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Old 01-06-2011, 07:34 PM
Simon Steinbeiß
 
Default default applications for natty

Hi everyone,
as discussed in the xubuntu-community-meeting today I'd like to start some kind of discussion about the default applications for the next release (natty).
Currently we have Firefox as browser, Thunderbird as email-app and Exaile as musicplayer. Those are the ones I'd personally put up for discussion, but of course we can extend this.

There are some specs I've written a long time ago for the default mail client (at that time it was thunderbird vs. claws), you can find them here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Karmic/DefaultMailClient

In general I've found the wiki-approach semi-helpful. It's good to structure the pros and cons of an app like this, but it's not exactly a discussion starter. If any of you have time/energy to do one of these application comparisons for Natty, that would be really great. (I'm currently too busy with artwork to be able to devote the extra time.)

So for browsers I'd say it's Firefox vs. Midori and Chromium.
For Email apps it's Thunderbird vs. Claws-mail (again).
The selection of music players is pretty large nowadays, not sure what to suggest here.

Ok, this should be enough to get some discussion going.
All the best
Simon

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Old 01-07-2011, 04:30 PM
Glenn de Groot
 
Default default applications for natty

Hello,
here are some of my thoughts:
Chromium looks really odd and alien on linux, and Midori is unstable, so I say stick with FF.Claws-mail is really good and lightweight, it will be a good thunderbird replacement.Exaile is not bad but I like (the new) Audacious a lot.It has a beautiful gtk interface and is the most lightweight player I have seen.
Also, has lightdm ever been considered?It seems to be awesome and much lighter then gdm.Lxdm is good too.
-Glenn

> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 21:34:45 +0100
> From: simon.steinbeiss@elfenbeinturm.at
> To: xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
> Subject: default applications for natty
>
> Hi everyone,
> as discussed in the xubuntu-community-meeting today I'd like to start some kind of discussion about the default applications for the next release (natty).
> Currently we have Firefox as browser, Thunderbird as email-app and Exaile as musicplayer. Those are the ones I'd personally put up for discussion, but of course we can extend this.
>
> There are some specs I've written a long time ago for the default mail client (at that time it was thunderbird vs. claws), you can find them here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Karmic/DefaultMailClient
>
> In general I've found the wiki-approach semi-helpful. It's good to structure the pros and cons of an app like this, but it's not exactly a discussion starter. If any of you have time/energy to do one of these application comparisons for Natty, that would be really great. (I'm currently too busy with artwork to be able to devote the extra time.)
>
> So for browsers I'd say it's Firefox vs. Midori and Chromium.
> For Email apps it's Thunderbird vs. Claws-mail (again).
> The selection of music players is pretty large nowadays, not sure what to suggest here.
>
> Ok, this should be enough to get some discussion going.
> All the best
> Simon
>
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> xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel

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Old 01-07-2011, 06:11 PM
Jim Campbell
 
Default default applications for natty

Hi All,

On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Glenn de Groot <glenn_de_groot@hotmail.com> wrote:







Hello,
here are some of my thoughts:
Chromium looks really odd and alien on linux, and Midori is unstable, so I say stick with FF.Claws-mail is really good and lightweight, it will be a good thunderbird replacement.

Exaile is not bad but I like (the new) Audacious a lot.It has a beautiful gtk interface and is the most lightweight player I have seen.
Also, has lightdm ever been considered?

It seems to be awesome and much lighter then gdm.Lxdm is good too.
-Glenn



If you haven't seen the latest issue, Linux Journal has a quick look at some alternate desktop environments, and the first one featured is Xfce on Xubuntu.* The primary* thing that they noted was that the default Xubuntu install ran with 325mb of RAM used, while Ubuntu's default RAM usage after boot-up was 328mb (by contrast, Lubuntu used just 167mb of RAM).* They actually suggested using Ubuntu with lighter-weight apps (i.e., Installing Ubuntu and replacing Rhythmbox with Exaile, etc.) over using Xubuntu.* (Note that they didn't *dislike* Xubuntu, but just thought it wasn't a big advantage to use Xfce over Gnome.)



Xubuntu may load some useful features that Lubuntu doesn't load, but that RAM usage number is one measuring stick that people use. Would it be worthwhile to consider any changes that might allow for lesser memory usage at boot?* I'd be willing to help with testing out various configurations and reporting back to the group if that would help.



Also, I went back to look at the "Should we use Chromium?" thread from 2009, and a couple of things have changed since then . . . Chromium is now stable (it was in beta at the time), there is a legitimate ad-blocking extension (not just ad-hiding), and it now allows for community translations (meaning we wouldn't be limited to Google Chrome's default language set.).* These were all larger concerns at that time.



I'm indifferent on the mail application.* If it means that we could get rid of Xulrunner (which would require switching to Chromium and Clawsmail), it might be worth considering switching to Clawsmail, too.* I think yelp uses Xulrunner, though, and yelp gets pulled in with some of our gnome-apps, like file-roller.



Jim

*They also incorrectly ascribed the nice-looking theme to work by Canonical.* I'll have to write a letter to the editor about that one.* : )

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Old 01-07-2011, 06:33 PM
Pasi Lallinaho
 
Default default applications for natty

On 01/07/2011 09:11 PM, Jim Campbell wrote:
Hi All,



On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Glenn de
Groot <glenn_de_groot@hotmail.com>
wrote:



Hello,



here are some of my thoughts:



Chromium looks really odd and alien on linux, and
Midori is unstable, so I say stick with FF.
Claws-mail is really good and lightweight, it will be a
good thunderbird replacement.
Exaile is not bad but I like (the new) Audacious a lot.
It has a beautiful gtk interface and is the most
lightweight player I have seen.




I'm all in for gmusicbrowser in the default installation. Don't know
about lightweightness versus Audacious though.








Also, has lightdm ever been considered?
It seems to be awesome and much lighter then gdm.
Lxdm is good too.




LightDM has and is been considered, AFAIK.








-Glenn











If you haven't seen the latest issue, Linux Journal has a quick
look at some alternate desktop environments, and the first one
featured is Xfce on Xubuntu.* The primary* thing that they noted
was that the default Xubuntu install ran with 325mb of RAM used,
while Ubuntu's default RAM usage after boot-up was 328mb (by
contrast, Lubuntu used just 167mb of RAM).* They actually
suggested using Ubuntu with lighter-weight apps (i.e., Installing
Ubuntu and replacing Rhythmbox with Exaile, etc.) over using
Xubuntu.* (Note that they didn't *dislike* Xubuntu, but just
thought it wasn't a big advantage to use Xfce over Gnome.)



Xubuntu may load some useful features that Lubuntu doesn't load,
but that RAM usage number is one measuring stick that people use.
Would it be worthwhile to consider any changes that might allow
for lesser memory usage at boot?* I'd be willing to help with
testing out various configurations and reporting back to the group
if that would help.


I don't really know if it's feasible or technically possible to
accomplish, but we could try disabling services by default, and then
give the user a choice to enable those later (more easily than from
the normal services settings). For example, CUPS isn't needed in
every PC.




Also, I went back to look at the "Should we use Chromium?" thread
from 2009, and a couple of things have changed since then . . .
Chromium is now stable (it was in beta at the time), there is a
legitimate ad-blocking extension (not just ad-hiding), and it now
allows for community translations (meaning we wouldn't be limited
to Google Chrome's default language set.).* These were all larger
concerns at that time.


Switching to Chromium by default sounds good, if it really does much
difference. If it's not a huge saving memory-/performancewise, then
I'd maybe say no.




I'm indifferent on the mail application.* If it means that we
could get rid of Xulrunner (which would require switching to
Chromium and Clawsmail), it might be worth considering switching
to Clawsmail, too.* I think yelp uses Xulrunner, though, and yelp
gets pulled in with some of our gnome-apps, like file-roller.


Thunderbird is something I personally *need*. It being the default
is not mandatory, especially if we can get rid of Xulrunner.



I can completely live without file-roller, if we can find any
replacement, even a bit more memory-consuming. If Yelp truly uses
Xulrunner, would somebody like to find out which apps require Yelp
in the default Xubuntu installation so we can start shooting those
out?




Jim



*They also incorrectly ascribed the nice-looking theme to work by
Canonical.* I'll have to write a letter to the editor about that
one.* : )


Thanks, Jim. That's appreciated



Cheers,

--
Pasi Lallinaho » http://open.knome.fi/
Leader of the Shimmer Project »*http://shimmerproject.org/
Webdesigner, graphic artist, Ubuntu member » IRC: knome @ freenode


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Old 01-07-2011, 06:34 PM
Micah Gersten
 
Default default applications for natty

On 01/07/2011 01:11 PM, Jim Campbell wrote:

> Hi All,

>

> On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Glenn de Groot

> <glenn_de_groot@hotmail.com
<mailto:glenn_de_groot@hotmail.com>> wrote:

>

> Hello,

>

> here are some of my thoughts:

>

> Chromium looks really odd and alien on linux, and Midori is

> unstable, so I say stick with FF.

> Claws-mail is really good and lightweight, it will be a
good

> thunderbird replacement.

> Exaile is not bad but I like (the new) Audacious a lot.

> It has a beautiful gtk interface and is the most
lightweight

> player I have seen.

>

> Also, has lightdm ever been considered?

> It seems to be awesome and much lighter then gdm.

> Lxdm is good too.

>

> -Glenn

>

>

>

> If you haven't seen the latest issue, Linux Journal has a
quick look

> at some alternate desktop environments, and the first one
featured

> is Xfce on Xubuntu. The primary* thing that they noted was
that the

> default Xubuntu install ran with 325mb of RAM used, while
Ubuntu's

> default RAM usage after boot-up was 328mb (by contrast,
Lubuntu used

> just 167mb of RAM). They actually suggested using Ubuntu
with

> lighter-weight apps (i.e., Installing Ubuntu and replacing
Rhythmbox

> with Exaile, etc.) over using Xubuntu. (Note that they
didn't

> *dislike* Xubuntu, but just thought it wasn't a big
advantage to use

> Xfce over Gnome.)

>

> Xubuntu may load some useful features that Lubuntu doesn't
load, but

> that RAM usage number is one measuring stick that people
use. Would

> it be worthwhile to consider any changes that might allow
for lesser

> memory usage at boot? I'd be willing to help with testing
out

> various configurations and reporting back to the group if
that would

> help.

>

> Also, I went back to look at the "Should we use Chromium?"
thread

> from 2009, and a couple of things have changed since then .
. .

> Chromium is now stable (it was in beta at the time), there
is a

> legitimate ad-blocking extension (not just ad-hiding), and
it now

> allows for community translations (meaning we wouldn't be
limited to

> Google Chrome's default language set.). These were all
larger

> concerns at that time.

One problem with Chromium is that there are major updates every 6

weeks, so the default will be ever changing throughout the cycle.


Firefox should only have one major update throughout the cycle.*
Also,

the Chromium debs are larger than the ones for Firefox.

>

> I'm indifferent on the mail application. If it means that
we could

> get rid of Xulrunner (which would require switching to
Chromium and

> Clawsmail), it might be worth considering switching to
Clawsmail,

> too. I think yelp uses Xulrunner, though, and yelp gets
pulled in

> with some of our gnome-apps, like file-roller.

>

> Jim

>

> *They also incorrectly ascribed the nice-looking theme to
work by

> Canonical. I'll have to write a letter to the editor about
that

> one. : )

Yelp should be the only thing using xulrunner at the moment in
Xubuntu

as Firefox and Thunderbird each have their own copy.* If yelp is

ported to webkit, then xulrunner can be dropped, but webkit will
be

pulled in.



Micah





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Old 01-07-2011, 06:51 PM
Allan Button
 
Default default applications for natty

Browser choice is normally based on personal preference. Would it be possible to have a first run menu that asks the end user what browser they want, and what feature sets they would like?
This may be a step backwards, but I think of centos and anaconda asking me what packages I want by default. Something similar but simpler could help cut down on the memory footprint.*
For me on my laptop, I don't need printing support, but would prefer firefox and thunderbird despite them being a little more memory intensive.*
I would also be happy to drop any media application, because my laptop is just used for field work for my company. I used to uninstall openoffice when it was included too.*
If this menu was presented after the install, then apt could be used to fetch the packages. This would free up some space on the cd, and help manage the fact that chromium updates every 6 weeks.*

Allan ButtonSent from my iPhone
On 2011-01-07, at 12:34 PM, Micah Gersten <micahg@ubuntu.com> wrote:



On 01/07/2011 01:11 PM, Jim Campbell wrote:

> Hi All,

>

> On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Glenn de Groot

> <glenn_de_groot@hotmail.com
<mailto:glenn_de_groot@hotmail.com>> wrote:

>

> Hello,

>

> here are some of my thoughts:

>

> Chromium looks really odd and alien on linux, and Midori is

> unstable, so I say stick with FF.

> Claws-mail is really good and lightweight, it will be a
good

> thunderbird replacement.

> Exaile is not bad but I like (the new) Audacious a lot.

> It has a beautiful gtk interface and is the most
lightweight

> player I have seen.

>

> Also, has lightdm ever been considered?

> It seems to be awesome and much lighter then gdm.

> Lxdm is good too.

>

> -Glenn

>

>

>

> If you haven't seen the latest issue, Linux Journal has a
quick look

> at some alternate desktop environments, and the first one
featured

> is Xfce on Xubuntu. The primary* thing that they noted was
that the

> default Xubuntu install ran with 325mb of RAM used, while
Ubuntu's

> default RAM usage after boot-up was 328mb (by contrast,
Lubuntu used

> just 167mb of RAM). They actually suggested using Ubuntu
with

> lighter-weight apps (i.e., Installing Ubuntu and replacing
Rhythmbox

> with Exaile, etc.) over using Xubuntu. (Note that they
didn't

> *dislike* Xubuntu, but just thought it wasn't a big
advantage to use

> Xfce over Gnome.)

>

> Xubuntu may load some useful features that Lubuntu doesn't
load, but

> that RAM usage number is one measuring stick that people
use. Would

> it be worthwhile to consider any changes that might allow
for lesser

> memory usage at boot? I'd be willing to help with testing
out

> various configurations and reporting back to the group if
that would

> help.

>

> Also, I went back to look at the "Should we use Chromium?"
thread

> from 2009, and a couple of things have changed since then .
. .

> Chromium is now stable (it was in beta at the time), there
is a

> legitimate ad-blocking extension (not just ad-hiding), and
it now

> allows for community translations (meaning we wouldn't be
limited to

> Google Chrome's default language set.). These were all
larger

> concerns at that time.

One problem with Chromium is that there are major updates every 6

weeks, so the default will be ever changing throughout the cycle.


Firefox should only have one major update throughout the cycle.*
Also,

the Chromium debs are larger than the ones for Firefox.

>

> I'm indifferent on the mail application. If it means that
we could

> get rid of Xulrunner (which would require switching to
Chromium and

> Clawsmail), it might be worth considering switching to
Clawsmail,

> too. I think yelp uses Xulrunner, though, and yelp gets
pulled in

> with some of our gnome-apps, like file-roller.

>

> Jim

>

> *They also incorrectly ascribed the nice-looking theme to
work by

> Canonical. I'll have to write a letter to the editor about
that

> one. : )

Yelp should be the only thing using xulrunner at the moment in
Xubuntu

as Firefox and Thunderbird each have their own copy.* If yelp is

ported to webkit, then xulrunner can be dropped, but webkit will
be

pulled in.



Micah





--
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Old 01-07-2011, 06:58 PM
Pasi Lallinaho
 
Default default applications for natty

On 01/07/2011 09:51 PM, Allan Button wrote:

Browser choice is normally based on personal preference.
Would it be possible to have a first run menu that asks the end
user what browser they want, and what feature sets they would
like?



This may be a step backwards, but I think of centos and
anaconda asking me what packages I want by default. Something
similar but simpler could help cut down on the memory
footprint.*



For me on my laptop, I don't need printing support, but would
prefer firefox and thunderbird despite them being a little more
memory intensive.*



I would also be happy to drop any media application, because
my laptop is just used for field work for my company. I used to
uninstall openoffice when it was included too.*



If this menu was presented after the install, then apt could
be used to fetch the packages. This would free up some space on
the cd, and help manage the fact that chromium updates every 6
weeks.



Yes and no. I'd like to have those packages on the CD, so that when
you've installed the system you still don't need a CD to be able to
install any media player etc. Not all of us have internet at our
hands all the time, some PC's are really really rarely connected if
ever.




Allan Button
Sent from my iPhone


On 2011-01-07, at 12:34 PM, Micah Gersten <micahg@ubuntu.com>
wrote:





On 01/07/2011 01:11 PM, Jim Campbell wrote:

> Hi All,



>



> On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Glenn de Groot



> <glenn_de_groot@hotmail.com

<mailto:glenn_de_groot@hotmail.com>>
wrote:



>



> Hello,



>



> here are some of my thoughts:



>



> Chromium looks really odd and alien on linux, and
Midori is



> unstable, so I say stick with FF.



> Claws-mail is really good and lightweight, it will be a

good



> thunderbird replacement.



> Exaile is not bad but I like (the new) Audacious a lot.



> It has a beautiful gtk interface and is the most

lightweight



> player I have seen.



>



> Also, has lightdm ever been considered?



> It seems to be awesome and much lighter then gdm.



> Lxdm is good too.



>



> -Glenn



>



>



>



> If you haven't seen the latest issue, Linux Journal has
a

quick look



> at some alternate desktop environments, and the first
one

featured



> is Xfce on Xubuntu. The primary* thing that they noted
was

that the



> default Xubuntu install ran with 325mb of RAM used,
while

Ubuntu's



> default RAM usage after boot-up was 328mb (by contrast,

Lubuntu used



> just 167mb of RAM). They actually suggested using
Ubuntu

with



> lighter-weight apps (i.e., Installing Ubuntu and
replacing

Rhythmbox



> with Exaile, etc.) over using Xubuntu. (Note that they

didn't



> *dislike* Xubuntu, but just thought it wasn't a big

advantage to use



> Xfce over Gnome.)



>



> Xubuntu may load some useful features that Lubuntu
doesn't

load, but



> that RAM usage number is one measuring stick that
people

use. Would



> it be worthwhile to consider any changes that might
allow

for lesser



> memory usage at boot? I'd be willing to help with
testing

out



> various configurations and reporting back to the group
if

that would



> help.



>



> Also, I went back to look at the "Should we use
Chromium?"

thread



> from 2009, and a couple of things have changed since
then .

. .



> Chromium is now stable (it was in beta at the time),
there

is a



> legitimate ad-blocking extension (not just ad-hiding),
and

it now



> allows for community translations (meaning we wouldn't
be

limited to



> Google Chrome's default language set.). These were all

larger



> concerns at that time.

One problem with Chromium is that there are major updates
every 6

weeks, so the default will be ever changing throughout the
cycle.

Firefox should only have one major update throughout the
cycle.* Also,

the Chromium debs are larger than the ones for Firefox.

>



> I'm indifferent on the mail application. If it means
that

we could



> get rid of Xulrunner (which would require switching to

Chromium and



> Clawsmail), it might be worth considering switching to

Clawsmail,



> too. I think yelp uses Xulrunner, though, and yelp gets

pulled in



> with some of our gnome-apps, like file-roller.



>



> Jim



>



> *They also incorrectly ascribed the nice-looking theme
to

work by



> Canonical. I'll have to write a letter to the editor
about

that



> one. : )

Yelp should be the only thing using xulrunner at the moment in
Xubuntu

as Firefox and Thunderbird each have their own copy.* If yelp
is

ported to webkit, then xulrunner can be dropped, but webkit
will be

pulled in.




What about getting rid of Yelp altogether?





Micah






--

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https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel








--
Pasi Lallinaho » http://open.knome.fi/
Leader of the Shimmer Project »*http://shimmerproject.org/
Webdesigner, graphic artist, Ubuntu member » IRC: knome @ freenode


--
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Old 01-07-2011, 07:41 PM
Charlie Kravetz
 
Default default applications for natty

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, 7 Jan 2011 13:11:26 -0600
Jim Campbell <jwcampbell@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Glenn de Groot
> <glenn_de_groot@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > here are some of my thoughts:
> >
> > Chromium looks really odd and alien on linux, and Midori is unstable, so I
> > say stick with FF.
> > Claws-mail is really good and lightweight, it will be a good thunderbird
> > replacement.
> > Exaile is not bad but I like (the new) Audacious a lot.
> > It has a beautiful gtk interface and is the most lightweight player I have
> > seen.
> >
> > Also, has lightdm ever been considered?
> > It seems to be awesome and much lighter then gdm.
> > Lxdm is good too.
> >
> > -Glenn
> >
> >
>
> If you haven't seen the latest issue, Linux Journal has a quick look at some
> alternate desktop environments, and the first one featured is Xfce on
> Xubuntu. The primary* thing that they noted was that the default Xubuntu
> install ran with 325mb of RAM used, while Ubuntu's default RAM usage after
> boot-up was 328mb (by contrast, Lubuntu used just 167mb of RAM). They
> actually suggested using Ubuntu with lighter-weight apps (i.e., Installing
> Ubuntu and replacing Rhythmbox with Exaile, etc.) over using Xubuntu. (Note
> that they didn't *dislike* Xubuntu, but just thought it wasn't a big
> advantage to use Xfce over Gnome.)
>
> Xubuntu may load some useful features that Lubuntu doesn't load, but that
> RAM usage number is one measuring stick that people use. Would it be
> worthwhile to consider any changes that might allow for lesser memory usage
> at boot? I'd be willing to help with testing out various configurations and
> reporting back to the group if that would help.
>
> Also, I went back to look at the "Should we use Chromium?" thread from 2009,
> and a couple of things have changed since then . . . Chromium is now stable
> (it was in beta at the time), there is a legitimate ad-blocking extension
> (not just ad-hiding), and it now allows for community translations (meaning
> we wouldn't be limited to Google Chrome's default language set.). These
> were all larger concerns at that time.
>
> I'm indifferent on the mail application. If it means that we could get rid
> of Xulrunner (which would require switching to Chromium and Clawsmail), it
> might be worth considering switching to Clawsmail, too. I think yelp uses
> Xulrunner, though, and yelp gets pulled in with some of our gnome-apps, like
> file-roller.
>
> Jim
>
> *They also incorrectly ascribed the nice-looking theme to work by
> Canonical. I'll have to write a letter to the editor about that one. : )

I have not seen the Linux Journal article, but would like to mention I
could not install Ubuntu 10.10 in less than 384MB of RAM, while Xubuntu
10.10 installed in 192MB.

Also, what are the differences in hard drive usage? What are the
minimum CPU figures they are willing to discuss?

I don't think we can compete directly, ram for ram, cpu for modern cpu,
hard drive space, etc. I think we have to stand as an alternative to
Gnome, and if a review does not favor that, maybe that review is not
the one to show.

As for using Gnome, the recommendation may be valid, but Ubuntu Natty
will not have Gnome 3, and will default to Unity. If the recommendation
will still be for Ubuntu, we are not going to be able to compete with
it. We have to remain usable for the majority, at the expense of not
trying to compete with Ubuntu/Gnome.

- --
Charlie Kravetz
Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/]
Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com]
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Old 01-07-2011, 08:49 PM
Oliver Brakmann
 
Default default applications for natty

Hi,

On 2011-01-07 21:41, Charlie Kravetz wrote:
> I don't think we can compete directly, ram for ram, cpu for modern cpu,
> hard drive space, etc.

At this point I'd just like to mention that it's the year 2011. Even a
five year old system will have a 2Ghz CPU (maybe even dual-core), at
least one Gig of RAM and a 250GB hard drive. At which point do you
think it might be feasible to drop the "Xubuntu is for under-powered
machines" thing?

> I think we have to stand as an alternative to
> Gnome, and if a review does not favor that, maybe that review is not
> the one to show.
>
> As for using Gnome, the recommendation may be valid, but Ubuntu Natty
> will not have Gnome 3, and will default to Unity.

Well, considering this, how about you shift your priorities away from
the low-end systems thing, and instead focus on those users that like
Gnome the way it is now (panel-based user interface) and don't want any
social network-aware, everything-is-in-the-cloud GUI?

(yeah, I know that Natty will still offer the Gnome panel interface. But
it won't be as polished, will slowly bit-rot, and bugs with it will have
a lower priority.)

Regards,
Oliver

PS: I've been using Xubuntu since the Breezy days and, while it's
awesome, the most annoying thing about it is the apparent need to change
the set of default applications every six months. Why do that?
Stick to one thing, and improve those parts that need tending to!

PPS: I do appreciate that the default applications are Recommends: and
not Depends: of xubuntu-desktop anymore. That was a good move!


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Old 01-07-2011, 09:14 PM
Eero Tamminen
 
Default default applications for natty

Hi,

On perjantai 07 tammikuu 2011, Jim Campbell wrote:
> If you haven't seen the latest issue, Linux Journal has a quick look at
> some alternate desktop environments,

Could you give a link?


> and the first one featured is Xfce
> on Xubuntu. The primary* thing that they noted was that the default
> Xubuntu install ran with 325mb of RAM used, while Ubuntu's default RAM
> usage after boot-up was 328mb

Typically people misunderstand and get Linux memory measurements
completely wrong (Linux optimizes memory usage by using it for some
useful purposes like caches & buffers, it doesn't necessary mean that
it's not available to other apps).

So, how did they measured the memory usage?


> (by contrast, Lubuntu used just 167mb of
> RAM). They actually suggested using Ubuntu with lighter-weight apps
> (i.e., Installing Ubuntu and replacing Rhythmbox with Exaile, etc.) over
> using Xubuntu. (Note that they didn't *dislike* Xubuntu, but just
> thought it wasn't a big advantage to use Xfce over Gnome.)

Except for some immaturity (like lacking service/applet restarting when they
exit), I think Xubuntu's XFCE is actually nicer than Ubuntu's Gnome.

A lot of bloat in Xubuntu seems to[1] come also from:
- non-UI processes (daemons done in python etc)
- panel applets being separate processes
- coupled with above, heavy UI theme could make it much worse

At least first one is stuff inherited from Ubuntu.

[1] I use myself Debian (with KDE), but I've installed Xubuntu for
a relative and checked its memory usage at that point.


> Xubuntu may load some useful features that Lubuntu doesn't load, but that
> RAM usage number is one measuring stick that people use. Would it be
> worthwhile to consider any changes that might allow for lesser memory
> usage at boot? I'd be willing to help with testing out various
> configurations and reporting back to the group if that would help.

And when measuring applications memory usage, people should also
know what they're doing as they typically get that wrong too.

(gnome-system-monitor is pretty decent for checking individual process
memory usages, it at least allows accessing most of the required
information. Smem & xrestop might be more useful for checking the whole
system memory usage.

Note that with applications, it's not important just what their startup
memory usage is, but also how they handle large files or large amount of
files. For example an archiver that keeps the whole archive content in RAM
is a good example of how NOT to do things, but people rarely test this kind
of things when the they compare "memory usage" of applications...


- Eero

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