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Old 12-24-2011, 02:22 AM
Craig White
 
Default Newbie query: Ubuntu vs openSUSE

On Fri, 2011-12-23 at 20:47 -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
> On 12/23/2011 05:15 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>
> > So, yes, the gap has narrowed, but still, even today, the Debian
> > family don't have the admin tools that SUSE boasts, and the RPM-based
> > distros don't have the elegant, mature package-management system that
> > the Debian family do.
>
> Caldera had the good sense to just use rpm as Red Hat did, since they
> were a red-haired step child, so to speak. Ole Donnie caught hell, on
> the Caldera list, when Caldera had about their 3rd or 4th release and
> about a week or so later Red Hat came out with a new and improved
> version of RPM that nailed ours. It's not always roses when a distro
> competes with another. Ric
----
that's bs - Red Hat always makes their code available upstream and thus
any Linux can use code from any of their packages including the package
manager itself... the source was always available to everyone.

There are always issues with the timing of releases especially
considering that updated packages should get some amount of testing
before making it into a 'stable' product.

Craig




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Old 12-24-2011, 03:22 AM
Kevin Stabilo
 
Default Newbie query: Ubuntu vs openSUSE

On 12/23/2011 11:02 AM, Ric Moore wrote:
On
12/23/2011 07:48 AM, Rameshwar Kr. Sharma wrote:




Well thanks for the suggestions. I would
read but right now can one


tell me the difference between the two package managers :- Yast
and


Ubuntu's in general terms?





We're getting to the point of beating a dead horse now. What part
of trying it out are you missing out on?? If YOU like it, it's
good. If you don't like it, don't use it. EOL. You asked a
question, you got answers to try. Don't ask more questions while
ignoring the previous answers, or you'll start making people slow
to respond you or worse, add you to their junk filters. Better
yet, use google. But, trolling for "us versus them", is not
considered a good thing, as I pointed out before. We don't do
that. Ric







I returned to quickly.....



Hey Ric,



You should see the circle jerk goin round and round over at the
Fdora list....startin with this one...



http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/users/2011-December/410414.html



I think this guy must be a tech writer that wants everyone to do his
work...I could have see him on the Suse lists too.* Man, I don't
think I would spend any time to answer this guy.* Seems like he just
jumps from list to list askin the same stuff and never does anything
with it....* He be the type of guy you'd like see keep using
Windose.*




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Old 12-24-2011, 03:34 AM
Kevin Stabilo
 
Default Newbie query: Ubuntu vs openSUSE

On 12/23/2011 11:02 AM, Ric Moore wrote:

On 12/23/2011 07:48 AM, Rameshwar Kr. Sharma wrote:


Well thanks for the suggestions. I would read but right now can one
tell me the difference between the two package managers :- Yast and
Ubuntu's in general terms?


We're getting to the point of beating a dead horse now. What part of
trying it out are you missing out on?? If YOU like it, it's good. If
you don't like it, don't use it. EOL. You asked a question, you got
answers to try. Don't ask more questions while ignoring the previous
answers, or you'll start making people slow to respond you or worse,
add you to their junk filters. Better yet, use google. But, trolling
for "us versus them", is not considered a good thing, as I pointed out
before. We don't do that. Ric



I returned to quickly.....and html went out....

Hey Ric,

You should see the circle jerk goin round and round over at the Fdora
list....startin with this one...


http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/users/2011-December/410414.html

I think this guy must be a tech writer that wants everyone to do his
work...I could have see him on the Suse lists too. Man, I don't think I
would spend any time to answer this guy. Seems like he just jumps from
list to list askin the same stuff and never does anything with it....
He be the type of guy you'd like see keep using Windose.


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Old 12-24-2011, 07:13 AM
Ric Moore
 
Default Newbie query: Ubuntu vs openSUSE

On 12/23/2011 10:22 PM, Craig White wrote:

On Fri, 2011-12-23 at 20:47 -0500, Ric Moore wrote:

On 12/23/2011 05:15 PM, Liam Proven wrote:


So, yes, the gap has narrowed, but still, even today, the Debian
family don't have the admin tools that SUSE boasts, and the RPM-based
distros don't have the elegant, mature package-management system that
the Debian family do.


Caldera had the good sense to just use rpm as Red Hat did, since they
were a red-haired step child, so to speak. Ole Donnie caught hell, on
the Caldera list, when Caldera had about their 3rd or 4th release and
about a week or so later Red Hat came out with a new and improved
version of RPM that nailed ours. It's not always roses when a distro
competes with another. Ric

----
that's bs - Red Hat always makes their code available upstream and thus
any Linux can use code from any of their packages including the package
manager itself... the source was always available to everyone.


Of course it is. We just happened to notice that the completely
re-worked and updated version of rpm appeared just a week or so after we
all had just updated our Caldera installs, and our old version of rpm
was not compatible at all with the new version, which was a completely
reworked version. I'm sure that was a coincidence... <cackles>



There are always issues with the timing of releases especially
considering that updated packages should get some amount of testing
before making it into a 'stable' product.


Well sure, if Caldera KNEW that rpm was being completely re-worked then
they would have held off their release. They were never hide-bound to a
release date. They were small enough to do the "right thing". Liam was
probably there at that time. We got blindsided. "All's fair...."
<chuckles> Ric




--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

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Old 12-24-2011, 07:50 AM
Jamie Paul Griffin
 
Default Newbie query: Ubuntu vs openSUSE

On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 05:53:13PM -0700, Craig White wrote:
> comparing distributions, like Gnome vs KDE, like emacs or vi are not
> questions that have definite answers except for the personal judgment
> that one can only make for themselves.
>
> Doing it on multiple lists makes it clear that the OP isn't actually
> interested in the answer, because he has already been told that there is
> no single answer.
>
> Asking the Ubuntu list just two scant days after he disdained Ubuntu on
> the Fedora list made it abundantly obvious that he is just a troll and
> I'm sorry if that seems harsh and unfriendly. If you feel that it is
> worth your time and energy then so be it but don't say that you weren't
> warned.

I do agree with your point entirely. I just feel that being unnecessarily unkind creates a sense of hostility for this list which it shouldn't. This list and many others provide a fabulous service to new users and it's better to point out to people that disregard the etiquette of the list that it's not acceptable rather than publicly flame them. Unfortunately its inevitable that a certain amount of stupidity will show itself but then it's best to educate them.

You will have read that I made it quite to the OP earlier in the thread that he should go and read up on a topic before posting. If he chooses not to try and learn for himself then that's his problem. I have no intention of wasting my time in that case, so I do agree with you there.

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Old 12-24-2011, 08:10 AM
Ric Moore
 
Default Newbie query: Ubuntu vs openSUSE

On 12/24/2011 03:50 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:

On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 05:53:13PM -0700, Craig White wrote:

comparing distributions, like Gnome vs KDE, like emacs or vi are not
questions that have definite answers except for the personal judgment
that one can only make for themselves.

Doing it on multiple lists makes it clear that the OP isn't actually
interested in the answer, because he has already been told that there is
no single answer.

Asking the Ubuntu list just two scant days after he disdained Ubuntu on
the Fedora list made it abundantly obvious that he is just a troll and
I'm sorry if that seems harsh and unfriendly. If you feel that it is
worth your time and energy then so be it but don't say that you weren't
warned.


I do agree with your point entirely. I just feel that being unnecessarily unkind creates a sense of hostility for this list which it shouldn't. This list and many others provide a fabulous service to new users and it's better to point out to people that disregard the etiquette of the list that it's not acceptable rather than publicly flame them. Unfortunately its inevitable that a certain amount of stupidity will show itself but then it's best to educate them.

You will have read that I made it quite to the OP earlier in the thread that he should go and read up on a topic before posting. If he chooses not to try and learn for himself then that's his problem. I have no intention of wasting my time in that case, so I do agree with you there.



This about sums it up....
http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
It's a form of tough love to get someone to ask "better questions". Ric



--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

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Old 12-24-2011, 08:39 AM
Craig White
 
Default Newbie query: Ubuntu vs openSUSE

On Sat, 2011-12-24 at 08:50 +0000, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:

> I do agree with your point entirely. I just feel that being unnecessarily unkind creates a sense of hostility for this list which it shouldn't. This list and many others provide a fabulous service to new users and it's better to point out to people that disregard the etiquette of the list that it's not acceptable rather than publicly flame them. Unfortunately its inevitable that a certain amount of stupidity will show itself but then it's best to educate them.
>
> You will have read that I made it quite to the OP earlier in the thread that he should go and read up on a topic before posting. If he chooses not to try and learn for himself then that's his problem. I have no intention of wasting my time in that case, so I do agree with you there.
----
Perhaps I should make something clear...

Having experienced the identical thread on fedora-list that is
undoubtedly approaching 100 e-mails, I wake up to find a virtually
identical thread started on ubuntu-users. This despite the fact that he
disdained Ubuntu to the fedora-list just days before. This thread
included an excessively pedantic exchange regarding his lack of efforts
to do his own research, using multiple identities and just generally
lacking any purpose other than creating controversy.

W/R/T your reply (and some others) - yes, those were typical of the
initial replies on the Fedora list - do you own research.

W/R/T replies such as the several incredibly wordy, historically
accurate (but worthless), comparatively inaccurate (lacks knowledge of
current versions of alternative distributions) by Liam... that is
precisely why I found his trolling to be unacceptable. He is getting
people to waste their time.

Rather than further the OP's intent to create controversy, I would
suggest that you simply let it drop and let the thread die.

Craig


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Old 12-24-2011, 10:34 AM
"Rameshwar Kr. Sharma"
 
Default Newbie query: Ubuntu vs openSUSE

On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 9:37 PM, Liam Proven <lproven@gmail.com> wrote:

> SUSE is an old distro, dating back 15y or so. It predates home
> broadband. Its original unique selling point was that it came with all
> the software you would ever need, on multiple CDs, then later on many
> CDs + a DVD, then on multiple DVDs.

> It also has good, rich, complete system admin tools, notably YAST.
> YAST stands for Yet Another Setup Tool and was originally the
> installer. Now, YAST2 is also the main point of control for your
> system - adding and removing users, configuring hardware, adding and
> removing software, updating, etc.

> It is much more than just a package management system.

> SUSE was for a long time based on KDE. Later it adopted GNOME too and
> the company bought Ximian, one of the main GNOME software development
> houses. It also supports lots of other distros.

> SUSE is now owned by Novell, which in turn is owned by Attachmate, 2
> big American companies. It has a strong corporate focus with expensive
> corporate versions with support contracts.

> SUSE has signed a pact with *Microsoft which means it can use the
> Windows-like KDE desktop without fear of being sued for patent
> infringement, so since the announcement of GNOME 3, SUSE announced it
> was returning to its KDE-centric roots.

> SUSE is based on RPM, the Red Hat Package Manager. It is easy to use
> but does not feature automatic dependency resolution - when you
> install a piece of software, it is up to you to install all the
> extras, the libraries and things, that it depends on. YAST tries to
> automate this for you but in my experience it is patchy and often
> fails.

> It's good, but it's big, complex and relatively slow, in my personal
> experience. It hearkens back to the days of the 1990s when you had
> thousands of choices and decisions to make.

> Ubuntu is much newer. It is about 7y old. It's based on Debian, which
> is the hacker's distro of choice, but polished and made much easier.
> Debian is even older than SUSE but it is notoriously complicated and
> unfriendly, although it is much better these days. Ubuntu is Debian
> simplified for non-techies.

> Ubuntu is small and simple. It comes with 1 best choice of app for all
> the main tasks - 1 office suite, 1 media player, 1 web browser, etc.
> SUSE offers dozens of alternatives. Ubuntu has the alternatives too
> but it doesn't ask you - the default install comes on just 1 CD and
> contains 1 example of each app. SUSE asks you to choose, which is
> harder if you don't know enough to decide.

> Ubuntu uses the Debian packaging system, DEB and APT-GET. This is
> unarguably the best and most sophisticated system for any Unix and is
> widely copied but never bettered. It pioneered automatic recursive
> depenency resolution, meaning that APT figures out all the libraries
> and things all your programs need and installs *and updates* them for
> you automatically. SUSE tries to replicate this with YAST but it's not
> as good. Red Hat tries with YUM, Mandriva with URPMI, but none are
> even close, IMHO. Apt-get wins, hands down. The theory is that once
> you install you need never reinstall as Apt will update your whole OS
> for you - indefinitely.

> Ubuntu offers few choices of desktop or tools, but everything is there
> in its online repositories if you want to experiment as you learn
> more.

> Ubuntu is based on GNOME and now the in-house developed Unity shell on
> top of GNOME. Some people don't like GNOME. Some favour KDE, or other
> alternatives such as Xfce or LXDE. Canonical, Ubuntu's backers,
> actively encourage these communities to create their own "remixes" of
> Ubuntu with different desktops and sets of apps. For instance,
> Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu and so on. Some - the ones with "-buntu" in
> their name - are officially sanctioned, but the main "real" Ubuntu is
> the one with nothing else on its name. Some of the remixes are pretty
> good but the most polished and complete, and the best-supported, is
> real Ubuntu. Some 3rd party tools and apps may not work on the
> remixes. For the best experience, stay with the "real thing".

> In summary:

> Ubuntu: relatively small, modern, simple, streamlined. Very easy and polished.

> SUSE: big, very capable, quite complex, many many options. Good admin
> tools but software management inferior, as is that of all the
> RPM-based distros.

Thanks Liam for making things clear. Then I must go with Ubuntu only
since it would give the learning environment of Linux. This thing that
Ubuntu automatically solves the problem of packages and libraries is
something giving me pleasure since it really become tough for a home
user who has to use the software and has less knowledge. So really
great thing which is missing in openSUSE. Home users are really not
able to perfectly know always which libraries they need and which not,
so how can users (home users) decide that they should install only the
said and not that, this is really typical in openSUSE, if it is the
case. Further, I came to know that, Ubuntu is really more novice
friendly then any other distribution. Some say that while Ubuntu
downloads the whole of the packages again when updating while suse
only the updates (this point I didn't understand) but for me then,
Ubuntu would really be fine.

Another thing I am having doubt is that suse that some contract with
microsoft that it can do work for MS? So people are annoyed at it, I
guess, a bad news for open source people, I only heard that suse lost
its some the popularity due to this.

Further one of the things I have notices is that I also asked for
suggestions in the Fedora list where some people were too arrogant,
saying anything, I feel that Ubuntu mailing lists are far better and
great for a novice, at least for me. Thanks.

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Old 12-24-2011, 10:36 AM
"Rameshwar Kr. Sharma"
 
Default Newbie query: Ubuntu vs openSUSE

On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 9:54 PM, Johnny <candj01@att.net> wrote:

> If you use anything but Ubuntu. Most of the other live CD I have to disable
> ipv6 thing to get on the Internet with Firefox. I have 3 PCs and have do do
> it on all. I did write this but if you try something other that Ubuntu 11.10
> you might want it handy. You can do a config:about and disable there but
> that only helps Firefox. I like unity. But I use unity2 better than Gnome.
> Just me.
> Merry Christmas and God Bless Johnny3 65+++

> Easier way to do this is to pass the kernel a parameter to disable ipv6 on
> bootup. To do that, edit /etc/default/grub and add "ipv6.disable_ipv6=1" on
> the GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT line so it looks similar to the following:

> GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet splash ipv6.disable_ipv6=1"

> Save the file and then run "sudo update-grub" to update grub.cfg and
> generate new initramfs images. Reboot and ipv6 should be disabled on all
> interfaces.

Merry Christmas to you also Johny, I am really liking Ubuntu and
definitely would give Unity a try, irrespective of what I heard.

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Old 12-24-2011, 10:39 AM
"Rameshwar Kr. Sharma"
 
Default Newbie query: Ubuntu vs openSUSE

On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Craig White <craigwhite@azapple.com> wrote:

> I was feeling somewhat sympathetic for you when you asked sort of the
> same thing on fedora-list and George harangued you for thinking that you
> had already done this very same thing as user LinuxIsOne...

> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/users/2011-December/410414.html

Might be you are sympathetic, but not so with me, I don't know about
'g' (if you are talking of that idiot), his language was more abusive
and wrong, yes I did ask in Fedora also but as a newbie to know is not
wrong. How many installations all over the world are done daily? So
many newbies daily, and he was more impersonating me, which is
absolutely something absurd and wrong.

> But now that I realize that on the above, you dissed Ubuntu and come
> back 3 days later and ask the Ubuntu list the same thing, then it's
> clear that you are just a stupid troll.

You really seem to be mis-understood with that all, so saying like
this, which is not at all the case, but yes I did ask in Fedora w.r.t.
Fedora and here w.r.t Ubuntu to know all the things.

> Rather unsurprisingly, the answers here on the Ubuntu list pretty much
> match those you got from fedora-list and I didn't check, but I suppose
> you pretty much did the same thing on some suse list too.

> Knowing how you just waste everyone's time on various lists, I'm not
> sure why anyone would want to actually answer any of your questions... I
> know I certainly won't.

Completely wrong and mistaken are you buddy!

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