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Old 09-05-2012, 10:47 AM
David Fletcher
 
Default Silly question relating to graphics cards?

Maybe, maybe not, but I'm not afraid to ask!

Sort of related to my troubles with LibreOffice.

Why is it that the only PCI-E graphics cards available seem to be either
Nvidia or ATI based?

When I run jockey-gtk on this desktop with the nvidia card, sure enough
it lists proprietary drivers.

When I run it on my lovely little Toshiba NB520 it's blank - "no
proprietary drivers installed" and everything works beautifully - even
the SD card reader slot.

Now for the potentially silly question - I know that the graphics in the
NB520 is Intel, so why isn't there an Intel based PCI-E graphics card
for putting into desktop computers?

Dave



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Old 09-05-2012, 11:39 AM
Liam Proven
 
Default Silly question relating to graphics cards?

On 5 September 2012 11:47, David Fletcher <dave@thefletchers.net> wrote:
> Maybe, maybe not, but I'm not afraid to ask!
>
> Sort of related to my troubles with LibreOffice.
>
> Why is it that the only PCI-E graphics cards available seem to be either
> Nvidia or ATI based?
>
> When I run jockey-gtk on this desktop with the nvidia card, sure enough
> it lists proprietary drivers.
>
> When I run it on my lovely little Toshiba NB520 it's blank - "no
> proprietary drivers installed" and everything works beautifully - even
> the SD card reader slot.
>
> Now for the potentially silly question - I know that the graphics in the
> NB520 is Intel, so why isn't there an Intel based PCI-E graphics card
> for putting into desktop computers?

They do exist but they are rare.

The reasons are 2 fold & quite simple:

[a] In recent years, Intel GPUs are built into the CPU itself and
before that into the motherboard chipset; they are not discrete
components.

[b] Intel GPUs are so poor in performance nobody would buy one as an
upgrade. :¬)

But they used to exist.

There are or were also graphics cards from many other vendors -
Matrox, 3DFX, S3, SIS, Hercules, Via and dozens of others. However all
were poor compared to the high-end 3D GPUs that came out of ATI and
nVidia. In the end, by the PCI-E era, everyone else gave up.


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Old 09-05-2012, 12:58 PM
Felix Miata
 
Default Silly question relating to graphics cards?

On 2012/09/05 12:39 (GMT+0100) Liam Proven composed:


David Fletcher wrote:



why isn't there an Intel based PCI-E graphics card
for putting into desktop computers?



They do exist but they are rare.



The reasons are 2 fold& quite simple:

[a] In recent years, Intel GPUs are built into the CPU itself and
before that into the motherboard chipset; they are not discrete
components.



[b] Intel GPUs are so poor in performance nobody would buy one as an
upgrade. :)



But they used to exist.



There are or were also graphics cards from many other vendors -
Matrox, 3DFX, S3, SIS, Hercules, Via and dozens of others. However all
were poor compared to the high-end 3D GPUs that came out of ATI and
nVidia. In the end, by the PCI-E era, everyone else gave up.


Doesn't look like it to me:
http://tinyurl.com/bq8yymk
http://tinyurl.com/cvhexey
http://tinyurl.com/ckfsg2s
etc.

Since I never do anything that is "3D", I've yet to observe any advantage to
chips offering "3D". To be sure, I have been disappointed to find Intel video
unable with single core P4 CPUs up to 3.4GHGZ to play HD video with e.g. VLC
and SMPlayer that the FOSS drivers and ATI & NVidia chips can.

--
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words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/

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Old 09-05-2012, 01:13 PM
Liam Proven
 
Default Silly question relating to graphics cards?

On 5 September 2012 13:58, Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On 2012/09/05 12:39 (GMT+0100) Liam Proven composed:
>
>
>> David Fletcher wrote:
>
>
>>> why isn't there an Intel based PCI-E graphics card
>>> for putting into desktop computers?
>
>
>> They do exist but they are rare.
>
>
>> The reasons are 2 fold& quite simple:
>>
>>
>> [a] In recent years, Intel GPUs are built into the CPU itself and
>> before that into the motherboard chipset; they are not discrete
>> components.
>
>
>> [b] Intel GPUs are so poor in performance nobody would buy one as an
>> upgrade. :¬)
>
>
>> But they used to exist.
>
>
>> There are or were also graphics cards from many other vendors -
>> Matrox, 3DFX, S3, SIS, Hercules, Via and dozens of others. However all
>> were poor compared to the high-end 3D GPUs that came out of ATI and
>> nVidia. In the end, by the PCI-E era, everyone else gave up.
>
>
> Doesn't look like it to me:
> http://tinyurl.com/bq8yymk
> http://tinyurl.com/cvhexey
> http://tinyurl.com/ckfsg2s
> etc.

So when I said:
>
>> They do exist but they are rare.

... What part of that was unclear?

Secondly, you /really/ don't want to pay $200+ for one of those. They
are aimed exclusively at specialist applications, such as video walls,
many-way multihead machines and so on these days.

> Since I never do anything that is "3D", I've yet to observe any advantage to
> chips offering "3D". To be sure, I have been disappointed to find Intel
> video unable with single core P4 CPUs up to 3.4GHGZ to play HD video with
> e.g. VLC and SMPlayer that the FOSS drivers and ATI & NVidia chips can.

The 3D accelerators don't *just* do 3D. They also do hardware video
decode and so on.

This is what Moore's Law /really/ means: not speed, but more
transistors per unit price. The companys have to "spend" the
transistor budget on something; graphics chip makers use the
transistors for hardware-assisted anything-they-can-think-of to try to
justify the prices.

This is why many notebooks now offer both a low-power & high-power
GPU. For most purposes, in ordinary use, you don't need a big GPU -
few people/apps actually require what it does.

Secondly, the P4 was a really poor chip with rotten performance. HD is
quite demanding - that's a lot of bandwidth.


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Old 09-05-2012, 01:30 PM
Felix Miata
 
Default Silly question relating to graphics cards?

On 2012/09/05 14:13 (GMT+0100) Liam Proven composed:


Felix Miata wrote:



So when I said:



They do exist but they are rare.



... What part of that was unclear?


Your subsequent, closing clause:


by the PCI-E era, everyone else gave up.

^^^^^^^^
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/

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Old 09-05-2012, 02:21 PM
"compdoc"
 
Default Silly question relating to graphics cards?

> The 3D accelerators don't *just* do 3D. They also do hardware video decode
and so on.

I've been asking on IRC but haven't gotten answers, so maybe you can tell me
- does a server need more than a PCI video card?

Does a server use the video card to accelerate rdp or vnc sessions on the
host, or in VM guests running on the host?




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Old 09-06-2012, 11:54 AM
Liam Proven
 
Default Silly question relating to graphics cards?

On 5 September 2012 15:21, compdoc <compdoc@hotrodpc.com> wrote:
>> The 3D accelerators don't *just* do 3D. They also do hardware video decode
> and so on.
>
> I've been asking on IRC but haven't gotten answers, so maybe you can tell me
> - does a server need more than a PCI video card?
>
> Does a server use the video card to accelerate rdp or vnc sessions on the
> host, or in VM guests running on the host?

Depends on what the server does, but for most purposes, no; most
servers have onboard video now anyway so do not even need a PCI card.

There are some types of computation that can be accelerated by what is
called general-purpose graphics-processing unit code (GPGPU), but
actually, it's fairly rare for ordinary code. It is good, for example,
for certain specific types of mathematical modelling, which is why the
Folding@home client uses it and some other distributed-computing
projects too.

But code has to be specially written & compiled with a special
compiler for GPGPU applications; you can't just say "run this ssh
encryption engine on the GPU rather than the CPU".

So, no, generally, servers don't need a fancy GPU.

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Old 09-06-2012, 11:55 AM
Liam Proven
 
Default Silly question relating to graphics cards?

On 5 September 2012 14:30, Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On 2012/09/05 14:13 (GMT+0100) Liam Proven composed:
>
>
>> Felix Miata wrote:
>
>
>> So when I said:
>
>
>>>> They do exist but they are rare.
>
>
>> ... What part of that was unclear?
>
>
> Your subsequent, closing clause:
>
>
>>> by the PCI-E era, everyone else gave up.
>
> ^^^^^^^^

I can only quote Ralph Waldo Emerson:

“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by
little statesmen and philosophers and divines.”

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