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Old 07-26-2011, 01:29 PM
Kristian Rink
 
Default Replacing GIMP

Am Tue, 26 Jul 2011 14:19:53 +0300
schrieb Jarno Suni <jarno.ilari.suni@gmail.com>:

> I think eog is not bad, it does not use very much RAM, but it is not
> as responsive and does not have as much features as geeqie, which BTW
> recommends imagemagick.

I wonder what kind of features a "default" image viewer should provide?
Rationale: On each of my boxes, apart from having gimp (which still is
my favorite and #1 image processing tool), I end up with installing
gthumb these days even on Xubuntu. Why? Because so far I haven't found
a straightforward and lightweight image viewer that nicely fits into
the XFCE user interface and allows for easy and quick scaling of
digital images downloaded off my camera. imagemagick surely can do so
but it doesn't really have a pleasant UI. I'd easily and quickly go
with eog, ristretto, gpicview or any of these if they were capable of
providing this feature - this is the only feature I use in there which
makes me feel bad for having to wait for Gimp to start up.

Cheers,
Kristian

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Old 07-28-2011, 10:59 PM
Bruno Benitez
 
Default Replacing GIMP

2011/7/26 Kristian Rink <kawazu@zimmer428.net>

Am Tue, 26 Jul 2011 14:19:53 +0300

schrieb Jarno Suni <jarno.ilari.suni@gmail.com>:



> I think eog is not bad, it does not use very much RAM, but it is not

> as responsive and does not have as much features as geeqie, which BTW

> recommends imagemagick.



I wonder what kind of features a "default" image viewer should provide?

Rationale: On each of my boxes, apart from having gimp (which still is

my favorite and #1 image processing tool), I end up with installing

gthumb these days even on Xubuntu. Why? Because so far I haven't found

a straightforward and lightweight image viewer that nicely fits into

the XFCE user interface and allows for easy and quick scaling of

digital images downloaded off my camera. imagemagick surely can do so

but it doesn't really have a pleasant UI. I'd easily and quickly go

with eog, ristretto, gpicview or any of these if they were capable of

providing this feature - this is the only feature I use in there which

makes me feel bad for having to wait for Gimp to start up.



Cheers,

Kristian



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https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Oneiric/DefaultImageEditor

It's a work in progress, but i think its a start

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Old 07-29-2011, 12:08 AM
"Carlos J. Gil Bellosta "
 
Default Replacing GIMP

Hello,

Can GNU Paint crop images? I am not that sure...

Best regards,

Carlos J. Gil Bellosta
http://www.datanalytics.com


2011/7/29 Bruno Benitez <gridcube@gmail.com>:
>
>
> 2011/7/26 Kristian Rink <kawazu@zimmer428.net>
>>
>> Am Tue, 26 Jul 2011 14:19:53 +0300
>> schrieb Jarno Suni <jarno.ilari.suni@gmail.com>:
>>
>> > I think eog is not bad, it does not use very much RAM, but it is not
>> > as responsive and does not have as much features as geeqie, which BTW
>> > recommends imagemagick.
>>
>> I wonder what kind of features a "default" image viewer should provide?
>> Rationale: On each of my boxes, apart from having gimp (which still is
>> my favorite and #1 image processing tool), I end up with installing
>> gthumb these days even on Xubuntu. Why? Because so far I haven't found
>> a straightforward and lightweight image viewer that nicely fits into
>> the XFCE user interface and allows for easy and quick scaling of
>> digital images downloaded off my camera. imagemagick surely can do so
>> but it doesn't really have a pleasant UI. I'd easily and quickly go
>> with eog, ristretto, gpicview or any of these if they were capable of
>> providing this feature - this is the only feature I use in there which
>> makes me feel bad for having to wait for Gimp to start up.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Kristian
>>
>> --
>> xubuntu-devel mailing list
>> xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
>
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Oneiric/DefaultImageEditor
>
> It's a work in progress, but i think its a start
>
> --
> Bruno.-
>
>
> --
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> xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
>
>

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Old 07-29-2011, 06:21 AM
Jarno Suni
 
Default Replacing GIMP

On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 3:08 AM, Carlos J. Gil Bellosta
<cgb@datanalytics.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Can GNU Paint crop images? I am not that sure...

Did you mean gpaint? Natty suggests only xpaint when you type gpaint
in terminal (if gpaint is not installed). Gpaint can add text, but I
did not find undo function.

Does anybody miss layers?

Aren't cropping and resizing the same thing? Or did you mean scaling
the image by resizing?

Tuxpaint is a joke. It talks to you and you can clone animals by it,
but I did not find crop in it.

mtpaint has it all, and it is by default in lubuntu.

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Old 07-29-2011, 06:46 AM
Kristian Rink
 
Default Replacing GIMP

Folks;

reading all along this discussion the last couple of days, I see things
becoming funny in some ways. Comparing apples and pears, anyone?

Am Fri, 29 Jul 2011 09:21:21 +0300
schrieb Jarno Suni <jarno.ilari.suni@gmail.com>:

> > Can GNU Paint crop images? I am not that sure...
>
> Did you mean gpaint? Natty suggests only xpaint when you type gpaint
> in terminal (if gpaint is not installed). Gpaint can add text, but I
> did not find undo function.
>
> Does anybody miss layers?

Yes. I _do_. I have been working with Gimp ever since 0.9.something,
and at the very least, for what I do, layers is an absolutely
essential feature. But this is irrelevant IMHO. Shouldn't the question
be, considering limited amount of space on a live or installation
medium, which application that comes bundled with the default package
provides _most_ value to _most_ users? At the moment, I see a
discussion which ends up merrily mixing various different kinds of
applications, including

1) advanced image retouching / photo processing applications like Gimp
or pinta
2) image management and browsing applications that provide for
more or less extensive simple editing features, such as gthumb, geeqie,
fotoxx, f-spot, shotwell and the like,
3) bare-bone image viewers, such as ristretto, gpicview, eog, ...
4) batch image processing applications such as phatch,
imagemagick+scripting, ... .
5) applications not limited to yet focussed on doing pixel based
painting, such as gpaint, mtpaint, ... .

Maybe except for (1), I am completely convinced for each of these
categories there are 1000+ more applications that easily could be
listed here. So, what provides benefit to an end user using a Live
medium or an easy-on installer without thinking twice?

- Apps in category (1): Maybe not. Gimp still seems considered
user-unfriendly by quite some people (whyever), and overally, the
complexity and feature set of such applications IMHO is something
just needed by advanced users.

- Apps in category (2): Definitely yes. Pretty much everyone owns a
digital camera or at least a camera equipped cell phone of some sort
these days it seems, and the use case of sorting a whole load of
images, browsing them, eventually scaling down one or two to quickly
allow for sending them via e-mail or uploading them to flickr,
facebook, ... seems the use case most likely. Should this ask for an
application that comes with "sharing" support - "upload to flickr"?

- Apps in category (3): Well, not sure, maybe not. Only benefit these
apps provide compared to these in category (2) _might_ be a lower
memory footprint, at the expense of eventually having to work with
two different applications for "viewing" and "rudimentarily
manipulating / sharing" images.

- Apps in category (4): No, not on the default medium. These are expert
applications used by, well, advanced or expert users who have a clear
idea of what they want to do and are looking for an application to do
so.

- Apps in category (5): Not sure, this should basically depend on how
many people actually digitally draw or paint using their
GNULinux/Xubuntu box. I _guess_ the amount of people doing so at
least is way smaller than the amount of people messing with digital
camera stills once in a while.

Well, disclaimer: This is strictly my $0.02 and it is a view on the
world done by someone who is pretty much "photo-centric". However, from
this point of view, I don't think the question is whether to "replace"
the Gimp. The question is whether an advanced application like Gimp is
required or well-placed in a default installation (given it's just and
exactly an "apt-get install gimp gimp-plugin-registry" away. The
question should be what kind of "imaging requirements" Joe Average
might have and how to best meet them.

Personally, I'd vote for inclusion of gthumb as a modestly-weight
"category (2) app" as main image management application in the default
installation which provides image viewing and most of the basic
functions (scaling, cropping in terms of "cutting away" parts of the
photo, removing red eyes, uploading to flickr, facebook,
photobucket, ...) in an easily accessible tool.

Oh well, so much for that.
K.



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Old 07-29-2011, 09:40 AM
Jari Rahkonen
 
Default Replacing GIMP

29.07.2011 09:46, Kristian Rink wrote:


Personally, I'd vote for inclusion of gthumb as a modestly-weight
"category (2) app" as main image management application in the default
installation which provides image viewing and most of the basic
functions (scaling, cropping in terms of "cutting away" parts of the
photo, removing red eyes, uploading to flickr, facebook,
photobucket, ...) in an easily accessible tool.



I have to agree with your analysis. A photo management tool with simple
manipulation and resizing capabilities would seem to be the most useful
category of graphics related applications for the elusive "average"
user. My personal choice would be shotwell, which is admittedly a
bulkier piece of software than gthumb, but still less than half of
gimp's 14 megs (in Natty). It has all the features you just described
and more, but in my experience surpasses gthumb in refinement and ease
of use.


- Jari

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Old 07-29-2011, 12:20 PM
Kristian Rink
 
Default Replacing GIMP

Am Fri, 29 Jul 2011 12:40:19 +0300
schrieb Jari Rahkonen <jari.rahkonen@pp1.inet.fi>:
> "average" user. My personal choice would be shotwell, which is
> admittedly a bulkier piece of software than gthumb, but still less
> than half of gimp's 14 megs (in Natty). It has all the features you
> just described and more, but in my experience surpasses gthumb in
> refinement and ease of use.

I'd go with that. My preferences for gthumb are mainly rooted in my
"old-fashioned" style of working with images in (file system) folders
but I have to admit that some of the features provided by shotwell are
_really_ neat, especially the ability to "vote" for pictures (5 .. 0
"stars") and filter images based upon this "voting", even though I
remember having seen this elsewhere before - Apple? Adding to that,
shotwell seems a more easy-to-use choice for sorting large collections
of images without having much manual work to do.

Cheers,
Kristian

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Old 07-29-2011, 03:40 PM
Jarno Suni
 
Default Replacing GIMP

On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 9:46 AM, Kristian Rink <kawazu@zimmer428.net> wrote:
> Folks;
>
> reading all along this discussion the last couple of days, I see things
> becoming funny in some ways. Comparing apples and pears, anyone?
>
> Am Fri, 29 Jul 2011 09:21:21 +0300
> schrieb Jarno Suni <jarno.ilari.suni@gmail.com>:
>
>> > Can GNU Paint crop images? I am not that sure...
>>
>> Did you mean gpaint? Natty suggests only xpaint when you type gpaint
>> in terminal (if gpaint is not installed). Gpaint can add text, but I
>> did not find undo function.
>>
>> Does anybody miss layers?
>
> Yes. I _do_. I have been working with Gimp ever since 0.9.something,
> and at the very least, for what I do, layers is an absolutely
> essential feature. But this is irrelevant IMHO. Shouldn't the question
> be, considering limited amount of space on a live or installation
> medium, which application that comes bundled with the default package
> provides _most_ value to _most_ users? At the moment, I see a
> discussion which ends up merrily mixing various different kinds of
> applications, including

mtPaint has layers and it is very light.

> 1) advanced image retouching / photo processing applications like Gimp
> or pinta
> 2) image management and browsing applications that provide for
> more or less extensive simple editing features, such as gthumb, geeqie,
> fotoxx, f-spot, shotwell and the like,
> 3) bare-bone image viewers, such as ristretto, gpicview, eog, ...
> 4) batch image processing applications such as phatch,
> imagemagick+scripting, ... .
> 5) applications not limited to yet focussed on doing pixel based
> painting, such as gpaint, mtpaint, ... .
>
> Maybe except for (1), I am completely convinced for each of these
> categories there are 1000+ more applications that easily could be
> listed here. So, what provides benefit to an end user using a Live
> medium or an easy-on installer without thinking twice?
>
> - Apps in category (1): Maybe not. Gimp still seems considered
> *user-unfriendly by quite some people (whyever), and overally, the
> *complexity and feature set of such applications IMHO is something
> *just needed by advanced users.

I would add rawstudio, but it is not made for painting at all.
Rawstudio does not modify your original photo files. Instead, it saves
your setting for each image in hidden .rawstudio folder in image's
folder. Processed images are saved in a folder of your choice. Batch
processing is supported (for scaling at least).

> - Apps in category (2): Definitely yes. Pretty much everyone owns a
> *digital camera or at least a camera equipped cell phone of some sort
> *these days it seems, and the use case of sorting a whole load of
> *images, browsing them, eventually scaling down one or two to quickly
> *allow for sending them via e-mail or uploading them to flickr,
> *facebook, ... seems the use case most likely. Should this ask for an
> *application that comes with "sharing" support - "upload to flickr"?

Some of these have a database of images that may help organizing
images; you have to import images to make your application aware of
them. You can use e.g flickr website to upload your photos, so it is
not necessary to use a local application for that. But there is some
advantage in sharing function, if you use tagging for your photos in
your image management software and want to use the same tags in e.g
flickr. IIRC there are tools specially made for exporting images to
flickr and others.

> - Apps in category (3): Well, not sure, maybe not. Only benefit these
> *apps provide compared to these in category (2) _might_ be a lower
> *memory footprint, at the expense of eventually having to work with
> *two different applications for "viewing" and "rudimentarily
> *manipulating / sharing" images.

Well, if you have qeegie, you won't miss one of these. It can edit
orientation of photos, but otherwise it is just a viewer that can show
everything you want about your images fast. You don't import images by
qeegie or others in this category.

> - Apps in category (4): No, not on the default medium. These are expert
> *applications used by, well, advanced or expert users who have a clear
> *idea of what they want to do and are looking for an application to do
> *so.
>
> - Apps in category (5): Not sure, this should basically depend on how
> *many people actually digitally draw or paint using their
> *GNULinux/Xubuntu box. I _guess_ the amount of people doing so at
> *least is way smaller than the amount of people messing with digital
> *camera stills once in a while.

I don't use Gimp or such often after I found Rawstudio, but I
occasionally use other editors to make things I can not do by
Rawstudio, like adding text.

> Well, disclaimer: This is strictly my $0.02 and it is a view on the
> world done by someone who is pretty much "photo-centric". However, from
> this point of view, I don't think the question is whether to "replace"
> the Gimp. The question is whether an advanced application like Gimp is
> required or well-placed in a default installation (given it's just and
> exactly an "apt-get install gimp gimp-plugin-registry" away. The
> question should be what kind of "imaging requirements" Joe Average
> might have and how to best meet them.
>
> Personally, I'd vote for inclusion of gthumb as a modestly-weight
> "category (2) app" as main image management application in the default
> installation which provides image viewing and most of the basic
> functions (scaling, cropping in terms of "cutting away" parts of the
> photo, removing red eyes, uploading to flickr, facebook,
> photobucket, ...) in an easily accessible tool.
>
> Oh well, so much for that.
> K.
>
>
>
> --
> Kristian Rink * kr@zimmer428.net * http://node.zimmer428.net
> "Time moves in one direction, memory in another."
> (William Gibson)
>
>
> --
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> xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
>



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Old 07-31-2011, 11:22 AM
Kristian Rink
 
Default Replacing GIMP

Am Fri, 29 Jul 2011 18:40:09 +0300
schrieb Jarno Suni <jarno.ilari.suni@gmail.com>:

> mtPaint has layers and it is very light.

Does it support easy loading/storing of layered images into a single
file akin to *psd or *xcf? The last time I checked this, even pinta
wasn't up for that. And even this way: Is this software an average user
needs, or is this "expert" functionality? Is "advanced image processing"
or "digital painting" a use case required to be covered by a standard
installation / live image? I'm not sure.


> I would add rawstudio, but it is not made for painting at all.
> Rawstudio does not modify your original photo files. Instead, it saves
> your setting for each image in hidden .rawstudio folder in image's
> folder. Processed images are saved in a folder of your choice. Batch
> processing is supported (for scaling at least).

Rawstudio and rawtherapee are apps even more specialized than gimp or
pinta IMHO as they only make sense if you (a) do RAW photography at
all, (b) do own a camera providing a RAW format supported by either of
these tools and (c) want and know how to effectively do RAW file
processing on your computer after all. In my opinion, those tools just
should be found maybe on a "graphics oriented" version of UbuntuStudio
but really don't make sense on a default one-size-fits-all installer.


> Some of these have a database of images that may help organizing
> images; you have to import images to make your application aware of
> them. You can use e.g flickr website to upload your photos, so it is
> not necessary to use a local application for that. But there is some
> advantage in sharing function, if you use tagging for your photos in
> your image management software and want to use the same tags in e.g
> flickr. IIRC there are tools specially made for exporting images to
> flickr and others.

Yes, but in my opinion, the "beauty"(?) on a default installation here
lies in an effective, easy-to-use, visually appealing tool to provide
most of this functionality in one pleasant, productive GUI. This is
where gthumb, shotwell or some of the KDE apps do pretty good these
days from my point of view.

> > lower memory footprint, at the expense of eventually having to work
> > with two different applications for "viewing" and "rudimentarily
> > *manipulating / sharing" images.
>
> Well, if you have qeegie, you won't miss one of these. It can edit
> orientation of photos, but otherwise it is just a viewer that can show
> everything you want about your images fast. You don't import images by
> qeegie or others in this category.

I actually tried most of these tools including geeqie (been a heavy
gqview user a couple of years ago), but in the end, its inability to
scale or crop images (which really is a feature I excessively use)
ultimately made me give up on it. Been installing and running a whole
load of "lightweight" image viewers ever since but most of the time
ended up using gthumb again because of all these I tried, it was the
most lightweight one to allow for scaling down or cropping images
without the need to launch gimp. By now, seeing that "amount of images"
also is an interesting aspect to deal with, shotwell slowly starts
gaining my interest however.


> I don't use Gimp or such often after I found Rawstudio, but I
> occasionally use other editors to make things I can not do by
> Rawstudio, like adding text.

I'm not all that much into RAW photography, but the few times I did so
far, I ended up using rawstudio for doing the raw->jpg "development"
and then using gimp to post-process the whole image. From an "advanced"
point of view, I'd like to have both of them in an UbuntuStudio Visual
Edition (or the like), but not on a default desktop installation, same
as eventually I wouldn't see the need to have a multi-track audio
editor or a non-linear video processing tool bundled with such a
package.

Cheers,
K.

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Old 07-31-2011, 12:38 PM
Jarno Suni
 
Default Replacing GIMP

On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Kristian Rink <kawazu@zimmer428.net> wrote:
> Am Fri, 29 Jul 2011 18:40:09 +0300
> schrieb Jarno Suni <jarno.ilari.suni@gmail.com>:
>
>> mtPaint has layers and it is very light.
>
> Does it support easy loading/storing of layered images into a single
> file akin to *psd or *xcf? The last time I checked this, even pinta
> wasn't up for that. And even this way: Is this software an average user
> needs, or is this "expert" functionality? Is "advanced image processing"
> or "digital painting" a use case required to be covered by a standard
> installation / live image? I'm not sure.

You have to save each layer as an image file and then you can save
layers.txt by Layers -> Save as ... And later open layers.txt

I did not find curves tool in mtPaint, but there is such a tool in Rawstudio.

>
>> I would add rawstudio, but it is not made for painting at all.
>> Rawstudio does not modify your original photo files. Instead, it saves
>> your setting for each image in hidden .rawstudio folder in image's
>> folder. Processed images are saved in a folder of your choice. Batch
>> processing is supported (for scaling at least).
>
> Rawstudio and rawtherapee are apps even more specialized than gimp or
> pinta IMHO as they only make sense if you (a) do RAW photography at
> all, (b) do own a camera providing a RAW format supported by either of
> these tools and (c) want and know how to effectively do RAW file
> processing on your computer after all. In my opinion, those tools just
> should be found maybe on a "graphics oriented" version of UbuntuStudio
> but really don't make sense on a default one-size-fits-all installer.

At least Rawstudio 2 can use non-RAW files as source files and you can
do similar tuning limited only by channel bit-dept of such images.
Cropping and scaling make sense when using non-RAW images as well as
when using RAW files as source files. Rawstudio 2 has option to upload
photo to Picasa, Flickr and Facebook, too. I tried Rawtherapee some
years ago and it was much slower than Rawstudio then. Rawswtudio 2 is
available from PPA.

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