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Old 12-04-2009, 03:50 PM
Jim Campbell
 
Default Xubuntu team direction

Hi All,


*


Although
I was only there for two of the days, and Cody was sick for one of those two days, Cody and I we were able to meet during UDS, and talk about possible plans for
the 10.04 release of Xubuntu.


*
Of course we talked about some of the regular topics (and I'll have a separate email about those), but I wanted to separate out a key component of our plans from any discussions about regular distro-related issues.* Specifically, we need to talk about team leadership and team member roles.*



As you know, after
several releases as the project lead for Xubuntu, Cody wants to step down and
assume the role of a regular contributor.*
I spoke briefly with Daniel Holbach while at UDS, and the community council would prefer that we attempt to come to a decision as a group instead of just bringing the matter to the community council.* It makes sense, as we should be self-directed rather than dependent on an outside group to come to a decision that we may not like (and that may not work for us).





With that, it's really up to us to decide how we handle the transition.* Do we want to continue to have a singular
project leader?* If so, what
responsibilities would that entail, and who could that be?* If we choose not to go that route, or if no
one wishes to assume that role, could a group of people assume particular
leadership roles?* What could this look
like?*


*


We need
to decide this as a community, so please share your thoughts.* What would be best for Xubuntu?* What would you like to see?* What concerns do you have, and how could
those concerns be addressed?* What
role(s) would you be willing and able to assume?* Feel free to share any other questions or thoughts.




Thanks very much,


Jim









--
xubuntu-devel mailing list
xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
 
Old 12-04-2009, 08:05 PM
"J. Anthony Limon"
 
Default Xubuntu team direction

Jim Campbell wrote:
> Hi All,
>
>
>
> Although I was only there for two of the days, and Cody was sick for one
> of those two days, Cody and I we were able to meet during UDS, and talk
> about possible plans for the 10.04 release of Xubuntu.
>
>
>
> Of course we talked about some of the regular topics (and I'll have a
> separate email about those), but I wanted to separate out a key
> component of our plans from any discussions about regular distro-related
> issues. Specifically, we need to talk about team leadership and team
> member roles.
>
> As you know, after several releases as the project lead for Xubuntu,
> Cody wants to step down and assume the role of a regular contributor. I
> spoke briefly with Daniel Holbach while at UDS, and the community
> council would prefer that we attempt to come to a decision as a group
> instead of just bringing the matter to the community council. It makes
> sense, as we should be self-directed rather than dependent on an outside
> group to come to a decision that we may not like (and that may not work
> for us).
>
>
> With that, it's really up to us to decide how we handle the transition.
> Do we want to continue to have a singular project leader? If so, what
> responsibilities would that entail, and who could that be? If we choose
> not to go that route, or if no one wishes to assume that role, could a
> group of people assume particular leadership roles? What could this
> look like?
>
>
>
> We need to decide this as a community, so please share your thoughts.
> What would be best for Xubuntu? What would you like to see? What
> concerns do you have, and how could those concerns be addressed? What
> role(s) would you be willing and able to assume? Feel free to share any
> other questions or thoughts.
>
>
> Thanks very much,
>
>
> Jim
>
>
>

Hi,

Some changes I've had in mind since the 9.10 release is the possibility
of removing gnome-app-install from the default metapackage because it
gives a false impression of what is actually available in the apt
repositories. Perhaps mine was never configured properly but I also
hardly ever used it.. I've since removed it completely.

It would also be nice to encourage the developer (or even help with the
code) to further xfce4-taskmanager due to the bloated nature of Gnome
System Monitor. I'm not trying to sound like an anti-gnome troll or
anything, but even the most hardcore GNOME fan can tell you the
shortcomings of that app. (Specifically simply starting it usually makes
a system hang and it has had serious performance issues for many
releases.) (Source: http://abock.org/2008/09/03/stay-classy-gnome)

If anything else comes to mind I will bring them up in the future and
will keep an eye on developing comments. I look forward to seeing how
this thread develops.

- J

--
xubuntu-devel mailing list
xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
 
Old 12-04-2009, 08:52 PM
Jim Campbell
 
Default Xubuntu team direction

On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 3:05 PM, J. Anthony Limon <j@flippo.net> wrote:




Hi,



Some changes I've had in mind since the 9.10 release is the possibility

of removing gnome-app-install from the default metapackage because it

gives a false impression of what is actually available in the apt

repositories. Perhaps mine was never configured properly but I also

hardly ever used it.. I've since removed it completely.



It would also be nice to encourage the developer (or even help with the

code) to further xfce4-taskmanager due to the bloated nature of Gnome

System Monitor. I'm not trying to sound like an anti-gnome troll or

anything, but even the most hardcore GNOME fan can tell you the

shortcomings of that app. (Specifically simply starting it usually makes

a system hang and it has had serious performance issues for many

releases.) (Source: http://abock.org/2008/09/03/stay-classy-gnome)



If anything else comes to mind I will bring them up in the future and

will keep an eye on developing comments. I look forward to seeing how

this thread develops.



- J



Hi J,

These are good suggestions for the distro itself, but I really wanted this thread to focus on the team leadership and team direction for the coming release.* We'll start a separate thread for specific distro-related improvements and changes once we get the team aspect in order.



I'm not as familiar with you and your background, but we could sure use your help if you are interested in contributing during this release.

Jim

--
xubuntu-devel mailing list
xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
 
Old 12-04-2009, 09:10 PM
"J. Anthony Limon"
 
Default Xubuntu team direction

Jim Campbell wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 3:05 PM, J. Anthony Limon <j@flippo.net
> <mailto:j@flippo.net>> wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Some changes I've had in mind since the 9.10 release is the possibility
> of removing gnome-app-install from the default metapackage because it
> gives a false impression of what is actually available in the apt
> repositories. Perhaps mine was never configured properly but I also
> hardly ever used it.. I've since removed it completely.
>
> It would also be nice to encourage the developer (or even help with the
> code) to further xfce4-taskmanager due to the bloated nature of Gnome
> System Monitor. I'm not trying to sound like an anti-gnome troll or
> anything, but even the most hardcore GNOME fan can tell you the
> shortcomings of that app. (Specifically simply starting it usually makes
> a system hang and it has had serious performance issues for many
> releases.) (Source: http://abock.org/2008/09/03/stay-classy-gnome)
>
> If anything else comes to mind I will bring them up in the future and
> will keep an eye on developing comments. I look forward to seeing how
> this thread develops.
>
> - J
>
>
> Hi J,
>
> These are good suggestions for the distro itself, but I really wanted
> this thread to focus on the team leadership and team direction for the
> coming release. We'll start a separate thread for specific
> distro-related improvements and changes once we get the team aspect in
> order.
>
> I'm not as familiar with you and your background, but we could sure use
> your help if you are interested in contributing during this release.
>
> Jim
>

Ah, I see.

To keep in the spirit of the intended purpose for this thread, I will
say that I would like to help in any way I can. (We'll see how far
reaching my skills can help!) I've been a Linux user for years but
fairly recent to the Debian style system and not too familiar with the
debian package creation process, but I've been an XFce user since the
early 4.0.x betas.

I've just recently come to the Xubuntu distro and subscribed to the
mailing list hoping to get an inside ear on the Lucid release process
and hopefully help steer it in a good direction. (As well as helping
folk when I can!)

- J

--
xubuntu-devel mailing list
xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
 
Old 12-04-2009, 11:49 PM
Pasi Lallinaho
 
Default Xubuntu team direction

Jim Campbell wrote:







Hi All,

*

Although
I was only there for two of the days, and Cody was sick for one of
those two days, Cody and I we were able to meet during UDS, and talk
about possible plans for
the 10.04 release of Xubuntu.

*

Of course we talked about some of the regular topics (and I'll have a
separate email about those), but I wanted to separate out a key
component of our plans from any discussions about regular
distro-related issues.* Specifically, we need to talk about team
leadership and team member roles.*



As you know, after
several releases as the project lead for Xubuntu, Cody wants to step
down and
assume the role of a regular contributor.*
I spoke briefly with Daniel Holbach while at UDS, and the community
council would prefer that we attempt to come to a decision as a group
instead of just bringing the matter to the community council.* It makes
sense, as we should be self-directed rather than dependent on an
outside group to come to a decision that we may not like (and that may
not work for us).







With that,
it's really up to us to decide how we handle the transition.* Do we want to continue to have a singular
project leader?* If so, what
responsibilities would that entail, and who could that be?*
If we choose not to go that route, or if no
one wishes to assume that role, could a group of people assume
particular
leadership roles?* What could this look
like?*

*

We need
to decide this as a community, so please share your thoughts.* What would be best for Xubuntu?* What would you
like to see?* What concerns do you have, and how
could
those concerns be addressed?* What
role(s) would you be willing and able to assume?* Feel free to share
any other questions or thoughts.





Thanks very much,





Jim












Thanks Jim for bringing this topic up. I appreciate it very much.



With all respect to Cody, I think the singular project leader approach
didn't work out too great on some of the situations. Too many times I
thought there was this one guy who always could veto anything any other
leader had done. This was discussed once thoroughly and as Cody said,
he thought working with the rest of the team was easier and kind of
more pleasant. And I couldn't agree more. There wasn't that much
decisions to be done after that, so I don't know if this approach would
have worked in the long run after all.



Thank you again, Cody.



So where am I coming here? Well, I think Xubuntu could benefit from
several leadership roles. Maybe these leaders could form some kind of
council to discuss some important things and bring a shared
conclusion/settlement if the developer community seems to disagree a
lot. If there still would be disagreement and the council couldn't come
to any conclusion, then I think the leader for the particular team
would have the final word.



I once left the Amarok project as I wasn't listened to when I spoke on
artwork and web – even if I was clearly the guy with most experience on
those areas. I've had a fear that the Xubuntu team would slowly slide
into this situation and several coordinated and equal powered leaders
would definitely take away this fear.



Referring to my previous email to the development mailing list [1] I
will focus on other things than previously, but I'm willing to continue
as the Xubuntu Marketing Lead if nobody has any objections about that.
This would probably also mean that I'd be one of the several leaders,
representing marketing and, obviously, artwork.



Whatever the path is we choose to follow, one thing is for sure: we
need more developers.



[1]
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2009-October/007158.html



Cheers,

--
Pasi Lallinaho
Xubuntu Marketing Lead
Web-designer, graphic artist
IRC: knome @ freenode



--
xubuntu-devel mailing list
xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
 
Old 12-05-2009, 12:19 AM
"J. Anthony Limon"
 
Default Xubuntu team direction

Pasi Lallinaho wrote:
> Jim Campbell wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>>
>>
>> Although I was only there for two of the days, and Cody was sick for
>> one of those two days, Cody and I we were able to meet during UDS, and
>> talk about possible plans for the 10.04 release of Xubuntu.
>>
>>
>>
>> Of course we talked about some of the regular topics (and I'll have a
>> separate email about those), but I wanted to separate out a key
>> component of our plans from any discussions about regular
>> distro-related issues. Specifically, we need to talk about team
>> leadership and team member roles.
>>
>> As you know, after several releases as the project lead for Xubuntu,
>> Cody wants to step down and assume the role of a regular contributor.
>> I spoke briefly with Daniel Holbach while at UDS, and the community
>> council would prefer that we attempt to come to a decision as a group
>> instead of just bringing the matter to the community council. It
>> makes sense, as we should be self-directed rather than dependent on an
>> outside group to come to a decision that we may not like (and that may
>> not work for us).
>>
>>
>> With that, it's really up to us to decide how we handle the
>> transition. Do we want to continue to have a singular project
>> leader? If so, what responsibilities would that entail, and who could
>> that be? If we choose not to go that route, or if no one wishes to
>> assume that role, could a group of people assume particular leadership
>> roles? What could this look like?
>>
>>
>>
>> We need to decide this as a community, so please share your thoughts.
>> What would be best for Xubuntu? What would you like to see? What
>> concerns do you have, and how could those concerns be addressed? What
>> role(s) would you be willing and able to assume? Feel free to share
>> any other questions or thoughts.
>>
>>
>> Thanks very much,
>>
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>>
> Thanks Jim for bringing this topic up. I appreciate it very much.
>
> With all respect to Cody, I think the singular project leader approach
> didn't work out too great on some of the situations. Too many times I
> thought there was this one guy who always could veto anything any other
> leader had done. This was discussed once thoroughly and as Cody said, he
> thought working with the rest of the team was easier and kind of more
> pleasant. And I couldn't agree more. There wasn't that much decisions to
> be done after that, so I don't know if this approach would have worked
> in the long run after all.
>
> Thank you again, Cody.
>
> So where am I coming here? Well, I think Xubuntu could benefit from
> several leadership roles. Maybe these leaders could form some kind of
> council to discuss some important things and bring a shared
> conclusion/settlement if the developer community seems to disagree a
> lot. If there still would be disagreement and the council couldn't come
> to any conclusion, then I think the leader for the particular team would
> have the final word.
>
> I once left the Amarok project as I wasn't listened to when I spoke on
> artwork and web – even if I was clearly the guy with most experience on
> those areas. I've had a fear that the Xubuntu team would slowly slide
> into this situation and several coordinated and equal powered leaders
> would definitely take away this fear.
>
> Referring to my previous email to the development mailing list [1] I
> will focus on other things than previously, but I'm willing to continue
> as the Xubuntu Marketing Lead if nobody has any objections about that.
> This would probably also mean that I'd be one of the several leaders,
> representing marketing and, obviously, artwork.
>
> Whatever the path is we choose to follow, one thing is for sure: we need
> more developers.
>
> [1] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2009-October/007158.html
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Pasi Lallinaho
> Xubuntu Marketing Lead
> Web-designer, graphic artist
> IRC: knome @ freenode
>

I concur completely with Pasi,

A council of some sort is (almost) always the best way to handle
community projects. It allows more thought and process as well as serves
as a sort of fail-safe for when someone cannot perform their duties.

As a new member of the community I will continue to find my place within
it that best serves the users and further development of the system
itself. I have several ideas and criticisms I'd like to bring into
'play' concerning the Lucid development process and I think the council
idea would make it easier for smaller voices to be heard and considered.

- J

--
xubuntu-devel mailing list
xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
 
Old 12-05-2009, 12:34 AM
Pasi Lallinaho
 
Default Xubuntu team direction

J. Anthony Limon wrote:

Pasi Lallinaho wrote:


Jim Campbell wrote:


Hi All,



Although I was only there for two of the days, and Cody was sick for
one of those two days, Cody and I we were able to meet during UDS, and
talk about possible plans for the 10.04 release of Xubuntu.



Of course we talked about some of the regular topics (and I'll have a
separate email about those), but I wanted to separate out a key
component of our plans from any discussions about regular
distro-related issues. Specifically, we need to talk about team
leadership and team member roles.

As you know, after several releases as the project lead for Xubuntu,
Cody wants to step down and assume the role of a regular contributor.
I spoke briefly with Daniel Holbach while at UDS, and the community
council would prefer that we attempt to come to a decision as a group
instead of just bringing the matter to the community council. It
makes sense, as we should be self-directed rather than dependent on an
outside group to come to a decision that we may not like (and that may
not work for us).


With that, it's really up to us to decide how we handle the
transition. Do we want to continue to have a singular project
leader? If so, what responsibilities would that entail, and who could
that be? If we choose not to go that route, or if no one wishes to
assume that role, could a group of people assume particular leadership
roles? What could this look like?



We need to decide this as a community, so please share your thoughts.
What would be best for Xubuntu? What would you like to see? What
concerns do you have, and how could those concerns be addressed? What
role(s) would you be willing and able to assume? Feel free to share
any other questions or thoughts.


Thanks very much,


Jim





Thanks Jim for bringing this topic up. I appreciate it very much.

With all respect to Cody, I think the singular project leader approach
didn't work out too great on some of the situations. Too many times I
thought there was this one guy who always could veto anything any other
leader had done. This was discussed once thoroughly and as Cody said, he
thought working with the rest of the team was easier and kind of more
pleasant. And I couldn't agree more. There wasn't that much decisions to
be done after that, so I don't know if this approach would have worked
in the long run after all.

Thank you again, Cody.

So where am I coming here? Well, I think Xubuntu could benefit from
several leadership roles. Maybe these leaders could form some kind of
council to discuss some important things and bring a shared
conclusion/settlement if the developer community seems to disagree a
lot. If there still would be disagreement and the council couldn't come
to any conclusion, then I think the leader for the particular team would
have the final word.

I once left the Amarok project as I wasn't listened to when I spoke on
artwork and web – even if I was clearly the guy with most experience on
those areas. I've had a fear that the Xubuntu team would slowly slide
into this situation and several coordinated and equal powered leaders
would definitely take away this fear.

Referring to my previous email to the development mailing list [1] I
will focus on other things than previously, but I'm willing to continue
as the Xubuntu Marketing Lead if nobody has any objections about that.
This would probably also mean that I'd be one of the several leaders,
representing marketing and, obviously, artwork.

Whatever the path is we choose to follow, one thing is for sure: we need
more developers.

[1] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2009-October/007158.html

Cheers,

--
Pasi Lallinaho
Xubuntu Marketing Lead
Web-designer, graphic artist
IRC: knome @ freenode




I concur completely with Pasi,

A council of some sort is (almost) always the best way to handle
community projects. It allows more thought and process as well as serves
as a sort of fail-safe for when someone cannot perform their duties.

As a new member of the community I will continue to find my place within
it that best serves the users and further development of the system
itself. I have several ideas and criticisms I'd like to bring into
'play' concerning the Lucid development process and I think the council
idea would make it easier for smaller voices to be heard and considered.

- J



The different teams should be able to work on their selves, so not all
of the decisions must go through the council, but only the specific
team leader. If he thinks the subject would raise some constructive
criticism, good discussion or bloody disagreement, he should bring the
subject for the community (council) to review. The teams should work on
what they are experts on as much as possible without too much
bureaucracy and unneeded governance. We all have a shared passion and
we all are experts on what is the best for Xubuntu.



I hope the smaller voices are not feeling they are not heard. If they
do, they should contact their team leader who should bring issues to
broader attention. Every (at least half-sane) idea should be
considered, whether it was between two random contributors, a bigger
group of contributors, the council or the whole (developer) community!

--
Pasi Lallinaho
Xubuntu Marketing Lead
Web-designer, graphic artist
IRC: knome @ freenode



--
xubuntu-devel mailing list
xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
 
Old 12-05-2009, 07:13 AM
Steve Dodier
 
Default Xubuntu team direction

I agree with Pasi that Xubuntu may benefit from a multiple leaders board. A single leader system too often, in my opinion, gave the impression that it was Cody against the others when Cody was disagreeing on something with the rest of the team, because it's hard to know if its the project lead or the developer who disagrees. Having a more equal system would probably help avoiding such bizarre situations.


This being said, I'm willing to take absolutely no responsibilities of any sort. I have enough work with my school, so all the free time I put into FOSS will go to Shimmer projects (which yet match quite a few projects used in Xubuntu, so I may not be competely useless ). This should not restrict me from babbling all over IRC and the mailing list, though.


I'd personally love to see Cody, Pasi, Jim and Lionel (and Vincent?) as that leaders council. You guys are the guys who get the work done, and you all have a long experience with Xubuntu.

I'd also like to say that new contributors or people who want to contribute should not bother too much about the leadership thing. Everyone is welcome in Xubuntu, and if you have feedback about what you feel held or slowed you down from contributing, or about how to make you feel more welcome in our little community, feel free to tell it.

--
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https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
 
Old 12-05-2009, 12:51 PM
Pasi Lallinaho
 
Default Xubuntu team direction

Steve Dodier wrote:
> I agree with Pasi that Xubuntu may benefit from a multiple leaders
> board. A single leader system too often, in my opinion, gave the
> impression that it was Cody against the others when Cody was
> disagreeing on something with the rest of the team, because it's hard
> to know if its the project lead or the developer who disagrees. Having
> a more equal system would probably help avoiding such bizarre situations.
>
> This being said, I'm willing to take absolutely no responsibilities of
> any sort. I have enough work with my school, so all the free time I
> put into FOSS will go to Shimmer projects (which yet match quite a few
> projects used in Xubuntu, so I may not be competely useless ). This
> should not restrict me from babbling all over IRC and the mailing
> list, though.
As I'm the Shimmer Project leader, some of my time will go there as
well. Again, we work on such things that help Xubuntu go forward as
well, but somebody (Lionel :P) probably has to do more work to get the
stuff into Xubuntu.
>
> I'd personally love to see Cody, Pasi, Jim and Lionel (and Vincent?)
> as that leaders council. You guys are the guys who get the work done,
> and you all have a long experience with Xubuntu.
Well, referring to the current leaders table [1], I'm suggesting this
board could consists 6 people rather than the 4 (5) you suggested,
adding Charlie to the list. I'd really love to see his experience on the
council and even see him taking a bit bigger role and shouting out a bit
louder

What comes to Joszef, I really haven't seen him active since I joined as
the Marketing Lead, so I really can't recommend him to join as the
seventh member.
>
> I'd also like to say that new contributors or people who want to
> contribute should not bother too much about the leadership thing.
> Everyone is welcome in Xubuntu, and if you have feedback about what
> you feel held or slowed you down from contributing, or about how to
> make you feel more welcome in our little community, feel free to tell it.
Exactly. Wherever our council meetings will happen, anybody is free to
join and tell their opinions as well. The whole progress should be as
transparent as possible.

[1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Leaders

--
Pasi Lallinaho
Xubuntu Marketing Lead
Web-designer, graphic artist
IRC: knome @ freenode


--
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Old 12-05-2009, 03:42 PM
Steve Dodier
 
Default Xubuntu team direction

See, I knew I was going to forget someone in that list.

--
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