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Old 07-20-2012, 07:36 PM
"Daevid Vincent"
 
Default MATE Desktop and a little thought...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ubuntu-users-bounces@lists.ubuntu.com [mailto:ubuntu-users-
> bounces@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Juan R. de Silva
> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 12:02 PM
> To: ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
> Subject: Re: MATE Desktop
>
> On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 19:24:01 +0100, Graham Todd wrote:
>
> > Are there any plans to offer an option for the MATE desktop at the
> > system install in future versions of Ubuntu?
> >
> > Being very like the Gnome 2 Desktop, MATE offers people who cannot get
> > on with the Unity shell and people who just would like to try the MATE
> > desktop the option to do so, without messing about with the official
> > GNOME 3 Desktop.
>
> Are you joking? Are you asking if Canonical is going to shoot in its own
> foot? :-)

It could be argued that Canonical already DID shoot its own foot with this
Unity debacle. ;-)

That has been a thorn since it's introduction and what I attribute to the
mass exodus away from Ubuntu -- which WAS the dominant distro (even
trouncing on RedHat/Fedora long ago to take the crown).

http://distrowatch.com/

Rank Distribution H.P.D*
1 Mint 3859<
2 Ubuntu 2201=
3 Mageia 1774>
4 Fedora 1697<
5 Debian 1361<
6 openSUSE 1349=
7 Arch 1154>
8 CentOS 988>
9 Puppy 853=
10 PCLinuxOS 784>

Mint seems to have a significant lead over Ubuntu and includes MATE
http://www.linuxmint.com/download.php

I've not used Mint, but hear great things. Also isn't it based upon Ubuntu,
so wouldn't it follow that the MATE packages should work on an Ubuntu system
too?


OT: I find these types of phenomena very interesting. I mean, how some
company/product/service/even distro can be so massive and seem that they
will never falter and yet somehow manage to royally fsck something up so
badly that they collapse. Gentoo, SUSE, and Solaris, come to mind on a
distro scale. On larger scales, Altavista was huge at one time, now where
are they? Yahoo was the king of search and absolutely crushed by Google
search. Digg was THE news site and sold for millions and now it was just
sold off for a pathetic $500k. Friendster was the hot new social network
that stole the title from Six Degrees (yeah, remember that?) and then
Myspace came along and drank their milkshake. Now they too are just a sad
sad shell of what it was, and Facebook owns that domain by a landslide.
Google+ will ultimately fail. I'm not saying G+ is good or bad, I'm just
stating a fact. It will fail, and that in itself is interesting as it's one
of the first times that something with such potential to take the top spot
is so doomed. Massive amounts of money and smarts, polish and integration
with so much googleness, and yet it just won't take hold. UNLESS Facebook
REALLY screws the pooch. It seems FB gets away with a LOT of sketchy stuff
the user's hate, but yet they are really the monopoly and so they (for now)
can do what they want. But mark my words, there will be another contender to
come out of nowhere. Some small startup will swoop in and be the hot new
social network and we'll be saying, "remember facebook and google+"?
Anyways, end of my stream of thought...


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Old 07-20-2012, 11:51 PM
Ryan Gauger
 
Default MATE Desktop and a little thought...

On Jul 20, 2012, at 2:36 PM, "Daevid Vincent" <daevid@daevid.com> wrote:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ubuntu-users-bounces@lists.ubuntu.com [mailto:ubuntu-users-
>> bounces@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Juan R. de Silva
>> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 12:02 PM
>> To: ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
>> Subject: Re: MATE Desktop
>>
>> On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 19:24:01 +0100, Graham Todd wrote:
>>
>>> Are there any plans to offer an option for the MATE desktop at the
>>> system install in future versions of Ubuntu?
>>>
>>> Being very like the Gnome 2 Desktop, MATE offers people who cannot get
>>> on with the Unity shell and people who just would like to try the MATE
>>> desktop the option to do so, without messing about with the official
>>> GNOME 3 Desktop.
>>
>> Are you joking? Are you asking if Canonical is going to shoot in its own
>> foot? :-)
>
> It could be argued that Canonical already DID shoot its own foot with this
> Unity debacle. ;-)
>
> That has been a thorn since it's introduction and what I attribute to the
> mass exodus away from Ubuntu -- which WAS the dominant distro (even
> trouncing on RedHat/Fedora long ago to take the crown).
>
> http://distrowatch.com/
>
> Rank Distribution H.P.D*
> 1 Mint 3859<
> 2 Ubuntu 2201=
> 3 Mageia 1774>
> 4 Fedora 1697<
> 5 Debian 1361<
> 6 openSUSE 1349=
> 7 Arch 1154>
> 8 CentOS 988>
> 9 Puppy 853=
> 10 PCLinuxOS 784>
>
> Mint seems to have a significant lead over Ubuntu and includes MATE
> http://www.linuxmint.com/download.php
>
> I've not used Mint, but hear great things. Also isn't it based upon Ubuntu,
> so wouldn't it follow that the MATE packages should work on an Ubuntu system
> too?
>
>
> OT: I find these types of phenomena very interesting. I mean, how some
> company/product/service/even distro can be so massive and seem that they
> will never falter and yet somehow manage to royally fsck something up so
> badly that they collapse. Gentoo, SUSE, and Solaris, come to mind on a
> distro scale. On larger scales, Altavista was huge at one time, now where
> are they? Yahoo was the king of search and absolutely crushed by Google
> search. Digg was THE news site and sold for millions and now it was just
> sold off for a pathetic $500k. Friendster was the hot new social network
> that stole the title from Six Degrees (yeah, remember that?) and then
> Myspace came along and drank their milkshake. Now they too are just a sad
> sad shell of what it was, and Facebook owns that domain by a landslide.
> Google+ will ultimately fail. I'm not saying G+ is good or bad, I'm just
> stating a fact. It will fail, and that in itself is interesting as it's one
> of the first times that something with such potential to take the top spot
> is so doomed. Massive amounts of money and smarts, polish and integration
> with so much googleness, and yet it just won't take hold. UNLESS Facebook
> REALLY screws the pooch. It seems FB gets away with a LOT of sketchy stuff
> the user's hate, but yet they are really the monopoly and so they (for now)
> can do what they want. But mark my words, there will be another contender to
> come out of nowhere. Some small startup will swoop in and be the hot new
> social network and we'll be saying, "remember facebook and google+"?
> Anyways, end of my stream of thought...
>
>
> --
> ubuntu-users mailing list
> ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
Linux Mint is not the most-widely used Linux distro. Ubuntu still is. That list is only showing how many hits that page got for each distro, not how much that distro is being used.

---Ryan
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Old 07-21-2012, 02:18 PM
Liam Proven
 
Default MATE Desktop and a little thought...

On 20 July 2012 20:36, Daevid Vincent <daevid@daevid.com> wrote:
>
> It could be argued that Canonical already DID shoot its own foot with this
> Unity debacle. ;-)

Yes it could, but long term, I suspect Unity will prove to be a win.

> That has been a thorn since it's introduction and what I attribute to the
> mass exodus away from Ubuntu -- which WAS the dominant distro (even
> trouncing on RedHat/Fedora long ago to take the crown).

Do we *know* this or merely suspect it?

I suspect that the people complaining about Unity are outnumbered by a
larger group who are getting on fine & don't say anything.

>
> http://distrowatch.com/
>
> Rank Distribution H.P.D*
> 1 Mint 3859<
> 2 Ubuntu 2201=
> 3 Mageia 1774>
> 4 Fedora 1697<
> 5 Debian 1361<
> 6 openSUSE 1349=
> 7 Arch 1154>
> 8 CentOS 988>
> 9 Puppy 853=
> 10 PCLinuxOS 784>
>
> Mint seems to have a significant lead over Ubuntu and includes MATE
> http://www.linuxmint.com/download.php

That is just page views, not user numbers. It's interesting &
suggestive but proves*nothing.

> I've not used Mint, but hear great things.

It's pretty good.

It is more Windows-like in appearance & has bundled media codecs.

Snags:
* no supported release-to-release upgrades
* update program too conservative & only flags some updates
* some 3rd party apps & drivers do not install smoothly because they
don't directly support Mint

#3 can be 'fixed' by stopping distro detection, where available, &
telling the installer it's the corresponding version of Ubuntu.

> Also isn't it based upon Ubuntu,

Yes

> so wouldn't it follow that the MATE packages should work on an Ubuntu system
> too?

(?) How does that follow?

Anyway, there /are/ Maté packages for Ubuntu already.


> OT: I find these types of phenomena very interesting. I mean, how some
> company/product/service/even distro can be so massive and seem that they
> will never falter and yet somehow manage to royally fsck something up so
> badly that they collapse.

Ubuntu has not collapsed, though.


> Gentoo, SUSE, and Solaris, come to mind on a
> distro scale.

All still alive. & Solaris is not a distro & not a FOSS product.

> On larger scales, Altavista was huge at one time, now where
> are they?

Google PageRank was & is a killer advatange.

> Yahoo was the king of search

Only when the Web was very small. Human-curated indices could never
keep up after '96 or so.

> and absolutely crushed by Google
> search. Digg was THE news site and sold for millions and now it was just
> sold off for a pathetic $500k.

Reddit is better.

Also, if you think $500K is "pathetic", can I borrow half a million
bucks, please?

> Friendster was the hot new social network
> that stole the title from Six Degrees (yeah, remember that?) and then
> Myspace came along and drank their milkshake. Now they too are just a sad
> sad shell of what it was, and Facebook owns that domain by a landslide.

FB did it better.

It will die too in time.

> Google+ will ultimately fail. I'm not saying G+ is good or bad, I'm just
> stating a fact.

Not a fact; a supposition. You don't *know* the future & nor do I.

It is very likely, yes, but we don't know. It's not a fact.



--
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Email: lproven@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
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Old 07-21-2012, 02:47 PM
R Kimber
 
Default MATE Desktop and a little thought...

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 15:18:55 +0100
Liam Proven wrote:

> > I've not used Mint, but hear great things.
>
> It's pretty good.
>
> It is more Windows-like in appearance & has bundled media codecs.

Really? It didn't look much like Windows to me.

- Richard.
--
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Political Science Resources
http://www.PoliticsResources.net/

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Old 07-21-2012, 02:54 PM
Liam Proven
 
Default MATE Desktop and a little thought...

On 21 July 2012 15:47, R Kimber <richardkimber@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 15:18:55 +0100
> Liam Proven wrote:
>
>> > I've not used Mint, but hear great things.
>>
>> It's pretty good.
>>
>> It is more Windows-like in appearance & has bundled media codecs.
>
> Really? It didn't look much like Windows to me.

By default:

* Single taskbar @ bottom of screen
* single launch menu @ bottom left
* status area bottom right
* panel arranged like taskbar: button for menu, then quick-launch
icons, then task switcher, then status icons, then "tray"

*Much* more Windows-like than GNOME 2's two separate panels.

--
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Email: lproven@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884

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Old 07-21-2012, 06:51 PM
Ryan Gauger
 
Default MATE Desktop and a little thought...

On Jul 21, 2012, at 9:47 AM, R Kimber <richardkimber@btinternet.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 15:18:55 +0100
> Liam Proven wrote:
>
>>> I've not used Mint, but hear great things.
>>
>> It's pretty good.
>>
>> It is more Windows-like in appearance & has bundled media codecs.
>
> Really? It didn't look much like Windows to me.
>
> - Richard.
> --
> Richard Kimber
> Political Science Resources
> http://www.PoliticsResources.net/
>
> --
> ubuntu-users mailing list
> ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
It is more Windows-like than Ubuntu is what Liam meant, not necessarily that Mint looks a lot like Windows.

---Ryan
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Old 07-21-2012, 10:30 PM
Ric Moore
 
Default MATE Desktop and a little thought...

On 07/20/2012 03:36 PM, Daevid Vincent wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: ubuntu-users-bounces@lists.ubuntu.com [mailto:ubuntu-users-
bounces@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Juan R. de Silva
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 12:02 PM
To: ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Subject: Re: MATE Desktop

On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 19:24:01 +0100, Graham Todd wrote:


Are there any plans to offer an option for the MATE desktop at the
system install in future versions of Ubuntu?

Being very like the Gnome 2 Desktop, MATE offers people who cannot get
on with the Unity shell and people who just would like to try the MATE
desktop the option to do so, without messing about with the official
GNOME 3 Desktop.


Are you joking? Are you asking if Canonical is going to shoot in its own
foot? :-)


It could be argued that Canonical already DID shoot its own foot with this
Unity debacle. ;-)

That has been a thorn since it's introduction and what I attribute to the
mass exodus away from Ubuntu -- which WAS the dominant distro (even
trouncing on RedHat/Fedora long ago to take the crown).

http://distrowatch.com/

Rank Distribution H.P.D*
1 Mint 3859<
2 Ubuntu 2201=
3 Mageia 1774>
4 Fedora 1697<
5 Debian 1361<
6 openSUSE 1349=
7 Arch 1154>
8 CentOS 988>
9 Puppy 853=
10 PCLinuxOS 784>

Mint seems to have a significant lead over Ubuntu and includes MATE
http://www.linuxmint.com/download.php


Maybe Mint just does a better job at announcing the users that
install/use Mint to the distrowatch counter. I tried it, switched back
and wonder if I'm still counted when I switched. Since Mint relies
extensively on Ubuntu, why is it counted separately? They all ought to
be first counted together as Debian, and then counted again under the
various Ubuntu flavors, like Ubuntu, Xubuntu, Kubuntu, Mint, etc. to see
which among them is the favorite. But, Debian needs to be given credit
where credit is due. Ric



--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html



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Old 07-22-2012, 06:31 AM
Mika Suomalainen
 
Default MATE Desktop and a little thought...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 21.07.2012 17:47, R Kimber wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 15:18:55 +0100 Liam Proven wrote:
>
>>>>> I've not used Mint, but hear great things.
>>>
>>> It's pretty good.
>>>
>>> It is more Windows-like in appearance & has bundled media
>>> codecs.
> Really? It didn't look much like Windows to me.

That probably depends on desktop environment. I think that Liam has
used KDE edition, not MATE edition.

- --
Mika Suomalainen

NOTICE! I am on mobile broadband with very limited time, so I cannot
read emails very much.
The best time to contact me is probably weekends when I have better
connectivity with good luck.
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Old 07-22-2012, 06:51 AM
Johnny Rosenberg
 
Default MATE Desktop and a little thought...

2012/7/21 Liam Proven <lproven@gmail.com>:
> On 20 July 2012 20:36, Daevid Vincent <daevid@daevid.com> wrote:
>>
>> It could be argued that Canonical already DID shoot its own foot with this
>> Unity debacle. ;-)
>
> Yes it could, but long term, I suspect Unity will prove to be a win.
>
>> That has been a thorn since it's introduction and what I attribute to the
>> mass exodus away from Ubuntu -- which WAS the dominant distro (even
>> trouncing on RedHat/Fedora long ago to take the crown).
>
> Do we *know* this or merely suspect it?
>
> I suspect that the people complaining about Unity are outnumbered by a
> larger group who are getting on fine & don't say anything.
>
>>
>> http://distrowatch.com/
>>
>> Rank Distribution H.P.D*
>> 1 Mint 3859<
>> 2 Ubuntu 2201=
>> 3 Mageia 1774>
>> 4 Fedora 1697<
>> 5 Debian 1361<
>> 6 openSUSE 1349=
>> 7 Arch 1154>
>> 8 CentOS 988>
>> 9 Puppy 853=
>> 10 PCLinuxOS 784>
>>
>> Mint seems to have a significant lead over Ubuntu and includes MATE
>> http://www.linuxmint.com/download.php
>
> That is just page views, not user numbers. It's interesting &
> suggestive but proves nothing.
>
>> I've not used Mint, but hear great things.
>
> It's pretty good.
>
> It is more Windows-like in appearance

There could be the answer to the numbers above. People, especially
Ubuntu users who are not satisfied with Unity, hear about Mint and go
to their web page. Maybe they even install it. Then they see that it
looks a bit like Windows and think ”Oh no!”, uninstall it and go back
to Ubuntu…

I remember back in 2007, when I switched from Windows to Ubuntu. I had
many reasons to do so. I had complained loudly about Windows in maybe
a decade and some people told me that if I'm not satisfied, why don't
you try something else? I have been thinking of Linux of some sort for
a couple of years, since I worked a bit with Unix at school (like a
university) in the early 1990's, and I really missed it when working
with Windows. Everything seemed to complicated stupid in Windows, I
thought. However, the step between thinking and doing can sometimes be
very huge, so it took me a couple of years before I heard of Ubuntu
6.06, a distribution that should be a good start for a Linux beginner.
Still I didn't do anything (except burned an Ubuntu 6.06 CD, which I
never used), until summer 2007, when I first installed Ubuntu 7.04. I
consulted a lot of pages online before I decided for the Gnome
version. I wanted a full feature desktop and one of the reasons that I
picked Gnome was that KDE looked too much like Windows, and I really
didn't want that. And I still don't. Maybe there are more people like
me out there, somewhere…


Kind regards

Johnny Rosenberg
ジョニー・*ーゼンバーグ

> & has bundled media codecs.
>
> Snags:
> * no supported release-to-release upgrades
> * update program too conservative & only flags some updates
> * some 3rd party apps & drivers do not install smoothly because they
> don't directly support Mint
>
> #3 can be 'fixed' by stopping distro detection, where available, &
> telling the installer it's the corresponding version of Ubuntu.
>
>> Also isn't it based upon Ubuntu,
>
> Yes
>
>> so wouldn't it follow that the MATE packages should work on an Ubuntu system
>> too?
>
> (?) How does that follow?
>
> Anyway, there /are/ Maté packages for Ubuntu already.
>
>
>> OT: I find these types of phenomena very interesting. I mean, how some
>> company/product/service/even distro can be so massive and seem that they
>> will never falter and yet somehow manage to royally fsck something up so
>> badly that they collapse.
>
> Ubuntu has not collapsed, though.
>
>
>> Gentoo, SUSE, and Solaris, come to mind on a
>> distro scale.
>
> All still alive. & Solaris is not a distro & not a FOSS product.
>
>> On larger scales, Altavista was huge at one time, now where
>> are they?
>
> Google PageRank was & is a killer advatange.
>
>> Yahoo was the king of search
>
> Only when the Web was very small. Human-curated indices could never
> keep up after '96 or so.
>
>> and absolutely crushed by Google
>> search. Digg was THE news site and sold for millions and now it was just
>> sold off for a pathetic $500k.
>
> Reddit is better.
>
> Also, if you think $500K is "pathetic", can I borrow half a million
> bucks, please?
>
>> Friendster was the hot new social network
>> that stole the title from Six Degrees (yeah, remember that?) and then
>> Myspace came along and drank their milkshake. Now they too are just a sad
>> sad shell of what it was, and Facebook owns that domain by a landslide.
>
> FB did it better.
>
> It will die too in time.
>
>> Google+ will ultimately fail. I'm not saying G+ is good or bad, I'm just
>> stating a fact.
>
> Not a fact; a supposition. You don't *know* the future & nor do I.
>
> It is very likely, yes, but we don't know. It's not a fact.
>
>
>
> --
> Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
> Email: lproven@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
> MSN: lproven@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
> Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884
>
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> ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users

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Old 07-22-2012, 01:27 PM
Liam Proven
 
Default MATE Desktop and a little thought...

On 22 July 2012 07:31, Mika Suomalainen <mika.henrik.mainio@hotmail.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> On 21.07.2012 17:47, R Kimber wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 15:18:55 +0100 Liam Proven wrote:
>>
>>>>>> I've not used Mint, but hear great things.
>>>>
>>>> It's pretty good.
>>>>
>>>> It is more Windows-like in appearance & has bundled media
>>>> codecs.
>> Really? It didn't look much like Windows to me.
>
> That probably depends on desktop environment. I think that Liam has
> used KDE edition, not MATE edition.

What on *Earth* gives you that impression?

You are entirely wrong.

I was directly speaking of the GNOME 2 versions, but the same comments
are largely true of the current default flavour, which is GNOME 3 with
Cinnamon.

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Email: lproven@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
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Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884

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