred languages even
> for those, who do not have access to internet.

And for them to be able to test the live-CD and to install Xubuntu in
the first place, it needs to be localized to the correct language.

Which means that they need to be present on the installation CD / DVD.


> As far as I know, no language packs should be left installed unless you
> selected them.

It should be. However, note that language packs don't cover all of
the software, just the desktop stuff.


To get rid of all extra localization for all packages, one needs to install
"localepurge" package. This provides an apt hook to remove extra languages
always after packaging setup has changed (= slows down package updates).

However, if one's running so low on disk space that he wants to use
localepurge, I would first recomment setting apt options that limit
the apt cache size:
APT::Periodic::MaxAge (maybe also APT::Periodic::MinAge)
APT::Periodic::MaxSize

And installing most packages with apt --no-install-recommends option.

(Both localepurge and --no-install-recommends result in unsupported Debian
and Ubuntu configurations, so one should know something of packaging before
using them.)


- Eero

--
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xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
 
Old 03-26-2012, 01:04 PM
Ernesto Acosta
 
Default About Xubuntu Artwork

Sorry I could not respond earlier. Thank you very much for your time and
I fully understand your point of view. I think I have the answers I
expected, I just want to write something about the logo.

Although not observe any relationship, when you think about Xubuntu, you
think of Xfce. As Kubuntu logo itself is related to KDE, I think the
logo of Xubuntu if you have to be related to Xfce. But then, as I said
before, I'm not a designer, and you should understand better than me all
this.

Thanks again for your reply.

El sáb, 24 mar, 2012, a las 08:55 , Pasi Lallinaho escribió:
> Hey Ernesto!
>
> On 03/24/2012 08:22 PM, Ernesto Acosta wrote:
> > Hi everybody:
> >
> > # About Artwork
> >
> > I am writing to offer some suggestions and ideas for Xubuntu 12.04.
> >
> > First of all, I think the Xubuntu Artwork is very separate from the
> > original design of Ubuntu. I think it would be a good idea, that include
> > Xubuntu also Ambiance & Radiance by default. It would also be positive
> > default Xfwm buttons were left default, as in OS X and Unity.
> >
> > Thus, a user wishing to leave Unity and want to try Xubuntu, you'll find
> > a similar interface. I do not know what the idea of ​​the design team
> > Xubuntu, but it would be good to rate the possibility of a similar
> > appearance to that of Ubuntu. Just a suggestion. In fact, the job of
> > carrying Ambiance & Radiance is already done for Xfce.
> >
> > http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Ambiance+% 26 + Radiance + Themes
> > + for + Xfce% 26LXDE? content = 146674
>
> I personally think variety is good. I think it's an important and wise
> move from Canonical to let derivatives define their own individual
> appearance and more generally speaking, let them define their own image.
>
> I don't know if the Xfce-versions of Ambiance and Radiance are in the
> repositories already. If they aren't, I'm not against including them
> there. However, that's where I would leave it; we cut down the amount of
> themes to be installed to the default Xubuntu installation, and I see no
> reason to treat the Ambiance and Radiance themes differently.
> Ultimately, the user can select what to install and remove anyway.
>
> > # About logo
> >
> > Another topic I wanted to talk, is about the new logo for Xubuntu. I'm
> > no designer, but when I look I do not really show anything related to
> > Xfce. The previous logo gave us more or less a better idea. I made a
> > proposal, which leave them below.
> >
> > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork/Proposed/Precise_Xubuntu_Logo
>
> I don't think why the new logo should have a strong association with
> Xfce. Xubuntu is not in any kind of offical association with Xfce and
> thus it is not obliged to use any Xfce logo element in its logo. Having
> some kind of reference is good, and;
> 1) there still is some reference to the Xfce mouse, though a more
> abstract element; the change being a logical step towards less
> complexity, if you look at the previous logo change too; but
> 2) generally, from my point of view, the Xfce mouse is becoming less
> mainstream; it's not even used in the Xfce website frontpage [1] anymore
>
> > # About Applications
> >
> > There are some applications which I think can be replaced with more
> > light and thus do not depend on Gnome.
> >
> > Gcalctool can be replaced with Galculator
> > Evince can be replaced with ePDFView
> > Ristretto has greatly improved but may be replaced by Mirage.
>
> Is there some performance comparisons for these applications?
>
> The fact is that it is more work to replace than keep an application, so
> there needs to be good rationale to change an application. That being
> said, it is not completely unlikely that an application will be replaced
> by another application, as long as there is somebody to write
> comparisons, test the applications, willing to report bugs and follow-up
> on getting them fixed and eventually, taking all this into account when
> rationalizing the application change to the team.
>
> > # About Issues
> >
> > Problems encountered in Beta 1:
> >
> > I guess for being a Beta, all problems will comment below normal. I
> > should also clarify that he had the option to upgrade approximately 300
> > Mb of packages, updating that maybe some of them managed, but my
> > connection would not let me check.
> >
> > Something I did not like is that I went out anywhere the network icon,
> > and you have to configure the menu "Preferences. The icons and desktop
> > items are not updated automatically when added or deleted, so we must
> > update them manually with F5. The menu does not have the option to run,
> > and the application that is responsible for this action, sometimes left
> > by pressing [Alt] + [F2] or delayed more than 10 seconds to run.
> >
> > Changing the keyboard layout, I had to close several applications for
> > changes to take effect. The context menu includes an entry for Search in
> > the folder in which we are but just does not work that option. Trying to
> > remove drivers from NVidia (and I use Intel) these drag Xubuntu Desktop.
>
> Can you file bugs for these issues? Thanks.
>
> > Xubuntu also includes too many language packs, you do not understand if
> > you end the LiveCD runs in English. Sure, I guess when you are
> > installing, and using another language, English and Spanish are not the
> > only ones on our planet, but I think there should be an option for you,
> > after installing, removal of unnecessary language as our preferences
>
> The idea behind this is to provide desktops in preferred languages even
> for those, who do not have access to internet. As far as I know, no
> language packs should be left installed unless you selected them. (Can
> somebody confirm this? Lionel?) If this is not true, can you file a bug
> for this issue too? Thanks again.
>
> > # End
> > Let me clarify two things:
> >
> > 1 - All these suggestions are based on my personal taste.
> > 2 - My English is not very good, so I had to use a translator.
> >
> > Best regards.
>
> Thanks once again, the feedback is much appreciated.
>
> Cheers,
> Pasi
>
> [1] http://xfce.org/
>
> --
> Pasi Lallinaho (knome) » http://open.knome.fi/
> Leader of Xubuntu and Shimmer Project » http://shimmerproject.org/
> Graphic artist, webdesigner, Ubuntu member » http://xubuntu.org/
>
>
> --
> xubuntu-devel mailing list
> xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel




--
Saludos: Ernesto Acosta
url: blog.desdelinux.net


--
xubuntu-devel mailing list
xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
 
Old 03-26-2012, 01:07 PM
Ernesto Acosta
 
Default About Xubuntu Artwork

El dom, 25 mar, 2012, a las 01:38 , Eero Tamminen escribi:
> Hi,
>
> On lauantai 24 maaliskuu 2012, Pasi Lallinaho wrote:
> > On 03/24/2012 08:22 PM, Ernesto Acosta wrote:
> > > # About Applications
> > >
> > > There are some applications which I think can be replaced with more
> > > light and thus do not depend on Gnome.
> > >
> > > Gcalctool can be replaced with Galculator
> > > Evince can be replaced with ePDFView
>
> Because Gcalctool & Evince already use Gtk3 while XFCE is still
> using Gtk2 and you don't want to have two Gtk versions until XFCE
> moves to Gtk3?
>
>
> > > Ristretto has greatly improved but may be replaced by Mirage.
>
> Mirage uses Python whereas Ristretto uses XFCE libraries.
> Why do you think it to be lighter, and lighter in which way[1]?
>
>
> > Is there some performance comparisons for these applications?
>
> Based on the Xubuntu strategy document:
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument
>
> Performance is considered only after the other requirements
> (integration and usability) have been met.
>
> So, unless that has changed, first the new applications:
> - stability / maturity
> - XFCE desktop/file-manager/themeing integration
> - localization coverage
> - accessibility support (if package uses Gtk that should be fine)
>
> Need to be compared to the old applications.
>
>
> I found localization statistics for Ubuntu from here:
> http://people.canonical.com/~dpm/data/ubuntu-l10n/
>
> But it seems to be lacking data for the proposed applications
> and for XFCE applications:
> --------------
> stats=precise-package-stats.log;
> for pkg in epdfview evince gcalctool gcalculator mirage ristretto; do
> awk -F '|' '
> BEGIN {
> count=0; total=0; max=0; min=99999;
> }
> /^'$pkg' / {
> count+=1; total+=$7; if($7>max) max=$7; if($7<min) min=$7;
> }
> END {
> if (count)
> printf("'$pkg': %d translations
- max %d, avg %d, min %d
> strings
", count, max, total/count, min);
> else
> printf("'$pkg': 0 translations
");
> }' $stats; done
> --------------
>
> As that produces:
> --------------
> epdfview: 0 translations
> evince: 112 translations
> - max 376, avg 281, min 1 strings
> gcalctool: 107 translations
> - max 433, avg 268, min 1 strings
> gcalculator: 0 translations
> mirage: 0 translations
> ristoretto: 0 translations
> --------------
>
> When I looked more into this, gcalculator wasn't even in Ubuntu
> repos, although it seems to be in Debian...
>
>
> > The fact is that it is more work to replace than keep an application, so
> > there needs to be good rationale to change an application. That being
> > said, it is not completely unlikely that an application will be replaced
> > by another application, as long as there is somebody to write
> > comparisons, test the applications, willing to report bugs and follow-up
> > on getting them fixed and eventually, taking all this into account when
> > rationalizing the application change to the team.
>
> [1] Way too often people just blindly look at package dependencies, which
> are already in Xubuntu and getting rid of them not helping performance,
> memory or disk usage a bit.
>
> And when measuring memory usage, people pointlessly look at the
> non-relevant
> VmSize and RSS numbers from "top" when they should be looking at the
> private
> dirty + swap, private clean and PSS numbers from /proc/PID/smaps and also
> X resource consumption.
>
> gnome-system-monitor app shows most of these values. "Memory" column
> seems to be PSS (Proportional Set Size) and Writable column private
> dirty and X resources usage is in X server memory column.
>
>
> > > Xubuntu also includes too many language packs, you do not understand if
> > > you end the LiveCD runs in English. Sure, I guess when you are
> > > installing, and using another language, English and Spanish are not the
> > > only ones on our planet, but I think there should be an option for you,
> > > after installing, removal of unnecessary language as our preferences
> >
> > The idea behind this is to provide desktops in preferred languages even
> > for those, who do not have access to internet.
>
> And for them to be able to test the live-CD and to install Xubuntu in
> the first place, it needs to be localized to the correct language.
>
> Which means that they need to be present on the installation CD / DVD.
>
>
> > As far as I know, no language packs should be left installed unless you
> > selected them.
>
> It should be. However, note that language packs don't cover all of
> the software, just the desktop stuff.
>
>
> To get rid of all extra localization for all packages, one needs to
> install
> "localepurge" package. This provides an apt hook to remove extra
> languages
> always after packaging setup has changed (= slows down package updates).
>
> However, if one's running so low on disk space that he wants to use
> localepurge, I would first recomment setting apt options that limit
> the apt cache size:
> APT::Periodic::MaxAge (maybe also APT::Periodic::MinAge)
> APT::Periodic::MaxSize
>
> And installing most packages with apt --no-install-recommends option.
>
> (Both localepurge and --no-install-recommends result in unsupported
> Debian
> and Ubuntu configurations, so one should know something of packaging
> before
> using them.)
>
>
> - Eero
>
> --
> xubuntu-devel mailing list
> xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel

Well, as far as I have understood the Xfce gtk theme has already been
ported to Gtk3. I'm using Xfce gtk theme called a Zukitwo, and
Galculator looks great. Now, I think the interesting point here, is the
subject of translations, where the victor gcalctool ..

Thank you for your answer ^ ^


--
Saludos: Ernesto Acosta
url: blog.desdelinux.net


--
xubuntu-devel mailing list
xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
 
Old 04-06-2012, 10:59 AM
Jarno Suni
 
Default About Xubuntu Artwork

I want that Xubuntu will use such a theme that user can enable full
visibility of user interface components, like Windows Buttons, by
adjusting their properties. This is not the case in Xubuntu 11.04, for
example.

--
http://www.iki.fi/8/

--
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:15 AM
Jarno Suni
 
Default About Xubuntu Artwork

Oh, you can adjust it in Panel preferences (in 11.04), but still can't
find a way to make Windows Buttons look like 3D; the "Show flat
buttons" setting does not make much difference.

--
http://www.iki.fi/8/

--
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