FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Ubuntu > Ubuntu User

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 12-01-2011, 04:17 AM
"Cybe R. Wizard"
 
Default Ubuntu loosing its popularity

On Wed, 30 Nov 2011 18:02:21 -0800
Ernest Doub <hideserted@gmail.com> wrote:

> The reason for going to "push button drive" in automobiles has to do
> with the increasing cost reductions made possible by using electronic
> controls instead of mechanical linkages.
> Since the underlying systems are all monitored and controlled through
> integrated circuits it now just makes sense to adopt that control
> scheme for automatic transmissions.
> Manual transmissions still require a mechanical linkage for gear
> changing. Any of the so called auto/manual trans setups is just an
> automatic transmission with an override on the automatic part.
> Now if they would just start using a linux based system for the super
> wiz bang toys instead of the microsoft system...

And, just with fly-by-wire aircraft, the Powers-That-Be can take
control of your vehicle with a powerful enough transmitter /or/ by
using the included back door in the software.

No electro-magnetic pulse needed any more, none of that cumbersome
radiation shielding.

Cybe R. Wizard
--
Strength through Unity.
Unity through faith.
Adam Sutler

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 12-01-2011, 04:27 AM
"Cybe R. Wizard"
 
Default Ubuntu loosing its popularity

On Thu, 1 Dec 2011 02:45:12 +0000
Liam Proven <lproven@gmail.com> wrote:

> The one that infringes 235 Microsoft patents and over which it was
> threatening to sue, yes.

Alleged infringements. _/Alleged/_. No proof, no offer of any.

Geeze, Liam, you're starting to sound like a Microsoft apologist. How
about someone actually pointing out any infringing stuff, much less
really /proving/ it in a court of law before you start stating the
Microsoft threats as fact?

Threats don't do damage. Action /may/. /MAY/.

Many threats, no action=little boy shouting, "wolf!"

Cybe R. Wizard
--
Strength through Unity.
Unity through faith.
Adam Sutler

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 12-01-2011, 05:41 AM
sdavmor
 
Default Ubuntu loosing its popularity

On 11/30/2011 06:45 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
[snip]


I know that I'm not looking back, unless the MATE fork becomes
stable, and I find that I'm unhappy with Xfce, an unlikely
situation.


Seems fair enough. Classic Ubuntu is dead. Long live Xubuntu!


At the end of the day, though I hate to say it (being quite happy with
Gnome2), you are right. We must find a way forward that isn't in the
shadow of the MS boys from spitefulmaliciousvindicativetoadland, and
Xubuntu offers almost everything that will make Gnome2 lovers happy.
So if you don't care for Unity or Gnome3 (and I can't say with a
straight face that I'm particularly enamored of either of them) a
rapidly maturing robust Xfce desktop is a very good way to go. So +1
here on "long live Xubuntu!"
--
Cheers, SDM -- a 21st Century Schizoid Man
Systems Theory project website: http://systemstheory.net
find us on MySpace, GarageBand, Reverb Nation, Last FM, CDBaby
free MP3s of Systems Theory, Mike Dickson & Greg Amov music at
http://mikedickson.org.uk

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 12-01-2011, 08:46 AM
Pete
 
Default Ubuntu loosing its popularity

On 12/01/2011 02:45 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

On 30 November 2011 16:45, Art Edwards
<edwardsa@icantbelieveimdoingthis.com> wrote:


I have also used a variety of window managers, although I'm always conscious
of where I'm getting the most done. So in 1997 I was just so happy to have
X-windows on a home machine--I wasn't very fussy.


Oh, my, yes, me too!

I started with LaserMoon Linux-FT - the first LiveCD - in 1996, as I
could not get Slackware to install in 1995.


As I migrated from RH 4.1


Well, 4.2 for me. It wasn't very nice. I really didn't like Fvwm or
fvwm95 at all.

I went from there to Caldera, the first distro to bundle KDE. When
Caldera died and rose from the grave as a crazed zombie called SCO, I
abandoned it and went to SuSE with KDE.

I /really/ liked KDE 1 in the Caldera days. As you said (of GNOME, but
the point still applies):


Note that it's not just a wm, it's an environment.


I liked KDE 1.x. I found KDE 2.x too cluttered and complex. KDE 3.x
was worse. KDE 4.x just descended into comedy - it doesn't even have a
working desktop any more, just some kind of weird permanent folder
thing, which if you close by mistake seems to be gone forever. And the
weird floating bean/apostrophe things in the corners. Very odd, not at
all pleasant to use IMHO.


So, I'm not so big
on adapting, if adapting means using an inferior product.


Well, like you, I've been a GNOME user for a long time - since 2004
when I switched from SUSE to Ubuntu.

But every now and again, I try the others.

* Xfce is OK. It's too basic for me, but it works.
* KDE 4 is just ugly and stupidly complex and Byzantine with 2^16
little options to twiddle.
* LXDE I like - it's simple, clean and quick and does what you need.
* OpenBox and Fluxbox are just too basic.
* WindowMaker has potential and looks great.
* Enlightenment falls somewhere between very pretty and
over-ornamented into a eye-searing mess - a tart's handbag, as we say
in British biker circles - and in use it doesn't make any sense to me,
but I could live with it if I had to. Probably by theming it into
something very drab and dull and grey like WindowMaker. :)

So really I don't see what all the fuss is about. GNOME 2 worked, but
it was much like Windows and Microsoft is getting threatening.


<snip>
Speaking as an ex windows user (migrated to Ubuntu at the time of the
VISTA fiasco) I have found GNOME2 to be more usable / customizable and
generally more suited to my daily needs. WHEN is someone (or the
community) going to stand up to MS they DO NOT rule the world no matter
what Bill Gates says. To loose our favourite desktop environment due to
ALLEGED infringements is ridiculous!




The one that infringes 235 Microsoft patents and over which it was
threatening to sue, yes. That one. The one that is "inspired by" the
patented commercial product of a large and litigious company that has
a protection racket in place with SUSE but doesn't with the 2 big
GNOME distro makers - Ubuntu and Canonical.

You know what SUSE's response was to GNOME 3? It was to announce it
was going back to KDE! :) Which it can, because it has a deal withmore suited
MICROS~1.

Red Hat doesn't, so it's going with GNOME Shell. Canonical/Ubuntu
doesn't, and it didn't like GNOME Shell, so it's turned its Netbook
Remix into a sort-of copy of Mac OS X.

All 3 seem like sensible moves to me. Staying with GNOME 2 was not an option.


Luckily Xfce has progressed so that it is almost as
good as Gnome 2. Based on the Xfce traffic on the list, gnome users are
migrating their in large numbers, so Xfce will probably get really good
quickly.


I hope so too.


I know that I'm not looking back, unless the MATE fork becomes
stable, and I find that I'm unhappy with Xfce, an unlikely situation.


Seems fair enough. Classic Ubuntu is dead. Long live Xubuntu!



Having said that IMHO Gnome 3 is just as usable and not too bad at all
and I'm sure that the community will develop it into an environment that
again betters the MS meritocracy and when they are scared again will
they threaten litigation again or will we (the community) stand up to
this virtual dictatorship! I for one would happily donate to a legal
fund to help this excellent OS stand up to Microsplot.


I am currently looking at Xfce and I agree that it will probably become
the new GNOME, but should we abandon our long trusted friend just
because of an unsubstantiated threat.


Just my 10 cents (pence, or yen)

Regards

Pete


--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 12-01-2011, 12:57 PM
Liam Proven
 
Default Ubuntu loosing its popularity

On 1 December 2011 05:27, Cybe R. Wizard <cybe_r_wizard@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Dec 2011 02:45:12 +0000
> Liam Proven <lproven@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The one that infringes 235 Microsoft patents and over which it was
>> threatening to sue, yes.
>
> Alleged infringements. *_/Alleged/_. *No proof, no offer of any.
>
> Geeze, Liam, you're starting to sound like a Microsoft apologist. *How
> about someone actually pointing out any infringing stuff, much less
> really /proving/ it in a court of law before you start stating the
> Microsoft threats as fact?

I am considering a detailed analysis, but it's going to be several
weeks of hard work and unless I can find someone to pay for it, it's a
tricky proposition how I can justify it as a freelancer. It won't make
riveting reading.

I have been working with and supporting MICROS~1 products
professionally, including Windows, for twenty-three wretched years. I
know them inside out and back to front, from before Windows 3.0 was
released. I also have used or worked with Mac System 5 onwards, DR GEM
in both PC and ST incarnations, Amiga Intuition, SunOS and OpenLook,
Acorn RISC OS 2 onwards, Psion EPOC, GEOS, OS/2 and various other
1980s GUIs. I have a nodding acquaintance with NeXTStep, CDE/Motif,
the Apple Lisa and various others.

The thing that I am coming to realise is that this places me in a very
rare position. PCs exploded onto the world stage in the late 1990s
with the rise of the WorldWideWeb. Most individuals didn't own one
until the 21st century. Most PC technical professionals are in their
20s or 30s and have never seen or used 1980s or early 1990s software.

The technical commentators and movers-and-shakers who were around when
this stuff was being created, in the 1970s and 1980s, have moved on -
they've either retired or they're senior management now. Or they're
dead - lot of fat, sedentary geeky types, addicted to junk food and
caffeinated drinks and consequently with very poor health in that
community.

I have a personal maxim: competent IT techies know multiple platforms.
If someone doesn't know many platforms - x86, RISC, other CISC chips,
DOS, Windows, Unix and a few other unrelated OSs - then they're no
damned good as a techie.

But that is an old man's POV. Most kids in the business now know
nothing except PCs running recent Microsoft OSs, ones that only came
out since the big UI redesign of the 1990s. They have never seen
anything else.

They look at something different, such as a PC running a Unix instead,
and think that this means they're cross-platform.

Well, it really doesn't.

Unless someone is familiar with and competent in /multiple/ platforms
/totally unrelated to the x86 PC and Microsoft OSs/ then they don't
actually know anything about the breadth of software design, function
and implementation.

If all someone has ever seen is Microsoft OSs from the late 1990s
onwards - Windows 95/98/ME, NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7 - then they don't know
*ANYTHING AT ALL* about GUI design because *they've only ever used
ONE.* The products all have exactly the same GUI.

And if they maybe have a tiny bit of exposure to the Mac, well, that
helps a little, but not much, because large elements of the Windows
GUI were ripped off from the Mac in the first place.

The *only* way to *really* understand GUI design and implementation is
familiarity with GUIs that were complete and finished before about
1993 when the betas of "Windows 4" started to leak, because almost
everything after that is coloured by the monopoly power in IT:
Microsoft.

And the big problem that this causes is an aspect of human nature.
Once someone is getting on in years and has a large amount of
knowledge in an area, has become an expert, then it becomes very hard
to change their mind. They become convinced that they are right.

Everyone knew that swans were white until Europeans colonised
Australia, because all swans /that they knew about/ were white. There
were millions of black swans, but they were far away and the people
that knew about them were nobody anyone listened to.

The point of all this is that there are lots of examples of GUIs out
there that show how different and diverse GUIs can be - but few people
remember them.

There are lots of non-Windows-like desktops and window managers *on
Linux* that don't look or work like Windows, but nobody much uses
them. Anyone here used wm2? Twm? Olwm?

Forget metacity, clutter, kwm, xfwm, fvwm, fvwm95, icewm - they're all
Windows-like.

And of course a window manager is only a small part of a desktop.
There are at least 2 complete desktop environments that I know of for
Linux that are based on pre-Windows-9x OSs: GNUstep and ROX Desktop.
You know how many distros offer these as an option? None. Not a one.
I've looked.

(No, not Rox-filer, the whole Rox-desktop. It's not even an option in Debian.)

Plus, of course, all the apps on Linux tend to be modelled on Windows
apps. All the bundled ones in Ubuntu are. Firefox, Evolution,
Thunderbird, Pidgin, Empathy, Rhythmbox, Banshee - all Windows-style
apps. So build a desktop around them and you still have a large
element of the Windows experience. It's inescapable.

Microsoft isn't shouting at anyone. It has merely coughed discreetly
and mentioned this.

The FOSS community *should* have gone "ohhh s***, they're right! We'd
better get moving!"

But no, because there are hardly any people left who actually remember
how things were before the MS monopoly, who realise that MS is in fact
absolutely right.

So instead, the FOSS community has mostly just gone "ahh,
fuggedaboudit, it's all bluster. We don't use any of their code, we've
got nothing to worry about."

Or, of course, it's signed MS' nasty little pacts. And look at who did that?

Linspire - dead.
Xandros - good as dead.
Turbolinux - good as dead.
SUSE - struggling, after 3 takeovers in a row.

> Threats don't do damage. *Action /may/. */MAY/.

/Au contraire./ Threats can do immense damage and can move entire
nations, and often have.

> Many threats, no action=little boy shouting, "wolf!"

It can do, but not always.

--
Liam Proven • Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven@gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven • MSN: lproven@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 12-01-2011, 01:23 PM
Hakan Koseoglu
 
Default Ubuntu loosing its popularity

On 1 December 2011 13:57, Liam Proven <lproven@gmail.com> wrote:
> There are at least 2 complete desktop environments that I know of for
> Linux that are based on pre-Windows-9x OSs: GNUstep and ROX Desktop.
Long-rant cut clean, GNUStep is a clone of OpenStep, which is
basically a port of Steve Jobs' NextStep.

Even though I used to use *Step WMs in the past, they are borderline
impossible to use and the only thing they have going for is "well,
they're not (expletive) Windows/Gnome/Unity/Insert-pet-peeve".

WindowMaker has taken over GnuStep's stagnated remains and appears to
be available for Ubuntu variants. Also GnuStep is still available in
the Ubuntu repos. On the other hand I would rather advise people use
to use Unity before either of these. Disclaimer: I was an avid
Windowmaker/*Step user, even on Windows (thanks Cygwin).

Still, I wouldn't recommend any Unity-based environment to anyone
these days under any circumstance. Luckily it happens to be Ubuntu's
toy.

--
Hakan (m1fcj) - http://www.hititgunesi.org
"What part of 'ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn'
don't you understand?"

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 12-01-2011, 01:44 PM
Liam Proven
 
Default Ubuntu loosing its popularity

On 1 December 2011 14:23, Hakan Koseoglu <hakan@koseoglu.org> wrote:
> On 1 December 2011 13:57, Liam Proven <lproven@gmail.com> wrote:
>> There are at least 2 complete desktop environments that I know of for
>> Linux that are based on pre-Windows-9x OSs: GNUstep and ROX Desktop.
> Long-rant cut clean, GNUStep is a clone of OpenStep,

True.

> which is
> basically a port of Steve Jobs' NextStep.

Er, not really. OpenStep was NeXTStep 4.0, when NeXT moved it from
running only on NeXT hardware to also supporting x86 PCs and (although
it was never released) SUN SPARCstations.

> Even though I used to use *Step WMs in the past, they are borderline
> impossible to use and the only thing they have going for is "well,
> they're not (expletive) Windows/Gnome/Unity/Insert-pet-peeve".

They are a bit weird, yes. :¬)

I think this is one of the reasons there isn't a GNUstep-based distro.
There is a project to enhance GNUstep, make it a bit more
C21-friendly, and build a distro around it, but they've not got
anywhere near a release in 4-5y now:
http://etoileos.com/

> WindowMaker has taken over GnuStep's stagnated remains

Er, no. WindowMaker is a standalone window manager. GNUstep is a set
of class libraries and some apps built with them. It recommends the
WindowMaker desktop but it will run under any Linux WM. They are
totally separate.

> and appears to
> be available for Ubuntu variants. Also GnuStep is still available in
> the Ubuntu repos.

Yes, both are there.

> On the other hand I would rather advise people use
> to use Unity before either of these. Disclaimer: I was an avid
> Windowmaker/*Step user, even on Windows (thanks Cygwin).

Fair enough. I quite like it, myself.

> Still, I wouldn't recommend any Unity-based environment to anyone
> these days under any circumstance. Luckily it happens to be Ubuntu's
> toy.

I've been running it for about 10-11 months now. I really like it.
It's a distinct improvement on GNOME 2 in some ways. (And a backwards
step in others, but hey, it's new and immature.)

--
Liam Proven • Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven@gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven • MSN: lproven@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 12-01-2011, 01:51 PM
LinuxIsOne
 
Default Ubuntu loosing its popularity

On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Liam Proven <lproven@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Still, I wouldn't recommend any Unity-based environment to anyone
>> these days under any circumstance. Luckily it happens to be Ubuntu's

>> toy.

> I've been running it for about 10-11 months now. I really like it.
> It's a distinct improvement on GNOME 2 in some ways. (And a backwards
> step in others, but hey, it's new and immature.)


Just have a small question: For even programing is Unity okay?

Thanks.

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 12-01-2011, 01:58 PM
Oliver Grawert
 
Default Ubuntu loosing its popularity

hi,
On Thu, 1 Dec 2011 09:51:03 -0500
LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:

> Just have a small question: For even programing is Unity okay?
>
what do you think ubuntu developers use to develop ubuntu ?

ciao
oli
--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 12-01-2011, 01:59 PM
Liam Proven
 
Default Ubuntu loosing its popularity

On 1 December 2011 14:51, LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Liam Proven <lproven@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Still, I wouldn't recommend any Unity-based environment to anyone
>>> these days under any circumstance. Luckily it happens to be Ubuntu's
>>> toy.
>
>> I've been running it for about 10-11 months now. I really like it.
>> It's a distinct improvement on GNOME 2 in some ways. (And a backwards
>> step in others, but hey, it's new and immature.)
>
> Just have a small question: For even programing is Unity okay?

I don't know. I am not a programmer. So, sorry, I can't answer you.


--
Liam Proven • Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven@gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven • MSN: lproven@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 10:38 AM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org