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"compdoc" 09-16-2012 07:57 PM

Ubuntu without pre-installed software?
 
> For example: LibreOffice. Why?

I was once told that installing the Desktop version of Ubuntu on a server
was a lot of 'overhead' for the server, and I never knew what that meant.
Since I rarely use LibreOffice and I never use Thunderbird, etc., how could
all that extraneous software slow it down if it's not running?

Then it came to me: besides the space they take up on the drive, there's
also the maintenance of them: the many downloads of updates, and apt having
to track all those package updates. There is overhead involved.

That last conversation here "minimal CD --> startx" got me to thinking about
how I might eliminate that overhead, so I'm learning to install a desktop on
the Server version of Ubuntu as I type this.

I think it will make for a better server.


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Robert Holtzman 09-16-2012 10:56 PM

Ubuntu without pre-installed software?
 
On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 08:53:07PM +0200, Johnny Rosenberg wrote:
> I've always wondered why there are a lot of things pre-installed in
> Ubuntu and most other GNU/Linux-distributions. Maybe I'm not like the
> rest of humanity, but I always end up uninstalling everything,
> replacing it with the stuff I prefer anyway. It would be easier to fit
> Ubuntu on a CD too, faster to burn it or create the USB stick.

Netinstall?

........snip........

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"Eddie G. O'Connor Jr." 09-17-2012 09:14 AM

Ubuntu without pre-installed software?
 
Not for nothing, but I cease to always be amazed when someone
"complains" about a certain distro not being "custom tailored" to their
specific needs / wants / desires. I can appreciate the fact that a lot
of the time there's usually software included with a distro that lots of
people don't and WON'T use, but if it's that much of an issue for you
then just delete it. Because if you stop and think about the "other"
software company, you get what THEY give you whether you like it or NOT!
And most times you cannot uninstall it. (Ever try removing Internet
Explorer from Windows?...) My advice to you and others who feel that
things aren't' EXACTLY the way you want it? Just "make" it your own!
Whether it's software you need...or DON'T need...or things you want or
DON'T want go ahead and make whatever changes you want....because THAT'S
the REAL "beauty" and "attraction" of Linux.....the ability to make it
as YOU like it!.....Sorry for ranting, but I just had to get that off my
chest.....carry on!



Cheers!


EGO II

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David Fletcher 09-17-2012 09:38 AM

Ubuntu without pre-installed software?
 
Old proverb:-

"Never look a gift horse in the mouth"



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Tom H 09-17-2012 11:15 AM

Ubuntu without pre-installed software?
 
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 5:14 AM, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr.
<eoconnor25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Not for nothing, but I cease to always be amazed when someone "complains"
> about a certain distro not being "custom tailored" to their specific needs /
> wants / desires.

+1

The whole point of a distribution's that its maintainers choose the
packages that they include in its various declinations and the
dependencies that they set up for packages and groups.

One poster in this thread wanted a CD installer to pick and choose
this or that aspect of an install. This is already possible, albeit
not via a GUI. In Ubuntu, you can create a "less heavy" install than
the ones that are produced by the live CDs by using the alt, server,
or mini ISOs or by doing a netboot install and adding packages as you
see fit. I cannot see Ubuntu choosing to publish yet another type of
CD to cater to those who want to pick the packages to install atop a
minimal install with a GUI given the fact that the alt ISO's being
dropped as of 12.10.

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Johnny Rosenberg 09-17-2012 06:23 PM

Ubuntu without pre-installed software?
 
2012/9/17 Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com>:
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 5:14 AM, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr.
> <eoconnor25@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Not for nothing, but I cease to always be amazed when someone "complains"
>> about a certain distro not being "custom tailored" to their specific needs /
>> wants / desires.
>
> +1
>
> The whole point of a distribution's that its maintainers choose the
> packages that they include in its various declinations and the
> dependencies that they set up for packages and groups.
>
> One poster in this thread wanted a CD installer to pick and choose
> this or that aspect of an install. This is already possible, albeit
> not via a GUI. In Ubuntu, you can create a "less heavy" install than
> the ones that are produced by the live CDs by using the alt, server,
> or mini ISOs or by doing a netboot install and adding packages as you
> see fit. I cannot see Ubuntu choosing to publish yet another type of
> CD to cater to those who want to pick the packages to install atop a
> minimal install with a GUI given the fact that the alt ISO's being
> dropped as of 12.10.

I have never tried the netboot install, how does it work? Can I
install Ubuntu with just the most necessary stuff with it? Maybe I'll
try that one next time (a couple of months after april 2014).

Anyway, one small point of all this is that the software center is a
pretty easy place to install software. I don't really see the point in
having a good software centre AND having some things from it already
installed. Why not just let the user install whatever needed from the
software centre (and other places) directly after installing what's
needed for getting Ubuntu up and running? The software centre could be
opened automatically after completed Ubuntu install, and there could
be a category added to the software centre called something like
”Recommended software”, ”We recommend”, ”Cannonical recommends” or
whatever, which could contain LibreOffice, Rhythmbox and all that
stuff that is pre-installed today, and maybe a few more, like Gimp and
more.

It was just a thought, not trying to start yet another ridiculous war
or something.

Of course I remove the software I don't need, I wasn't really
complaining, only suggesting or rather sharing my thoughts. One of the
thoughts was as simple as ”maybe it's easier to install what you want
than to uninstall what you don't want and then install what you want”…

Sorry for clown level English; it's not my native language.


Kind regards

Johnny Rosenberg
ジョニー・*ーゼンバーグ

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Tom H 09-17-2012 09:11 PM

Ubuntu without pre-installed software?
 
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:23 PM, Johnny Rosenberg
<gurus.knugum@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2012/9/17 Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com>:
>>
>> One poster in this thread wanted a CD installer to pick and choose
>> this or that aspect of an install. This is already possible, albeit
>> not via a GUI. In Ubuntu, you can create a "less heavy" install than
>> the ones that are produced by the live CDs by using the alt, server,
>> or mini ISOs or by doing a netboot install and adding packages as you
>> see fit. I cannot see Ubuntu choosing to publish yet another type of
>> CD to cater to those who want to pick the packages to install atop a
>> minimal install with a GUI given the fact that the alt ISO's being
>> dropped as of 12.10.
>
> I have never tried the netboot install, how does it work? Can I
> install Ubuntu with just the most necessary stuff with it? Maybe I'll
> try that one next time (a couple of months after april 2014).

1) I forgot to list debootstrap as an installation option...

2) There's no relationship between the size of an installer and the
size of an installed system (except for live CDs of course). You can
use the smallest installation method to install a full Unity system
and you can use alternative CD (or DVD installers if they exist) to
install the most basic X-less system.

3) Both the netboot kernel and initramfs and the mini ISO are in a
netboot directory on the ISO download servers.

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Avi Greenbury 09-17-2012 09:34 PM

Ubuntu without pre-installed software?
 
Johnny Rosenberg wrote:
> I've always wondered why there are a lot of things pre-installed in
> Ubuntu and most other GNU/Linux-distributions.

The clue is in the name - it's a software distribution, a collection
of software. Most distros aim to provide a whole operating system
complete with all the things you're likely to want to use on it (like
an office suite and a web browser).

Even just doing that isn't obvious - how much of the system is needed
for it to count as a full OS? DSL doesn't ship a Javascript-capable
web-browser by default, but it does ship an implementation of the tile
game Taipei.

> Maybe I'm not like the rest of humanity, but I always end up
> uninstalling everything, replacing it with the stuff I prefer
> anyway. It would be easier to fit Ubuntu on a CD too, faster to burn
> it or create the USB stick.

You fit into a large minority, I'd suggest. There's plenty of
minimalist distros, but as reliable high-speed internet connections
become ever more prevalent it's becoming easier and easier to just
remove things from 'complete' ones.

> For example: LibreOffice. Why? Yes, why? If I want it, I'll install it
> with the debs from http://www.libreoffice.org/ (and I usually do,
> since I find it a lot better than the Ubuntu repository one).

Everything that comes with the distro gets updated by it - if you
install a minimal distro and then a load of software from an
assortment of other sources, you'll need to update each of them
individually (or not run updated versions). Many people prefer the
situation where everything is updated by one tool

> I wish there was an alternate Ubuntu CD for a minimal install. Just
> the necessary stuff for getting started: A web browser, Firefox is
> good enough, the software centre, all those command line tools, of
> course, Gnome, Unity, Compiz but pretty much not much more than that.

You can use the server CD to install almost-nothing and then apt-get
your favourite DE and whatever software you like.

> Or a CD that does a minimal install of Ubuntu, then opens a somewhat
> modified software centre. There could be something like a guide
> letting you know that you need, for example, a media player, then it
> displays maybe the top ten rated ones, letting you choose one or more
> of them for install, then tells you that you might need some office
> stuff, a firewall, web browser and all that, and you can always select
> nothing if you like.

This sounds like a lot more hassle than booting into a 'normal'
install and just deleting everything not wanted. Maybe that one's just
me :)

> Well, that was just some thoughts.

This is a technical support list so, much as these sorts of things are
welcome as part of your search for a solution to the problem, this
isn't a way of getting ideas up to Canonical. There's dedicated
developer lists (and discussions at UDS) that're more for this sort of
thing. That said, it's not something that appears to lie particularly
well with the ideas behind Ubuntu.

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"compdoc" 09-18-2012 07:38 AM

Ubuntu without pre-installed software?
 
This seems the least painful way to create a minimal system, but still
preserves the original Unity desktop and basic system services.

It boots fast too, since no unnecessary services like Bluetooth and Network
Manager are installed...

Install Ubuntu Server, selecting what you like:

OpenSSH server (recommended)
LAMP Server* (optional)
Print server (recommended)
Samba file server (recommended for Windows networks
even if you are not sharing)

*When asked, be sure to enter a password for mysql
and write it down.

Then run:
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get dist-upgrade

To install Unity:
sudo apt-get install --no-install-recommends ubuntu-desktop
sudo reboot

These are required for Dash (HUD) and Nautilus:
sudo apt-get install unity-lens-applications gvfs-backends

Then install some basic programs:
sudo apt-get install firefox gnome-disk-utility gparted ntp
sudo apt-get install mailutils nullmailer smartmontools
sudo dpkg-reconfigure nullmailer (if needed)

And then to clean up a little...
sudo apt-get autoremove



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Johnny Rosenberg 09-18-2012 04:27 PM

Ubuntu without pre-installed software?
 
2012/9/17 Avi Greenbury <lists@avi.co>:
> Johnny Rosenberg wrote:
>> I've always wondered why there are a lot of things pre-installed in
>> Ubuntu and most other GNU/Linux-distributions.
>
> The clue is in the name - it's a software distribution, a collection
> of software. Most distros aim to provide a whole operating system
> complete with all the things you're likely to want to use on it (like
> an office suite and a web browser).
>
> Even just doing that isn't obvious - how much of the system is needed
> for it to count as a full OS? DSL doesn't ship a Javascript-capable
> web-browser by default, but it does ship an implementation of the tile
> game Taipei.
>
>> Maybe I'm not like the rest of humanity, but I always end up
>> uninstalling everything, replacing it with the stuff I prefer
>> anyway. It would be easier to fit Ubuntu on a CD too, faster to burn
>> it or create the USB stick.
>
> You fit into a large minority, I'd suggest. There's plenty of
> minimalist distros, but as reliable high-speed internet connections
> become ever more prevalent it's becoming easier and easier to just
> remove things from 'complete' ones.
>
>> For example: LibreOffice. Why? Yes, why? If I want it, I'll install it
>> with the debs from http://www.libreoffice.org/ (and I usually do,
>> since I find it a lot better than the Ubuntu repository one).
>
> Everything that comes with the distro gets updated by it - if you
> install a minimal distro and then a load of software from an
> assortment of other sources, you'll need to update each of them
> individually (or not run updated versions). Many people prefer the
> situation where everything is updated by one tool
>
>> I wish there was an alternate Ubuntu CD for a minimal install. Just
>> the necessary stuff for getting started: A web browser, Firefox is
>> good enough, the software centre, all those command line tools, of
>> course, Gnome, Unity, Compiz but pretty much not much more than that.
>
> You can use the server CD to install almost-nothing and then apt-get
> your favourite DE and whatever software you like.
>
>> Or a CD that does a minimal install of Ubuntu, then opens a somewhat
>> modified software centre. There could be something like a guide
>> letting you know that you need, for example, a media player, then it
>> displays maybe the top ten rated ones, letting you choose one or more
>> of them for install, then tells you that you might need some office
>> stuff, a firewall, web browser and all that, and you can always select
>> nothing if you like.
>
> This sounds like a lot more hassle than booting into a 'normal'
> install and just deleting everything not wanted. Maybe that one's just
> me :)
>
>> Well, that was just some thoughts.
>
> This is a technical support list so, much as these sorts of things are
> welcome as part of your search for a solution to the problem, this
> isn't a way of getting ideas up to Canonical. There's dedicated
> developer lists (and discussions at UDS) that're more for this sort of
> thing. That said, it's not something that appears to lie particularly
> well with the ideas behind Ubuntu.
>
> --
> Avi

I had no intention to reach Canonical; they wouldn't listen anyway. I
just wrote into the wrong list, sorry. I guess there is a discussion
list that I should have written to instead, but let's ju drop the
whole thing right now.


Kind regards

Johnny Rosenberg
ジョニー・*ーゼンバーグ

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