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Old 12-05-2009, 02:14 AM
"J. Anthony Limon"
 
Default Idea for Lucid (and beyond..)

Hi team,

I just thought I would open the door for some brainstorming in the area
of Lucid and beyond! I have some thoughts I'd like to extend everyone's way.


1) gnome-app-install

Do we really need it? Who really uses it? How stable is it anyways?

I feel gnome-app-install does more harm than good in the XFce desktop.
Firstly it does a poor job of representing the total software in the
repositories. Secondly, we almost *always* send people to Synaptic or
apt-get to install software. Thirdly, I've found it to be HORRIDLY unstable.

On my system I've ---purge autoremove'd it. A nice side effect was that
my XFce menu looks a lot nicer without that wide entry at the top.

2) gnome-system-monitor

I know this app has some serious features that alternatives do not, but
is consistently a source of problems and bugs, primarily in the area of
super high CPU usage and memory leaks, ironic given the nature of the
application.

On my system I use a mixture of xfce4-taskmanager and htop, I'm not sure
if this would be satisfactory on the majority of people's desktops but I
am of the opinion that GSM has to go.

3) Totem

Is the plan to stick with Totem for Lucid? It's kind of stagnant issue
but it's also a difficult one to address with the next release being LTS.

4) GDM

This seems to be an issue entirely out of anyone's hands unless they
want to try making one using xfce libs.

This is about all I can think of right now, but I do know I am missing a
couple things which I will bring up at another time. I feel this is a
good start to a brainstorming. Also, nobody has any intentions of
adopting Pulse Audio into the Xubuntu system, right?

- J

--
xubuntu-devel mailing list
xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
 
Old 12-05-2009, 02:25 AM
Pasi Lallinaho
 
Default Idea for Lucid (and beyond..)

J. Anthony Limon wrote:
> Hi team,
>
> I just thought I would open the door for some brainstorming in the area
> of Lucid and beyond! I have some thoughts I'd like to extend everyone's way.
>
>
> 1) gnome-app-install
>
> Do we really need it? Who really uses it? How stable is it anyways?
>
> I feel gnome-app-install does more harm than good in the XFce desktop.
> Firstly it does a poor job of representing the total software in the
> repositories. Secondly, we almost *always* send people to Synaptic or
> apt-get to install software. Thirdly, I've found it to be HORRIDLY unstable.
>
> On my system I've ---purge autoremove'd it. A nice side effect was that
> my XFce menu looks a lot nicer without that wide entry at the top.
>
I agree you on this. I don't really know gnome-app-install since I
always use apt-get or Synaptic myself. Maybe we should just seed
Synaptic as the default application/repository manager in Lucid?
> 2) gnome-system-monitor
>
> I know this app has some serious features that alternatives do not, but
> is consistently a source of problems and bugs, primarily in the area of
> super high CPU usage and memory leaks, ironic given the nature of the
> application.
>
> On my system I use a mixture of xfce4-taskmanager and htop, I'm not sure
> if this would be satisfactory on the majority of people's desktops but I
> am of the opinion that GSM has to go.
>
For now, I don't think the Xfce components can deliver the same amount
of features and, regretfully, quality. I also like htop, but we can't
consider it as the main application for system monitoring, as it's CLI
and many people fear command line.
> 3) Totem
>
> Is the plan to stick with Totem for Lucid? It's kind of stagnant issue
> but it's also a difficult one to address with the next release being LTS.
>
Agree. There is loads of *decent* video player alternatives. I've never
liked Totem. It sounds it is from the stone-age. I'd really like to see
something else already in Lucid.
> 4) GDM
>
> This seems to be an issue entirely out of anyone's hands unless they
> want to try making one using xfce libs.
>
> This is about all I can think of right now, but I do know I am missing a
> couple things which I will bring up at another time. I feel this is a
> good start to a brainstorming. Also, nobody has any intentions of
> adopting Pulse Audio into the Xubuntu system, right?
>
My personal experience is that PA is only bringing in problems, but if
we can get those sorted out, I can live with it. I hear PA can do
wonderful things once it works.

We probably want to ship Exaile as our default media player for Lucid
also, but I want to finger at the really bad quality of media players in
general in Karmic. Most of them do not work for me at all (read: they
crash constantly or leak into memory).

Cheers,

--
Pasi Lallinaho
Xubuntu Marketing Lead
Web-designer, graphic artist
IRC: knome @ freenode


--
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xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
 
Old 12-05-2009, 07:05 AM
Steve Dodier
 
Default Idea for Lucid (and beyond..)

Hi there,

2009/12/5 Pasi Lallinaho <open@knome.fi>

J. Anthony Limon wrote:

> Hi team,

>

> I just thought I would open the door for some brainstorming in the area

> of Lucid and beyond! I have some thoughts I'd like to extend everyone's way.

>

>

> 1) gnome-app-install

>

> Do we really need it? Who really uses it? How stable is it anyways?

>

> I feel gnome-app-install does more harm than good in the XFce desktop.

> Firstly it does a poor job of representing the total software in the

> repositories. Secondly, we almost *always* send people to Synaptic or

> apt-get to install software. Thirdly, I've found it to be HORRIDLY unstable.

>

> On my system I've ---purge autoremove'd it. A nice side effect was that

> my XFce menu looks a lot nicer without that wide entry at the top.

>

I agree you on this. I don't really know gnome-app-install since I

always use apt-get or Synaptic myself. Maybe we should just seed

Synaptic as the default application/repository manager in Lucid?

Both Synaptic and gnome-app-install are being replaced by the Software Centre (not sure if it's the exact name). This new app brings a few dependencies but it's likely that removing gnome-app-install and synaptic will make enough room on the CD for it.

As long as it doesn't pull mono and gnome* I'm all for giving the new app a try.

Maybe we could ask the desktop team what they think will be ready for Lucid in the software centre, and whether they think they'll be able to replace synaptic in this release.



> 2) gnome-system-monitor

>

> I know this app has some serious features that alternatives do not, but

> is consistently a source of problems and bugs, primarily in the area of

> super high CPU usage and memory leaks, ironic given the nature of the

> application.

>

> On my system I use a mixture of xfce4-taskmanager and htop, I'm not sure

> if this would be satisfactory on the majority of people's desktops but I

> * am of the opinion that GSM has to go.

>

For now, I don't think the Xfce components can deliver the same amount

of features and, regretfully, quality. I also like htop, but we can't

consider it as the main application for system monitoring, as it's CLI

and many people fear command line.
Gnome system monitor monitors system load, network load, ram and swap usage, and HDD usage. It may be doing too much for one's needs, but when you want to know if some app is using all of your bandwidth, it's cool to can check in the system monitor without having to go in command line.


While xftaskmanager may be more appropriate for your needs, gnome-system-monitor is in my opinion better for end users.
*

> 3) Totem

>

> Is the plan to stick with Totem for Lucid? It's kind of stagnant issue

> but it's also a difficult one to address with the next release being LTS.

>

Agree. There is loads of *decent* video player alternatives. I've never

liked Totem. It sounds it is from the stone-age. I'd really like to see

something else already in Lucid.
I can name only one player that also uses a decent backend and that is written with a proper GTK+ GUI. It's Parole, and I'm looking forward to it, but considering that it's rather new, we can't expect it to be as integrated in the desktop yet (for instance, does it already manage to find missing codecs for the user?).


Whats the point of a player with tons of features like audacity, mplayer or vlc if it crashes miserably when you launch a file or if the GUI is difficult to use because of some particular skin, or very debatable keyboard shortcut choices? I'm all for keeping Totem for the LTS, and testing Parole from the very beginning of Lucid+1's release cycle (ie. before alpha 1, and until beta 1 at least, so we can report bugs to Ali and see what's missing from the Xubuntu point of view).

*
> 4) GDM

>

> This seems to be an issue entirely out of anyone's hands unless they

> want to try making one using xfce libs.

>

> This is about all I can think of right now, but I do know I am missing a

> couple things which I will bring up at another time. I feel this is a

> good start to a brainstorming. Also, nobody has any intentions of

> adopting Pulse Audio into the Xubuntu system, right?

>

My personal experience is that PA is only bringing in problems, but if

we can get those sorted out, I can live with it. I hear PA can do

wonderful things once it works.



We probably want to ship Exaile as our default media player for Lucid

also, but I want to finger at the really bad quality of media players in

general in Karmic. Most of them do not work for me at all (read: they

crash constantly or leak into memory).
I was also disappointed by some last-minute performance regressions in Exaile. And the disappearance of some gstreamer codecs in the 64 bit version didn't help (yeah, now Canonical sells them for real money... there is no explanation over why they aren't packaged and free of charge anymore). Exaile 0.3.1 uses GIO, and has a few mem usage optimisations. It also contains some of the missing Exaile plugins/features, and it should be ready for Lucid. I didn't look at the progress done by other players developers recently (except Parole, but as I said back then I think music players should have a music-oriented GUI, which eliminates media players in my point of view). If there are things that you consider wrong in Exaile, it's the time to tell them, because it was clear to me that the switch to Exaile would be done in two parts, and that the goal was a seamless music player in the LTS. I'm still available for working on Exaile.


Concerning PulseAudio, I think Lucid may be the right time for a switch. In fact, it looks like PA and Wine work fine together, and Wine's new sound architecture should be much more friendly with PulseAudio (I don't know when it'll be released as stable though). PA solved a number of recurrent problems I had, but it also introduced new ones.


The first problem is that, whatever people say, PA is NOT compatible with the Gstreamer mixer plugin. This results in sound being muted after login, because xfce4-volumed does something perfectly valid and normal, it fetches the track's volume, and somehow it seems that PA doesn't like that and mutes the volume instead. Switching to PA means writing a PA backend to xfce4-mixer and xfce4-volumed. Trying to write such a backend (and a new frontend) is very high in my To Do list, but I can't tell when I'll be free from the school project I work on at the moment.


I would also like to say that latest releases of xfce4-power-manager are getting more stable, and that it now works rather fine for me. But if you experience bugs with it, please report them directly to bugzilla.xfce.org, Ali (the upstream dev) is responsive and will very likely look quickly into them. It's important to have it work seamlessly in Lucid, since it's a LTS. But I'm quite happy of the switch to xfpm, I must say.


One last thing: do we still want to look into a replacement for Firefox? That'd require some testing, to draw a features table to tell what's really badly missing in Firefox's competitors, so we can see if it can be replaced in the LiveCD. In my opinion the best competitors are Midori and Chromium, and I have a soft spot for Chromium.


--
Steve Dodier
Student at École Nationale Supérieure d'Ingénieurs de Bourges
Free Software Developer
OpenPGP : 1B6B1670

--
xubuntu-devel mailing list
xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
 
Old 12-05-2009, 07:21 AM
"J. Anthony Limon"
 
Default Idea for Lucid (and beyond..)

Steve Dodier wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> 2009/12/5 Pasi Lallinaho <open@knome.fi <mailtopen@knome.fi>>
>
> J. Anthony Limon wrote:
> > Hi team,
> >
> > I just thought I would open the door for some brainstorming in
> the area
> > of Lucid and beyond! I have some thoughts I'd like to extend
> everyone's way.
> >
> >
> > 1) gnome-app-install
> >
> > Do we really need it? Who really uses it? How stable is it anyways?
> >
> > I feel gnome-app-install does more harm than good in the XFce
> desktop.
> > Firstly it does a poor job of representing the total software in the
> > repositories. Secondly, we almost *always* send people to Synaptic or
> > apt-get to install software. Thirdly, I've found it to be
> HORRIDLY unstable.
> >
> > On my system I've ---purge autoremove'd it. A nice side effect
> was that
> > my XFce menu looks a lot nicer without that wide entry at the top.
> >
> I agree you on this. I don't really know gnome-app-install since I
> always use apt-get or Synaptic myself. Maybe we should just seed
> Synaptic as the default application/repository manager in Lucid?
>
>
> Both Synaptic and gnome-app-install are being replaced by the Software
> Centre (not sure if it's the exact name). This new app brings a few
> dependencies but it's likely that removing gnome-app-install and
> synaptic will make enough room on the CD for it.
> As long as it doesn't pull mono and gnome* I'm all for giving the new
> app a try.
>
> Maybe we could ask the desktop team what they think will be ready for
> Lucid in the software centre, and whether they think they'll be able to
> replace synaptic in this release.
>
> > 2) gnome-system-monitor
> >
> > I know this app has some serious features that alternatives do
> not, but
> > is consistently a source of problems and bugs, primarily in the
> area of
> > super high CPU usage and memory leaks, ironic given the nature of the
> > application.
> >
> > On my system I use a mixture of xfce4-taskmanager and htop, I'm
> not sure
> > if this would be satisfactory on the majority of people's
> desktops but I
> > am of the opinion that GSM has to go.
> >
> For now, I don't think the Xfce components can deliver the same amount
> of features and, regretfully, quality. I also like htop, but we can't
> consider it as the main application for system monitoring, as it's CLI
> and many people fear command line.
>
> Gnome system monitor monitors system load, network load, ram and swap
> usage, and HDD usage. It may be doing too much for one's needs, but when
> you want to know if some app is using all of your bandwidth, it's cool
> to can check in the system monitor without having to go in command line.
>
> While xftaskmanager may be more appropriate for your needs,
> gnome-system-monitor is in my opinion better for end users.
>
>
> > 3) Totem
> >
> > Is the plan to stick with Totem for Lucid? It's kind of stagnant
> issue
> > but it's also a difficult one to address with the next release
> being LTS.
> >
> Agree. There is loads of *decent* video player alternatives. I've never
> liked Totem. It sounds it is from the stone-age. I'd really like to see
> something else already in Lucid.
>
> I can name only one player that also uses a decent backend and that is
> written with a proper GTK+ GUI. It's Parole, and I'm looking forward to
> it, but considering that it's rather new, we can't expect it to be as
> integrated in the desktop yet (for instance, does it already manage to
> find missing codecs for the user?).
>
> Whats the point of a player with tons of features like audacity, mplayer
> or vlc if it crashes miserably when you launch a file or if the GUI is
> difficult to use because of some particular skin, or very debatable
> keyboard shortcut choices? I'm all for keeping Totem for the LTS, and
> testing Parole from the very beginning of Lucid+1's release cycle (ie.
> before alpha 1, and until beta 1 at least, so we can report bugs to Ali
> and see what's missing from the Xubuntu point of view).
>
>
> > 4) GDM
> >
> > This seems to be an issue entirely out of anyone's hands unless they
> > want to try making one using xfce libs.
> >
> > This is about all I can think of right now, but I do know I am
> missing a
> > couple things which I will bring up at another time. I feel this is a
> > good start to a brainstorming. Also, nobody has any intentions of
> > adopting Pulse Audio into the Xubuntu system, right?
> >
> My personal experience is that PA is only bringing in problems, but if
> we can get those sorted out, I can live with it. I hear PA can do
> wonderful things once it works.
>
> We probably want to ship Exaile as our default media player for Lucid
> also, but I want to finger at the really bad quality of media players in
> general in Karmic. Most of them do not work for me at all (read: they
> crash constantly or leak into memory).
>
> I was also disappointed by some last-minute performance regressions in
> Exaile. And the disappearance of some gstreamer codecs in the 64 bit
> version didn't help (yeah, now Canonical sells them for real money...
> there is no explanation over why they aren't packaged and free of charge
> anymore). Exaile 0.3.1 uses GIO, and has a few mem usage optimisations.
> It also contains some of the missing Exaile plugins/features, and it
> should be ready for Lucid. I didn't look at the progress done by other
> players developers recently (except Parole, but as I said back then I
> think music players should have a music-oriented GUI, which eliminates
> media players in my point of view). If there are things that you
> consider wrong in Exaile, it's the time to tell them, because it was
> clear to me that the switch to Exaile would be done in two parts, and
> that the goal was a seamless music player in the LTS. I'm still
> available for working on Exaile.
>
> Concerning PulseAudio, I think Lucid may be the right time for a switch.
> In fact, it looks like PA and Wine work fine together, and Wine's new
> sound architecture should be much more friendly with PulseAudio (I don't
> know when it'll be released as stable though). PA solved a number of
> recurrent problems I had, but it also introduced new ones.
>
> The first problem is that, whatever people say, PA is NOT compatible
> with the Gstreamer mixer plugin. This results in sound being muted after
> login, because xfce4-volumed does something perfectly valid and normal,
> it fetches the track's volume, and somehow it seems that PA doesn't like
> that and mutes the volume instead. Switching to PA means writing a PA
> backend to xfce4-mixer and xfce4-volumed. Trying to write such a backend
> (and a new frontend) is very high in my To Do list, but I can't tell
> when I'll be free from the school project I work on at the moment.
>
> I would also like to say that latest releases of xfce4-power-manager are
> getting more stable, and that it now works rather fine for me. But if
> you experience bugs with it, please report them directly to
> bugzilla.xfce.org <http://bugzilla.xfce.org>, Ali (the upstream dev) is
> responsive and will very likely look quickly into them. It's important
> to have it work seamlessly in Lucid, since it's a LTS. But I'm quite
> happy of the switch to xfpm, I must say.
>
> One last thing: do we still want to look into a replacement for Firefox?
> That'd require some testing, to draw a features table to tell what's
> really badly missing in Firefox's competitors, so we can see if it can
> be replaced in the LiveCD. In my opinion the best competitors are Midori
> and Chromium, and I have a soft spot for Chromium.
>
> --
> Steve Dodier
> Student at École Nationale Supérieure d'Ingénieurs de Bourges
> Free Software Developer
> OpenPGP : 1B6B1670
>


A quick reply (for now) .. I think switching to Midori for the sake of
being "Xfce friendly" makes about as much sense as Ubuntu's switching to
Empathy in favor of the much more liked Pidgin just because GNOME is all
for it.

- J

--
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Old 12-05-2009, 08:08 AM
Andrew Stormont
 
Default Idea for Lucid (and beyond..)

Also, nobody has any intentions of


adopting Pulse Audio into the Xubuntu system, right?

I've always considered that a feature

2009/12/5 J. Anthony Limon <j@flippo.net>

Hi team,



I just thought I would open the door for some brainstorming in the area

of Lucid and beyond! I have some thoughts I'd like to extend everyone's way.





1) gnome-app-install



Do we really need it? Who really uses it? How stable is it anyways?



I feel gnome-app-install does more harm than good in the XFce desktop.

Firstly it does a poor job of representing the total software in the

repositories. Secondly, we almost *always* send people to Synaptic or

apt-get to install software. Thirdly, I've found it to be HORRIDLY unstable.



On my system I've ---purge autoremove'd it. A nice side effect was that

my XFce menu looks a lot nicer without that wide entry at the top.



2) gnome-system-monitor



I know this app has some serious features that alternatives do not, but

is consistently a source of problems and bugs, primarily in the area of

super high CPU usage and memory leaks, ironic given the nature of the

application.



On my system I use a mixture of xfce4-taskmanager and htop, I'm not sure

if this would be satisfactory on the majority of people's desktops but I

*am of the opinion that GSM has to go.



3) Totem



Is the plan to stick with Totem for Lucid? It's kind of stagnant issue

but it's also a difficult one to address with the next release being LTS.



4) GDM



This seems to be an issue entirely out of anyone's hands unless they

want to try making one using xfce libs.



This is about all I can think of right now, but I do know I am missing a

couple things which I will bring up at another time. I feel this is a

good start to a brainstorming. Also, nobody has any intentions of

adopting Pulse Audio into the Xubuntu system, right?



- J



--

xubuntu-devel mailing list

xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com

https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel



--
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xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
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Old 12-05-2009, 11:22 AM
Charlie Kravetz
 
Default Idea for Lucid (and beyond..)

On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 09:05:45 +0100
Steve Dodier <sidnioulz@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> 2009/12/5 Pasi Lallinaho <open@knome.fi>
>
> > J. Anthony Limon wrote:
> > > Hi team,
> > >
> > > I just thought I would open the door for some brainstorming in the area
> > > of Lucid and beyond! I have some thoughts I'd like to extend everyone's
> > way.
> > >
> > >
> > > 1) gnome-app-install
> > >
> > > Do we really need it? Who really uses it? How stable is it anyways?
> > >
> > > I feel gnome-app-install does more harm than good in the XFce desktop.
> > > Firstly it does a poor job of representing the total software in the
> > > repositories. Secondly, we almost *always* send people to Synaptic or
> > > apt-get to install software. Thirdly, I've found it to be HORRIDLY
> > unstable.
> > >
> > > On my system I've ---purge autoremove'd it. A nice side effect was that
> > > my XFce menu looks a lot nicer without that wide entry at the top.
> > >
> > I agree you on this. I don't really know gnome-app-install since I
> > always use apt-get or Synaptic myself. Maybe we should just seed
> > Synaptic as the default application/repository manager in Lucid?
> >
>
> Both Synaptic and gnome-app-install are being replaced by the Software
> Centre (not sure if it's the exact name). This new app brings a few
> dependencies but it's likely that removing gnome-app-install and synaptic
> will make enough room on the CD for it.
> As long as it doesn't pull mono and gnome* I'm all for giving the new app a
> try.
>
> Maybe we could ask the desktop team what they think will be ready for Lucid
> in the software centre, and whether they think they'll be able to replace
> synaptic in this release.
>
> > 2) gnome-system-monitor
> > >
> > > I know this app has some serious features that alternatives do not, but
> > > is consistently a source of problems and bugs, primarily in the area of
> > > super high CPU usage and memory leaks, ironic given the nature of the
> > > application.
> > >
> > > On my system I use a mixture of xfce4-taskmanager and htop, I'm not sure
> > > if this would be satisfactory on the majority of people's desktops but I
> > > am of the opinion that GSM has to go.
> > >
> > For now, I don't think the Xfce components can deliver the same amount
> > of features and, regretfully, quality. I also like htop, but we can't
> > consider it as the main application for system monitoring, as it's CLI
> > and many people fear command line.
> >
> Gnome system monitor monitors system load, network load, ram and swap usage,
> and HDD usage. It may be doing too much for one's needs, but when you want
> to know if some app is using all of your bandwidth, it's cool to can check
> in the system monitor without having to go in command line.
>
> While xftaskmanager may be more appropriate for your needs,
> gnome-system-monitor is in my opinion better for end users.
>
>
> > > 3) Totem
> > >
> > > Is the plan to stick with Totem for Lucid? It's kind of stagnant issue
> > > but it's also a difficult one to address with the next release being LTS.
> > >
> > Agree. There is loads of *decent* video player alternatives. I've never
> > liked Totem. It sounds it is from the stone-age. I'd really like to see
> > something else already in Lucid.
> >
> I can name only one player that also uses a decent backend and that is
> written with a proper GTK+ GUI. It's Parole, and I'm looking forward to it,
> but considering that it's rather new, we can't expect it to be as integrated
> in the desktop yet (for instance, does it already manage to find missing
> codecs for the user?).
>
> Whats the point of a player with tons of features like audacity, mplayer or
> vlc if it crashes miserably when you launch a file or if the GUI is
> difficult to use because of some particular skin, or very debatable keyboard
> shortcut choices? I'm all for keeping Totem for the LTS, and testing Parole
> from the very beginning of Lucid+1's release cycle (ie. before alpha 1, and
> until beta 1 at least, so we can report bugs to Ali and see what's missing
> from the Xubuntu point of view).
>
>
> > > 4) GDM
> > >
> > > This seems to be an issue entirely out of anyone's hands unless they
> > > want to try making one using xfce libs.
> > >
> > > This is about all I can think of right now, but I do know I am missing a
> > > couple things which I will bring up at another time. I feel this is a
> > > good start to a brainstorming. Also, nobody has any intentions of
> > > adopting Pulse Audio into the Xubuntu system, right?
> > >
> > My personal experience is that PA is only bringing in problems, but if
> > we can get those sorted out, I can live with it. I hear PA can do
> > wonderful things once it works.
> >
> > We probably want to ship Exaile as our default media player for Lucid
> > also, but I want to finger at the really bad quality of media players in
> > general in Karmic. Most of them do not work for me at all (read: they
> > crash constantly or leak into memory).
> >
> I was also disappointed by some last-minute performance regressions in
> Exaile. And the disappearance of some gstreamer codecs in the 64 bit version
> didn't help (yeah, now Canonical sells them for real money... there is no
> explanation over why they aren't packaged and free of charge anymore).
> Exaile 0.3.1 uses GIO, and has a few mem usage optimisations. It also
> contains some of the missing Exaile plugins/features, and it should be ready
> for Lucid. I didn't look at the progress done by other players developers
> recently (except Parole, but as I said back then I think music players
> should have a music-oriented GUI, which eliminates media players in my point
> of view). If there are things that you consider wrong in Exaile, it's the
> time to tell them, because it was clear to me that the switch to Exaile
> would be done in two parts, and that the goal was a seamless music player in
> the LTS. I'm still available for working on Exaile.
>
> Concerning PulseAudio, I think Lucid may be the right time for a switch. In
> fact, it looks like PA and Wine work fine together, and Wine's new sound
> architecture should be much more friendly with PulseAudio (I don't know when
> it'll be released as stable though). PA solved a number of recurrent
> problems I had, but it also introduced new ones.
>
> The first problem is that, whatever people say, PA is NOT compatible with
> the Gstreamer mixer plugin. This results in sound being muted after login,
> because xfce4-volumed does something perfectly valid and normal, it fetches
> the track's volume, and somehow it seems that PA doesn't like that and mutes
> the volume instead. Switching to PA means writing a PA backend to
> xfce4-mixer and xfce4-volumed. Trying to write such a backend (and a new
> frontend) is very high in my To Do list, but I can't tell when I'll be free
> from the school project I work on at the moment.
>
> I would also like to say that latest releases of xfce4-power-manager are
> getting more stable, and that it now works rather fine for me. But if you
> experience bugs with it, please report them directly to bugzilla.xfce.org,
> Ali (the upstream dev) is responsive and will very likely look quickly into
> them. It's important to have it work seamlessly in Lucid, since it's a LTS.
> But I'm quite happy of the switch to xfpm, I must say.
>
> One last thing: do we still want to look into a replacement for Firefox?
> That'd require some testing, to draw a features table to tell what's really
> badly missing in Firefox's competitors, so we can see if it can be replaced
> in the LiveCD. In my opinion the best competitors are Midori and Chromium,
> and I have a soft spot for Chromium.
>

I do NOT want to look for a firefox replacement and the issues it will
bring into an LTS release. That belongs in the regular release, perhaps
lucid +1. Lucid as an LTS needs to be as solid as we can make it. It is
not the release to test what we can in, but rather, the release to fix
what we can in.



--
Charlie Kravetz
Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/]
Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com]

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Old 12-05-2009, 12:41 PM
Pasi Lallinaho
 
Default Idea for Lucid (and beyond..)

Charlie Kravetz wrote:

On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 09:05:45 +0100
Steve Dodier <sidnioulz@gmail.com> wrote:



Hi there,

2009/12/5 Pasi Lallinaho <open@knome.fi>



J. Anthony Limon wrote:


Hi team,

I just thought I would open the door for some brainstorming in the area
of Lucid and beyond! I have some thoughts I'd like to extend everyone's


way.



1) gnome-app-install

Do we really need it? Who really uses it? How stable is it anyways?

I feel gnome-app-install does more harm than good in the XFce desktop.
Firstly it does a poor job of representing the total software in the
repositories. Secondly, we almost *always* send people to Synaptic or
apt-get to install software. Thirdly, I've found it to be HORRIDLY


unstable.


On my system I've ---purge autoremove'd it. A nice side effect was that
my XFce menu looks a lot nicer without that wide entry at the top.



I agree you on this. I don't really know gnome-app-install since I
always use apt-get or Synaptic myself. Maybe we should just seed
Synaptic as the default application/repository manager in Lucid?



Both Synaptic and gnome-app-install are being replaced by the Software
Centre (not sure if it's the exact name). This new app brings a few
dependencies but it's likely that removing gnome-app-install and synaptic
will make enough room on the CD for it.
As long as it doesn't pull mono and gnome* I'm all for giving the new app a
try.

Maybe we could ask the desktop team what they think will be ready for Lucid
in the software centre, and whether they think they'll be able to replace
synaptic in this release.



2) gnome-system-monitor


I know this app has some serious features that alternatives do not, but
is consistently a source of problems and bugs, primarily in the area of
super high CPU usage and memory leaks, ironic given the nature of the
application.

On my system I use a mixture of xfce4-taskmanager and htop, I'm not sure
if this would be satisfactory on the majority of people's desktops but I
am of the opinion that GSM has to go.



For now, I don't think the Xfce components can deliver the same amount
of features and, regretfully, quality. I also like htop, but we can't
consider it as the main application for system monitoring, as it's CLI
and many people fear command line.



Gnome system monitor monitors system load, network load, ram and swap usage,
and HDD usage. It may be doing too much for one's needs, but when you want
to know if some app is using all of your bandwidth, it's cool to can check
in the system monitor without having to go in command line.

While xftaskmanager may be more appropriate for your needs,
gnome-system-monitor is in my opinion better for end users.





3) Totem

Is the plan to stick with Totem for Lucid? It's kind of stagnant issue
but it's also a difficult one to address with the next release being LTS.



Agree. There is loads of *decent* video player alternatives. I've never
liked Totem. It sounds it is from the stone-age. I'd really like to see
something else already in Lucid.



I can name only one player that also uses a decent backend and that is
written with a proper GTK+ GUI. It's Parole, and I'm looking forward to it,
but considering that it's rather new, we can't expect it to be as integrated
in the desktop yet (for instance, does it already manage to find missing
codecs for the user?).

Whats the point of a player with tons of features like audacity, mplayer or
vlc if it crashes miserably when you launch a file or if the GUI is
difficult to use because of some particular skin, or very debatable keyboard
shortcut choices? I'm all for keeping Totem for the LTS, and testing Parole
from the very beginning of Lucid+1's release cycle (ie. before alpha 1, and
until beta 1 at least, so we can report bugs to Ali and see what's missing
from the Xubuntu point of view).





4) GDM

This seems to be an issue entirely out of anyone's hands unless they
want to try making one using xfce libs.

This is about all I can think of right now, but I do know I am missing a
couple things which I will bring up at another time. I feel this is a
good start to a brainstorming. Also, nobody has any intentions of
adopting Pulse Audio into the Xubuntu system, right?



My personal experience is that PA is only bringing in problems, but if
we can get those sorted out, I can live with it. I hear PA can do
wonderful things once it works.

We probably want to ship Exaile as our default media player for Lucid
also, but I want to finger at the really bad quality of media players in
general in Karmic. Most of them do not work for me at all (read: they
crash constantly or leak into memory).



I was also disappointed by some last-minute performance regressions in
Exaile. And the disappearance of some gstreamer codecs in the 64 bit version
didn't help (yeah, now Canonical sells them for real money... there is no
explanation over why they aren't packaged and free of charge anymore).
Exaile 0.3.1 uses GIO, and has a few mem usage optimisations. It also
contains some of the missing Exaile plugins/features, and it should be ready
for Lucid. I didn't look at the progress done by other players developers
recently (except Parole, but as I said back then I think music players
should have a music-oriented GUI, which eliminates media players in my point
of view). If there are things that you consider wrong in Exaile, it's the
time to tell them, because it was clear to me that the switch to Exaile
would be done in two parts, and that the goal was a seamless music player in
the LTS. I'm still available for working on Exaile.

Concerning PulseAudio, I think Lucid may be the right time for a switch. In
fact, it looks like PA and Wine work fine together, and Wine's new sound
architecture should be much more friendly with PulseAudio (I don't know when
it'll be released as stable though). PA solved a number of recurrent
problems I had, but it also introduced new ones.

The first problem is that, whatever people say, PA is NOT compatible with
the Gstreamer mixer plugin. This results in sound being muted after login,
because xfce4-volumed does something perfectly valid and normal, it fetches
the track's volume, and somehow it seems that PA doesn't like that and mutes
the volume instead. Switching to PA means writing a PA backend to
xfce4-mixer and xfce4-volumed. Trying to write such a backend (and a new
frontend) is very high in my To Do list, but I can't tell when I'll be free
from the school project I work on at the moment.

I would also like to say that latest releases of xfce4-power-manager are
getting more stable, and that it now works rather fine for me. But if you
experience bugs with it, please report them directly to bugzilla.xfce.org,
Ali (the upstream dev) is responsive and will very likely look quickly into
them. It's important to have it work seamlessly in Lucid, since it's a LTS.
But I'm quite happy of the switch to xfpm, I must say.

One last thing: do we still want to look into a replacement for Firefox?
That'd require some testing, to draw a features table to tell what's really
badly missing in Firefox's competitors, so we can see if it can be replaced
in the LiveCD. In my opinion the best competitors are Midori and Chromium,
and I have a soft spot for Chromium.




I do NOT want to look for a firefox replacement and the issues it will
bring into an LTS release. That belongs in the regular release, perhaps
lucid +1. Lucid as an LTS needs to be as solid as we can make it. It is
not the release to test what we can in, but rather, the release to fix
what we can in.


I have to agree with Charlie here. Changing the default browser to
something not Firefox in an LTS release would really make our users
mad, even if it was working. And at this time, I'm not sure if midori
is even working fairly enough.



--
Pasi Lallinaho
Xubuntu Marketing Lead
Web-designer, graphic artist
IRC: knome @ freenode



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Old 12-05-2009, 04:10 PM
Lionel Le Folgoc
 
Default Idea for Lucid (and beyond..)

Hi there,

(I stripped some parts to reduce the size of the mail

On Sat, Dec 05, 2009 at 03:41:03PM +0200, Pasi Lallinaho wrote:
> Charlie Kravetz wrote:
> > On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 09:05:45 +0100
> > Steve Dodier <sidnioulz@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >> Both Synaptic and gnome-app-install are being replaced by the Software
> >> Centre (not sure if it's the exact name). This new app brings a few
> >> dependencies but it's likely that removing gnome-app-install and synaptic
> >> will make enough room on the CD for it.
> >> As long as it doesn't pull mono and gnome* I'm all for giving the new app a
> >> try.
> >>
> >> Maybe we could ask the desktop team what they think will be ready for Lucid
> >> in the software centre, and whether they think they'll be able to replace
> >> synaptic in this release.

There is enough room on the livecd anyway. I think that we *have to*
switch to software-center for lucid, because gnome-app-install has
already been demoted from main to universe in karmic (which means that
Canonical folks don't want to support it anymore, and since they were
the only ones touching it…).

> >>> 2) gnome-system-monitor
> >>>
> >>>> [snip]
> >>>>
> >>> For now, I don't think the Xfce components can deliver the same amount
> >>> of features and, regretfully, quality. I also like htop, but we can't
> >>> consider it as the main application for system monitoring, as it's CLI
> >>> and many people fear command line.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Gnome system monitor monitors system load, network load, ram and swap usage,
> >> and HDD usage. It may be doing too much for one's needs, but when you want
> >> to know if some app is using all of your bandwidth, it's cool to can check
> >> in the system monitor without having to go in command line.
> >>
> >> While xftaskmanager may be more appropriate for your needs,
> >> gnome-system-monitor is in my opinion better for end users.
> >>

We have already xfce4-cpugraph-plugin, xfce4-systemload-plugin,
xfce4-netload-plugin and xfce4-taskmanager. The fact that gnome devs
decided to make a single program (gnome-system-monitor) for that doesn't
imply that we should blindly do the same.

(Anyway, I've no strong opinion on this, I think htop is the best one.
:P)

> >>>> 3) Totem
> >>>>
> >>>> [snip]
> >>>>
> >> I can name only one player that also uses a decent backend and that is
> >> written with a proper GTK+ GUI. It's Parole, and I'm looking forward to it,
> >> but considering that it's rather new, we can't expect it to be as integrated
> >> in the desktop yet (for instance, does it already manage to find missing
> >> codecs for the user?).
> >>
> >> Whats the point of a player with tons of features like audacity, mplayer or
> >> vlc if it crashes miserably when you launch a file or if the GUI is
> >> difficult to use because of some particular skin, or very debatable keyboard
> >> shortcut choices? I'm all for keeping Totem for the LTS, and testing Parole
> >> from the very beginning of Lucid+1's release cycle (ie. before alpha 1, and
> >> until beta 1 at least, so we can report bugs to Ali and see what's missing
> >> from the Xubuntu point of view).

The issue with mplayer, vlc, or any ffmpeg related player, is that they
can't be shipped on a live cd (decision of the TB).

About the missing codecs, I think any gstreamer-based player will be
handled by gnome-codec-install without problem (this is the case for
totem currently, so it might work fine for parole as well).

> >>
> >> [snip]
> >
> > I do NOT want to look for a firefox replacement and the issues it will
> > bring into an LTS release. That belongs in the regular release, perhaps
> > lucid +1. Lucid as an LTS needs to be as solid as we can make it. It is
> > not the release to test what we can in, but rather, the release to fix
> > what we can in.
> >
> I have to agree with Charlie here. Changing the default browser to
> something not Firefox in an LTS release would really make our users mad,
> even if it was working. And at this time, I'm not sure if midori is even
> working fairly enough.

Indeed, there are lots of possible changes:
1/ xfce 4.6 -> 4.8
2/ brasero -> xfburn
3/ totem -> parole
4/ gnome-system-monitor -> xfce4-taskmanager, xfce4-*-plugin
5/ gnome-app-install -> software-center
6/ gnome-screensaver -> xscreensaver
7/ firefox -> midori

As lucid is a LTS, I think we should focus on the most "safe" ones: 5/
and 6/. Keeping gnome-screensaver is dangerous (who knows what stupid
ideas will gnome developers have for lucid? -- currently in karmic,
there's no screen locking without gnome-session); I consider
gnome-app-install as "unmaintained upstream", so we shouldn't keep it
either.

Cheers,
Lionel

--
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