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Old 12-23-2011, 08:49 PM
Liam Proven
 
Default Newbie query: Ubuntu vs openSUSE

On 23 December 2011 18:49, sdavmor <sdavmor@systemstheory.net> wrote:
> On 12/23/2011 08:07 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>
> [snip all the well-written well-thought out response]
>
>
>> In summary:
>>
>> Ubuntu: relatively small, modern, simple, streamlined. Very easy
>> andpolished.
>>
>> SUSE: big, very capable, quite complex, many many options. Good
>> admin tools but software management inferior, as is that of all
>> the RPM-based distros.
>
>
> That's an excellent summary you've provided, Liam.

Many thanks for the comments. :¬)

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Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419
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Old 12-23-2011, 09:15 PM
Liam Proven
 
Default Newbie query: Ubuntu vs openSUSE

On 23 December 2011 19:16, Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/23/2011 01:49 PM, sdavmor wrote:
>>
>> On 12/23/2011 08:07 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>
>> [snip all the well-written well-thought out response]
>>
>>> In summary:
>>>
>>> Ubuntu: relatively small, modern, simple, streamlined. Very easy
>>> andpolished.
>>>
>>> SUSE: big, very capable, quite complex, many many options. Good
>>> admin tools but software management inferior, as is that of all
>>> the RPM-based distros.
>>
>>
>> That's an excellent summary you've provided, Liam.
>
>
> Liam, somehow you're coming off dissing rpm, which I'm sure wasn't your
> intent.

Well, actually...

I used RPM-based distros for many years. Red Hat, Caldera (as we've
discussed on the Bikeshed list) and then SUSE. I also used to review
Linux distros for various magazines, including PC Pro, Personal
Computer World and others - so at that time, in the late 1990s, I was
familiar with pretty much all of them.

At the time, the choice was fairly stark - user friendliness, distros
that were easy to install and to use, which were feature-complete and
friendly - mostly based on RPM; or hardcore hacker distros, or ones
that were commercial or somewhat limited; in many cases, based on
.DEB.

Ubuntu was /the/ distro that changed this. It gave Debian the
friendliness and simplicity that it lacked, the completeness that
Stormix didn't offer, the simplicity that you had to pay for with
Corel or Xandros or Libranet. It didn't and doesn't give the
sophisticated, complete, setup and admin tools that SUSE or something
did. Ubuntu won't help you find the IRQ of your graphics card, or let
you set your preferred colour depth on the screen, or install the
driver you want for your sound card - it assumes that this is
automatic on all modern hardware. And mostly, it is.

But Ubuntu takes .deb and apt-get and makes it easy and simple.

And, yes, after /considerable/ experience with RPM in both
research/testing and commercial environments, compared with the
simplicity and power and flexibility of apt-get, yes, I *do* think
that RPM is /considerably/ inferior.

I have experimented with automatic dependency resolution in YAST and
found it quite poor. I've also played with YUM and URPMI and whereas
they worked OK, I've heard far more horror stories about them than I
ever have about apt-get.

Certainly, 21st century RPM has fixed most of the issues. It does now
have dependency resolution and so on.

SUSE also has the option of APT4RPM, which ports APT-GET onto the
underpinnings of RPM rather than DPKG and .DEB. This works
surprisingly well and I personally think SUSE were fools /not/ to
adopt it and move YAST2 over to calling APT4RPM instead of doing its
own job. But even so, you can't do things like complete distribution
upgrades with RPM, not even APT4RPM.

So, yes, the gap has narrowed, but still, even today, the Debian
family don't have the admin tools that SUSE boasts, and the RPM-based
distros don't have the elegant, mature package-management system that
the Debian family do.

--
Liam Proven • Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven@gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven • MSN: lproven@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508

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Old 12-23-2011, 10:17 PM
Jamie Paul Griffin
 
Default Newbie query: Ubuntu vs openSUSE

On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 09:58:40AM -0700, Craig White wrote:

> But now that I realize that on the above, you dissed Ubuntu and come
> back 3 days later and ask the Ubuntu list the same thing, then it's
> clear that you are just a stupid troll.

> Rather unsurprisingly, the answers here on the Ubuntu list pretty much
> match those you got from fedora-list and I didn't check, but I suppose
> you pretty much did the same thing on some suse list too.

I don't think there is any need to be so harsh and unfriendly. He is new to Linux and I suspect to mailing lists as well so you could cut him some slack. He came to this list for advice and has been given some great feedback. Comments like that just put new users off from coming to ubuntu-users for help in case they get flamed.

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Old 12-23-2011, 10:27 PM
Craig White
 
Default Newbie query: Ubuntu vs openSUSE

On Fri, 2011-12-23 at 22:15 +0000, Liam Proven wrote:

> I have experimented with automatic dependency resolution in YAST and
> found it quite poor. I've also played with YUM and URPMI and whereas
> they worked OK, I've heard far more horror stories about them than I
> ever have about apt-get.
----
I don't know about that but my experiences with rpm have mostly been RH
derived distributions (RHEL, CentOS, Fedora)
----
> Certainly, 21st century RPM has fixed most of the issues. It does now
> have dependency resolution and so on.
----
nope - none whatsoever - obviously you've confused it with something
else.
----
> So, yes, the gap has narrowed, but still, even today, the Debian
> family don't have the admin tools that SUSE boasts, and the RPM-based
> distros don't have the elegant, mature package-management system that
> the Debian family do.
----
seems to me that you are trying to make major distinctions despite the
fact that the various tools seem to accomplish the same tasks with
relatively the same efficacy. Then again, it's been a long time since
I've played with YAST.

My experiences tell me that each distribution has some benefits and some
drawbacks compared to each other but the differences are not overly
significant.

Craig



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Old 12-23-2011, 11:53 PM
Craig White
 
Default Newbie query: Ubuntu vs openSUSE

On Fri, 2011-12-23 at 23:17 +0000, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 09:58:40AM -0700, Craig White wrote:
>
> > But now that I realize that on the above, you dissed Ubuntu and come
> > back 3 days later and ask the Ubuntu list the same thing, then it's
> > clear that you are just a stupid troll.
>
> > Rather unsurprisingly, the answers here on the Ubuntu list pretty much
> > match those you got from fedora-list and I didn't check, but I suppose
> > you pretty much did the same thing on some suse list too.
>
> I don't think there is any need to be so harsh and unfriendly. He is new to Linux and I suspect to mailing lists as well so you could cut him some slack. He came to this list for advice and has been given some great feedback. Comments like that just put new users off from coming to ubuntu-users for help in case they get flamed.
----
sure...

comparing distributions, like Gnome vs KDE, like emacs or vi are not
questions that have definite answers except for the personal judgment
that one can only make for themselves.

Doing it on multiple lists makes it clear that the OP isn't actually
interested in the answer, because he has already been told that there is
no single answer.

Asking the Ubuntu list just two scant days after he disdained Ubuntu on
the Fedora list made it abundantly obvious that he is just a troll and
I'm sorry if that seems harsh and unfriendly. If you feel that it is
worth your time and energy then so be it but don't say that you weren't
warned.

Craig


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Old 12-23-2011, 11:56 PM
Basil Chupin
 
Default Newbie query: Ubuntu vs openSUSE

On 24/12/11 06:16, Ric Moore wrote:

On 12/23/2011 01:49 PM, sdavmor wrote:

On 12/23/2011 08:07 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

[snip all the well-written well-thought out response]


In summary:

Ubuntu: relatively small, modern, simple, streamlined. Very easy
andpolished.

SUSE: big, very capable, quite complex, many many options. Good
admin tools but software management inferior, as is that of all
the RPM-based distros.


That's an excellent summary you've provided, Liam.


Liam, somehow you're coming off dissing rpm, which I'm sure wasn't
your intent. Ric


Not to mention that, as someone who contributes to a technical journal,
he is living in the past.


openSUSE is not owned by Novell anymore. Novell was bought by
Attachmate, and SuSE is now also a separate unit operating in/from
Germany (SuSE's land of birth)[1].


Furthermore, the software package management system in YaST is very
efficient and resolves dependencies perfectly -- totally contrary to
what "he who doesn't know his facts" claims.


[1] What may be throwing some people off the scent is that there are
some URLs associated with openSUSE which still have Novell in their URL
name but this is only because there hasn't been time to alter
documentation, URL names, etc.


BC


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Old 12-24-2011, 12:47 AM
Ric Moore
 
Default Newbie query: Ubuntu vs openSUSE

On 12/23/2011 05:15 PM, Liam Proven wrote:


So, yes, the gap has narrowed, but still, even today, the Debian
family don't have the admin tools that SUSE boasts, and the RPM-based
distros don't have the elegant, mature package-management system that
the Debian family do.


Caldera had the good sense to just use rpm as Red Hat did, since they
were a red-haired step child, so to speak. Ole Donnie caught hell, on
the Caldera list, when Caldera had about their 3rd or 4th release and
about a week or so later Red Hat came out with a new and improved
version of RPM that nailed ours. It's not always roses when a distro
competes with another. Ric




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"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

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Old 12-24-2011, 12:54 AM
Ric Moore
 
Default Newbie query: Ubuntu vs openSUSE

On 12/23/2011 07:56 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:

On 24/12/11 06:16, Ric Moore wrote:

On 12/23/2011 01:49 PM, sdavmor wrote:

On 12/23/2011 08:07 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

[snip all the well-written well-thought out response]


In summary:

Ubuntu: relatively small, modern, simple, streamlined. Very easy
andpolished.

SUSE: big, very capable, quite complex, many many options. Good
admin tools but software management inferior, as is that of all
the RPM-based distros.


That's an excellent summary you've provided, Liam.


Liam, somehow you're coming off dissing rpm, which I'm sure wasn't
your intent. Ric


Not to mention that, as someone who contributes to a technical journal,
he is living in the past.

openSUSE is not owned by Novell anymore. Novell was bought by
Attachmate, and SuSE is now also a separate unit operating in/from
Germany (SuSE's land of birth)[1].

Furthermore, the software package management system in YaST is very
efficient and resolves dependencies perfectly -- totally contrary to
what "he who doesn't know his facts" claims.

[1] What may be throwing some people off the scent is that there are
some URLs associated with openSUSE which still have Novell in their URL
name but this is only because there hasn't been time to alter
documentation, URL names, etc.


Well, the entire topic is like religion and politics, best not dwelled
on to any great length among "polite society". Ric



--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

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