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Old 01-30-2012, 07:32 PM
Ric Moore
 
Default Ubuntu Should Be Forked!

On 01/30/2012 04:09 AM, Swapnil Bhartiya wrote:

http://www.muktware.com/articles/3252/ubuntu-should-be-forked

I have been a long time Ubuntu user, been using it since 2006. I loved
it and have been installing it on user's PC until version 11.04 came out
with Unity. Before you get a wrong impression let me make it clear that
I love to try new things as long as they don't come in between me and my
work.

I started using Unity since its alpha days and am currently running
Ubuntu 12.04 with HUD and KDE 4.8. The reason is simple -- I am curious
and love trying new things. I am also running openSUSE with Gnome 3 to
stay updated with the latest development.

I am not certain if I will continue to use Ubuntu after 12.04 if they
force HUD on me. Mark Shuttleworth has given clear indication that HUD
will ultimately replace the menus. I don't know what he meant by that.
When he introduced Unity has specifically said that this doesn't make
much sense for bigger screens and now we are all stuck with Unity and
Global Menus. We have seem mass exodus from Ubuntu to Linux Mint. Most
of my associates have moved to Linux Mint and DistroWatch is an
indicator of that migration.


Jeeeez... just use KDE or XFCE or Mint then. Ubuntu supports those as
well, through their noble efforts to make the Ubuntu platform open as
possible. If you don't want HUD, don't use it. It's like complaining
about limping home with a flat tire when you have a spare in the trunk.
IYou cannot claim that Mark Shuttleworth has restricted your choices in
any way, as that is not true.


And, if MicroSoft, or some other patent squatter, decides to sue over
drop down menus, we'll be in the unmistakable clear, and
Mint/KDE/XFCE/LXDE and the rest, including SUSE and Red Hat will be
scrambling like mad, at the last minute, to adopt a HUD scheme. Mark
didn't make his dough by being stupid. I think he's staying ahead of the
game and just might know a thing or two neither you nor I nor anyone
else does. There is that, as his decisions are above our pay grade.


Myself, I plan on using a USB headset and bark voice commands at my HUD
desktop. That will be a fun toy, for sure. For now, I use XFCE (Xubuntu)
and I'm happier than a little clam with it.


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Old 01-30-2012, 08:37 PM
Johnny Rosenberg
 
Default Ubuntu Should Be Forked!

2012/1/30 Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com>:
> On 01/30/2012 04:09 AM, Swapnil Bhartiya wrote:
>>
>> http://www.muktware.com/articles/3252/ubuntu-should-be-forked
>>
>> I have been a long time Ubuntu user, been using it since 2006. I loved
>> it and have been installing it on user's PC until version 11.04 came out
>> with Unity. Before you get a wrong impression let me make it clear that
>> I love to try new things as long as they don't come in between me and my
>> work.
>>
>> I started using Unity since its alpha days and am currently running
>> Ubuntu 12.04 with HUD and KDE 4.8. The reason is simple -- I am curious
>> and love trying new things. I am also running openSUSE with Gnome 3 to
>> stay updated with the latest development.
>>
>> I am not certain if I will continue to use Ubuntu after 12.04 if they
>> force HUD on me. Mark Shuttleworth has given clear indication that HUD
>> will ultimately replace the menus. I don't know what he meant by that.
>> When he introduced Unity has specifically said that this doesn't make
>> much sense for bigger screens and now we are all stuck with Unity and
>> Global Menus. We have seem mass exodus from Ubuntu to Linux Mint. Most
>> of my associates have moved to Linux Mint and DistroWatch is an
>> indicator of that migration.
>
>
> Jeeeez... just use KDE or XFCE or Mint then. Ubuntu supports those as well,
> through their noble efforts to make the Ubuntu platform open as possible. If
> you don't want HUD, don't use it. It's like complaining about limping home
> with a flat tire when you have a spare in the trunk. IYou cannot claim that
> Mark Shuttleworth has restricted your choices in any way, as that is not
> true.
>
> And, if MicroSoft, or some other patent squatter, decides to sue over drop
> down menus, we'll be in the unmistakable clear, and Mint/KDE/XFCE/LXDE and
> the rest, including SUSE and Red Hat will be scrambling like mad, at the
> last minute, to adopt a HUD scheme. Mark didn't make his dough by being
> stupid. I think he's staying ahead of the game and just might know a thing
> or two neither you nor I nor anyone else does. There is that, as his
> decisions are above our pay grade.
>
> Myself, I plan on using a USB headset and bark voice commands at my HUD
> desktop. That will be a fun toy, for sure. For now, I use XFCE (Xubuntu) and
> I'm happier than a little clam with it.

Just of curiosity, sorry for being somewhat off topic, can you run
Compiz-Fusion and Emerald in XFCE (or LXDE)?


Kind regards

Johnny Rosenberg
ジョニー・*ーゼンバーグ

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Old 01-30-2012, 09:39 PM
Pastor JW
 
Default Ubuntu Should Be Forked!

On Monday, January 30, 2012 1:09:50 am Swapnil Bhartiya wrote:

> This way while Ubuntu will retain (and bring back) old/loyal users and
> also attract new users who want ease of use and a familiar interface, it
> will also satisfy the enthusiasts.
>
> What do you say?

I don't see any reason to, of course, since I am in a work environment I don't
use Gnome (which I think you are actually talking about rather than Ubuntu)
anyway. On my Ubuntu, I use KDE.

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Old 01-30-2012, 09:42 PM
"Cybe R. Wizard"
 
Default Ubuntu Should Be Forked!

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 22:37:54 +0100
Johnny Rosenberg <gurus.knugum@gmail.com> wrote:

> Just of curiosity, sorry for being somewhat off topic, can you run
> Compiz-Fusion and Emerald in XFCE (or LXDE)?

Absolutely. I do it daily.

Cybe R. Wizard
--
Strength through Unity.
Unity through faith.
Adam Sutler

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Old 01-30-2012, 10:11 PM
Ric Moore
 
Default Ubuntu Should Be Forked!

On 01/30/2012 04:37 PM, Johnny Rosenberg wrote:


Just of curiosity, sorry for being somewhat off topic, can you run
Compiz-Fusion and Emerald in XFCE (or LXDE)?


I dunno about LXDE, as running Compiz would sorta negate it's purpose to
be lightweight for old iron, Compiz should work with XFCE.


I like compiz and think it's nifty and slick. I'll run it for awhile,
then it'll make me crazy, then I turn it off. I hope it becomes more
refined, kinda like pulse did, going through it's birthing pains. Ric




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Old 01-31-2012, 01:20 AM
Ric Moore
 
Default Ubuntu Should Be Forked!

On 01/30/2012 05:42 PM, Cybe R. Wizard wrote:

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 22:37:54 +0100
Johnny Rosenberg<gurus.knugum@gmail.com> wrote:


Just of curiosity, sorry for being somewhat off topic, can you run
Compiz-Fusion and Emerald in XFCE (or LXDE)?


Absolutely. I do it daily.

Cybe R. Wizard


Ah! ...coming from The Wiz, that's all she wrote! Ric


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Old 01-31-2012, 03:00 AM
Olivier Pavilla
 
Default Ubuntu Should Be Forked!

Le 30/01/2012 10:09, Swapnil Bhartiya a crit :
> http://www.muktware.com/articles/3252/ubuntu-should-be-forked
>
[cut]
>
> Read full article here
> http://www.muktware.com/articles/3252/ubuntu-should-be-forked
>
> Swapnil Bhartiya
>

On my Ubuntu I use XFCE. I just hope Ubuntu will never put unity on XFCE.


--
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http://www.linux-squad.com
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Old 01-31-2012, 12:31 PM
Liam Proven
 
Default Ubuntu Should Be Forked!

On 30 January 2012 20:32, Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 01/30/2012 04:09 AM, Swapnil Bhartiya wrote:
>>
>> http://www.muktware.com/articles/3252/ubuntu-should-be-forked
>>
>> I have been a long time Ubuntu user, been using it since 2006. I loved
>> it and have been installing it on user's PC until version 11.04 came out
>> with Unity. Before you get a wrong impression let me make it clear that
>> I love to try new things as long as they don't come in between me and my
>> work.
>>
>> I started using Unity since its alpha days and am currently running
>> Ubuntu 12.04 with HUD and KDE 4.8. The reason is simple -- I am curious
>> and love trying new things. I am also running openSUSE with Gnome 3 to
>> stay updated with the latest development.
>>
>> I am not certain if I will continue to use Ubuntu after 12.04 if they
>> force HUD on me. Mark Shuttleworth has given clear indication that HUD
>> will ultimately replace the menus. I don't know what he meant by that.
>> When he introduced Unity has specifically said that this doesn't make
>> much sense for bigger screens and now we are all stuck with Unity and
>> Global Menus. We have seem mass exodus from Ubuntu to Linux Mint. Most
>> of my associates have moved to Linux Mint and DistroWatch is an
>> indicator of that migration.
>
>
> Jeeeez... just use KDE or XFCE or Mint then. Ubuntu supports those as well,
> through their noble efforts to make the Ubuntu platform open as possible. If
> you don't want HUD, don't use it. It's like complaining about limping home
> with a flat tire when you have a spare in the trunk. IYou cannot claim that
> Mark Shuttleworth has restricted your choices in any way, as that is not
> true.

Agreed and well said.

> And, if MicroSoft, or some other patent squatter, decides to sue over drop
> down menus, we'll be in the unmistakable clear, and Mint/KDE/XFCE/LXDE and
> the rest, including SUSE and Red Hat will be scrambling like mad, at the
> last minute, to adopt a HUD scheme

... Or something.

There's a difference between drop-down and pull-down menus. Pull-down
means that you have to point at the menu bar and click the mouse
button; drop-down means that you point at the menu bar and the menus
open by themselves; you need only click to select an option.

Apple invented the fixed top-of-the-screen pull-down menu bar with the
Lisa, I believe. The Mac copied it.

AmigaOS had a version too, but there, you had to right-click to make
the menu bar appear before you could use it. A horrible system, IMHO.

I am not sure who invented the /in-window/ menu bar fixed across the
top of the window - that /might/ have been MICROS~1 but I suspect
there was prior art. What I think /was/ original to MS was the idea of
keyboard control using Alt+a letter, with the active letter undelined
to show you which it was; so, for instance, I open files using Alt-F,
O, which is standard across Windows, KDE & GNOME in pretty much all
apps. I do a wordcount in Word/Writer with Alt-T, W - which is one of
the thousands of such keystrokes that are broken in MS Office
2007/2010.

However, the in-window menu bar and the keystroke access to it were
standardised as part of the IBM Common User Access system in the early
1980s and were also adopted in IBM OS/2 and OSF Motif on many Unix
boxes. (Along with many other Windows features.) I doubt very much
that any patents on it could be enforced now.

If Ubuntu wanted to get away from MS-style in-window menus, me, I'd
have preferred they shift to just context menus, as used in RISC OS
and some early Unix window managers. That was, there is /no/ menu bar,
ever, anyway; you just click one particular mouse button - the middle
button on RISC OS, the right button by convention now on modern PCs -
and the menu tree appears right where you're already pointing.

This also has the added bonus of removing the need to select the right
window and make it active by clicking on it before you can get at that
app's menu tree, which now affects both Unity and Mac OS X.

But it's not very discoverable. People need to know to click. Mind
you, they need to know what to type to use a HUD, so it's poorly
discoverable too. The auto-hiding menu bar isn't great in that respect
but I can see that people would stumble across it quickly.

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Old 01-31-2012, 01:48 PM
Adoris921011
 
Default Ubuntu Should Be Forked!

On Jan 31, 2012, at 9:31 PM, Liam Proven wrote:

> I am not sure who invented the /in-window/ menu bar fixed across the
> top of the window - that /might/ have been MICROS~1 but I suspect
> there was prior art. What I think /was/ original to MS was the idea of
> keyboard control using Alt+a letter, with the active letter undelined
> to show you which it was; so, for instance, I open files using Alt-F,
> O, which is standard across Windows, KDE & GNOME in pretty much all
> apps. I do a wordcount in Word/Writer with Alt-T, W - which is one of
> the thousands of such keystrokes that are broken in MS Office
> 2007/2010.

Apple pioneered lots of things in the early stage of GUI-using including the in-window menu-bar. Lots of experiments had been done at that time including the in-window menubar and tabbed windows as shown in the pic below:

http://folklore.org/projects/Macintosh/images/polaroids/polaroids.14.jpg

And later M$ used (copied?) the idea of in-window menu bar to differentiate itself from Mac OS.

> If Ubuntu wanted to get away from MS-style in-window menus, me, I'd
> have preferred they shift to just context menus, as used in RISC OS
> and some early Unix window managers. That was, there is /no/ menu bar,
> ever, anyway; you just click one particular mouse button - the middle
> button on RISC OS, the right button by convention now on modern PCs -
> and the menu tree appears right where you're already pointing.
>
> This also has the added bonus of removing the need to select the right
> window and make it active by clicking on it before you can get at that
> app's menu tree, which now affects both Unity and Mac OS X.
>
> But it's not very discoverable. People need to know to click. Mind
> you, they need to know what to type to use a HUD, so it's poorly
> discoverable too. The auto-hiding menu bar isn't great in that respect
> but I can see that people would stumble across it quickly.

When 99.9% of the users are used to the menu-bar, it is still OK to relocate or slightly modify it (as done in Unity) but it is surely unwise to completely remove it and replace it with a new concept. Besides, a context menu-only UI could cause pain in the development of third-party apps since menu bars are so widely used on other major platforms and in other distros.
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Old 01-31-2012, 07:05 PM
Ric Moore
 
Default Ubuntu Should Be Forked!

On 01/31/2012 09:48 AM, Adoris921011 wrote:


When 99.9% of the users are used to the menu-bar, it is still OK to
relocate or slightly modify it (as done in Unity) but it is surely
unwise to completely remove it and replace it with a new concept.
Besides, a context menu-only UI could cause pain in the development
of third-party apps since menu bars are so widely used on other major
platforms and in other distros.


I dunno, I am looking forward to having a voice enabled dialog with my
computer. After being married 3 1/2 times, it'll be nice to argue with
silicon-cold logic for a change. And, so far, it doesn't have an
attorney nor a claim on my real estate. Plus, I can always unplug it.
<chuckles> Ric



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