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Old 11-30-2011, 04:36 PM
Art Edwards
 
Default Ubuntu loosing its popularity

On 11/30/2011 10:13 AM, Pastor JW wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 30, 2011 9:03:54 am Colin Law wrote:
>> On 30 November 2011 16:45, Art Edwards
>>
>> <edwardsa@icantbelieveimdoingthis.com> wrote:
>>> ...
>>> To me Unity
>>> is Ubuntu's Edsel and Gnome 3 is gnome's Edsel. Worse, they have dropped
>>> their Thunderbird for their Edsel.
>> Could you clarify the Thunderbird comment please? Thunderbird has not
>> been dropped has it?
> He is using Ford motor cars as an example. However, the Edsel was well ahead
> of its time which was the major problem. Quirky styling, push button
> automatic transmission selector in the middle of the steering wheel, and very
> large engines. I owned both. No, Thunderbird as a mailer for Ubuntu has not
> been dropped.
>
Interesting that you brought up push button drive. That ended up being a
gimmick that was dropped a few years later by all the major auto makers.
I had a 1963 Dodge Dart with push button drive. Not a great innovation,
really. IMHO, either is the dock in Unity.

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Old 11-30-2011, 05:02 PM
Douglas Pollard
 
Default Ubuntu loosing its popularity

On 11/30/2011 11:45 AM, Art Edwards wrote:


On 11/30/2011 03:17 AM, Nicolas Kovacs wrote:
Le

29/11/2011 17:00, Art Edwards a crit :

Except that Unity is more like Britney
Spears than Archie Shepp.




Since I use Ubuntu in a professional context, I usually stick to
LTS versions (currently 10.04). Out of curiosity, I installed
11.10 on a sandbox machine, and I admit I liked it. I guess I'll
check it out more in detail next summer, when it's more mature
and stable.



I don't quite get all the WM-bashing in the Linux world. I've
been using KDE since 2.x, GNOME since 1.x, XFCE since 3.x,
Windowmaker since 0.x, and I just adapted. It's like driving
different motorcycles. Since every single one has its quirks,
you just adapt without making a fuzz.



Cheers,



Niki




I have also used a variety of window managers, although I'm always
conscious of where I'm getting the most done. So in 1997 I was
just so happy to have X-windows on a home machine--I wasn't very
fussy. As I migrated from RH 4.1 to Suse, which was KDE, and then
to Debian, the wm's looked either like microsoft windows 3.1, or
CDE. Then gnome came out, and it was clear that this was a
superior system, because I just found myself getting more done.
Note that it's not just a wm, it's an environment. You can run
either the metacity or the compiz window managers inside gnome.
Every now and then I would check out KDE because it had such a
great look, but within days, I found myself back in gnome because
I was more productive. So, I'm not so big on adapting, if adapting
means using an inferior product. To bend your motorcycle analogy a
little bit, in 1958 Ford introduced the Edsel as a visionary car.
It was a pig. The difference is that they didn't excoriate their
customers for not embracing change, they just dropped it. To me
Unity is Ubuntu's Edsel and Gnome 3 is gnome's Edsel. Worse, they
have dropped their Thunderbird for their Edsel. So, the wm-bashing
is because we have lost the best option. Luckily Xfce has
progressed so that it is almost as good as Gnome 2. Based on the
Xfce traffic on the list, gnome users are migrating their in large
numbers, so Xfce will probably get really good quickly. I know
that I'm not looking back, unless the MATE fork becomes stable, and
I find that I'm unhappy with Xfce, an unlikely situation.



Art Edwards







I guess the only big deal with me is I like having six desktops that
I can go from one to the other on when doing video.* I usually* have
4 to5 programs running and go back and forth on them. Other than
that I don't have any problems with unity or what ever.* If it turns
out that I can't have my desktops I'll probably just stay with a
version that has them.* I'll just keep it all on DVD and reinstall
from them. * Doug*




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Old 11-30-2011, 05:24 PM
J
 
Default Ubuntu loosing its popularity

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 12:36, Art Edwards
<edwardsa@icantbelieveimdoingthis.com> wrote:
> Interesting that you brought up push button drive. That ended up being a
> gimmick that was dropped a few years later by all the major auto makers.
> I had a 1963 Dodge Dart with push button drive. Not a great innovation,
> really. IMHO, either is the dock in Unity.

Only because the shifter on the stalk and in the console were "more
familiar" and not as strange. However, if you notice today's vehicles
are slowly coming back to push button drive.

There's been push-button AWD/4WD for some time now, and high end and
even some lower end cars are coming with push-button or spinny-knob
automatic transmissions.

So really, if you're saying that Unity is the Push Button Automatic,
well, then it will eventually become accepted.

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Old 11-30-2011, 05:43 PM
Billie Walsh
 
Default Ubuntu loosing its popularity

On 11/30/2011 12:24 PM, J wrote:

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 12:36, Art Edwards
<edwardsa@icantbelieveimdoingthis.com> wrote:

Interesting that you brought up push button drive. That ended up being a
gimmick that was dropped a few years later by all the major auto makers.
I had a 1963 Dodge Dart with push button drive. Not a great innovation,
really. IMHO, either is the dock in Unity.


Only because the shifter on the stalk and in the console were "more
familiar" and not as strange. However, if you notice today's vehicles
are slowly coming back to push button drive.

There's been push-button AWD/4WD for some time now, and high end and
even some lower end cars are coming with push-button or spinny-knob
automatic transmissions.

So really, if you're saying that Unity is the Push Button Automatic,
well, then it will eventually become accepted.



Some of them are going to "paddle" shifters on the steering wheel.

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government lest it come to dominate our lives and interests”.


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Old 11-30-2011, 08:05 PM
Art Edwards
 
Default Ubuntu loosing its popularity

On 11/30/2011 11:24 AM, J wrote:

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 12:36, Art Edwards
<edwardsa@icantbelieveimdoingthis.com> wrote:


Interesting that you brought up push button drive. That ended up being a
gimmick that was dropped a few years later by all the major auto makers.
I had a 1963 Dodge Dart with push button drive. Not a great innovation,
really. IMHO, either is the dock in Unity.



Only because the shifter on the stalk and in the console were "more
familiar" and not as strange. However, if you notice today's vehicles
are slowly coming back to push button drive.

There's been push-button AWD/4WD for some time now, and high end and
even some lower end cars are coming with push-button or spinny-knob
automatic transmissions.

So really, if you're saying that Unity is the Push Button Automatic,
well, then it will eventually become accepted.



AWD/4WD is a niche. In that sense Unity will probably be accepted.*
If I were to guess the non-4WD transmision variations are a
marketing gimmick. It's something new without any increase
functionality.* So, in that sense, it's better than Unity--Unity
reduces functionality, or makes the functionality more clumsy.



I do think that the idea of being accepted eventually is
telling. Important innovations are readily accepted. Cell phones,
laptops, USB drives, as examples, needed no persuasion. Even things
like tablets and smart phones have been immediate successes. Their
utility was obvious. When you have to have arguments with your users
about the utility of something, you should listen to it. That is not
the sound of brilliant innovation. When you see surveys like the one
at the top of this thread, it should tell you something. When Linus
Torvalds calls Gnome 3 'an unholy mess' in a g+ thread attended by
major developers who agree, the abandonment of a great interface
should be rethought. As I have stated, now that I have Xfce working
well, this is more of an academic conversation. I'm guessing that
Xfce will be the new gnome.



Art Edwards



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Old 11-30-2011, 08:25 PM
Douglas Pollard
 
Default Ubuntu loosing its popularity

On 11/30/2011 04:05 PM, Art Edwards wrote:


On 11/30/2011 11:24 AM, J wrote:

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 12:36, Art Edwards
<edwardsa@icantbelieveimdoingthis.com> wrote:


Interesting that you brought up push button drive. That ended up being a
gimmick that was dropped a few years later by all the major auto makers.
I had a 1963 Dodge Dart with push button drive. Not a great innovation,
really. IMHO, either is the dock in Unity.


Only because the shifter on the stalk and in the console were "more
familiar" and not as strange. However, if you notice today's vehicles
are slowly coming back to push button drive.

There's been push-button AWD/4WD for some time now, and high end and
even some lower end cars are coming with push-button or spinny-knob
automatic transmissions.

So really, if you're saying that Unity is the Push Button Automatic,
well, then it will eventually become accepted.



AWD/4WD is a niche. In that sense Unity will probably be
accepted.* If I were to guess the non-4WD transmision variations
are a marketing gimmick. It's something new without any increase
functionality.* So, in that sense, it's better than Unity--Unity
reduces functionality, or makes the functionality more clumsy.



I do think that the idea of being accepted eventually is
telling. Important innovations are readily accepted. Cell phones,
laptops, USB drives, as examples, needed no persuasion. Even
things like tablets and smart phones have been immediate
successes. Their utility was obvious. When you have to have
arguments with your users about the utility of something, you
should listen to it. That is not the sound of brilliant
innovation. When you see surveys like the one at the top of this
thread, it should tell you something. When Linus Torvalds calls
Gnome 3 'an unholy mess' in a g+ thread attended by major
developers who agree, the abandonment of a great interface should
be rethought. As I have stated, now that I have Xfce working well,
this is more of an academic conversation. I'm guessing that Xfce
will be the new gnome.



Art Edwards







I have never tried Xfce before and installed about an hour ago. So
far I like it!* I have my 6 desktops that I like so much. It's
familiar and handsome and the colors are soothing and nice.** How do
you try Thunar, I haven't look at that yet? * * Doug



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Old 12-01-2011, 01:02 AM
Ernest Doub
 
Default Ubuntu loosing its popularity

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 10:24 AM, J <dreadpiratejeff@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 12:36, Art Edwards

<edwardsa@icantbelieveimdoingthis.com> wrote:

> Interesting that you brought up push button drive. That ended up being a

> gimmick that was dropped a few years later by all the major auto makers.

> I had a 1963 Dodge Dart with push button drive. Not a great innovation,

> really. IMHO, either is the dock in Unity.



Only because the shifter on the stalk and in the console were "more

familiar" and not as strange. *However, if you notice today's vehicles

are slowly coming back to push button drive.



There's been push-button AWD/4WD for some time now, and high end and

even some lower end cars are coming with push-button or spinny-knob

automatic transmissions.



So really, if you're saying that Unity is the Push Button Automatic,

well, then it will eventually become accepted.



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The reason for going to "push button drive" in automobiles has to do with the increasing cost reductions made possible by using electronic controls instead of mechanical linkages.

Since the underlying systems are all monitored and controlled through integrated circuits it now just makes sense to adopt that control scheme for automatic transmissions.Manual transmissions still require a mechanical linkage for gear changing.* Any of the so called auto/manual trans setups is just an automatic transmission with an override on the automatic part.

Now if they would just start using a linux based system for the super wiz bang toys instead of the microsoft system...
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Old 12-01-2011, 01:17 AM
Liam Proven
 
Default Ubuntu loosing its popularity

On 30 November 2011 10:17, Nicolas Kovacs <info@microlinux.fr> wrote:
> Le 29/11/2011 17:00, Art Edwards a écrit :
>
>> Except that Unity is more like Britney Spears than Archie Shepp.
>
>
> Since I use Ubuntu in a professional context, I usually stick to LTS
> versions (currently 10.04). Out of curiosity, I installed 11.10 on a sandbox
> machine, and I admit I liked it. I guess I'll check it out more in detail
> next summer, when it's more mature and stable.
>
> I don't quite get all the WM-bashing in the Linux world. I've been using KDE
> since 2.x, GNOME since 1.x, XFCE since 3.x, Windowmaker since 0.x, and I
> just adapted. It's like driving different motorcycles. Since every single
> one has its quirks, you just adapt without making a fuzz.

Absolutely. What he said.

By the way, Nicolas, it's "making a fuss", not "fuzz". :¬) I know,
silly language... :¬D

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Old 12-01-2011, 01:24 AM
Art Edwards
 
Default Ubuntu loosing its popularity

On 11/30/2011 02:25 PM, Douglas Pollard wrote:


On 11/30/2011 04:05 PM, Art Edwards wrote:


On 11/30/2011 11:24 AM, J wrote:

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 12:36, Art Edwards
<edwardsa@icantbelieveimdoingthis.com> wrote:


Interesting that you brought up push button drive. That ended up being a
gimmick that was dropped a few years later by all the major auto makers.
I had a 1963 Dodge Dart with push button drive. Not a great innovation,
really. IMHO, either is the dock in Unity.


Only because the shifter on the stalk and in the console were "more
familiar" and not as strange. However, if you notice today's vehicles
are slowly coming back to push button drive.

There's been push-button AWD/4WD for some time now, and high end and
even some lower end cars are coming with push-button or spinny-knob
automatic transmissions.

So really, if you're saying that Unity is the Push Button Automatic,
well, then it will eventually become accepted.



AWD/4WD is a niche. In that sense Unity will probably be
accepted.* If I were to guess the non-4WD transmision variations
are a marketing gimmick. It's something new without any increase
functionality.* So, in that sense, it's better than Unity--Unity
reduces functionality, or makes the functionality more clumsy.



I do think that the idea of being accepted eventually is
telling. Important innovations are readily accepted. Cell
phones, laptops, USB drives, as examples, needed no persuasion.
Even things like tablets and smart phones have been immediate
successes. Their utility was obvious. When you have to have
arguments with your users about the utility of something, you
should listen to it. That is not the sound of brilliant
innovation. When you see surveys like the one at the top of this
thread, it should tell you something. When Linus Torvalds calls
Gnome 3 'an unholy mess' in a g+ thread attended by major
developers who agree, the abandonment of a great interface
should be rethought. As I have stated, now that I have Xfce
working well, this is more of an academic conversation. I'm
guessing that Xfce will be the new gnome.



Art Edwards







I have never tried Xfce before and installed about an hour ago. So
far I like it!* I have my 6 desktops that I like so much. It's
familiar and handsome and the colors are soothing and nice.** How
do you try Thunar, I haven't look at that yet? * * Doug


Thunar is simply the default file manager. If you open a terminal
and type



thunar



You will see it and be in your home directory. If you want to look
like gnome, xfce has a Places applet for the Xfce panel. If
you click any of the directories under Places, you will get
a thunar window. There is also an Applications applet.
System is subsumed under Applications.*



HTH



Art Edwards



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Old 12-01-2011, 01:45 AM
Liam Proven
 
Default Ubuntu loosing its popularity

On 30 November 2011 16:45, Art Edwards
<edwardsa@icantbelieveimdoingthis.com> wrote:
>
> I have also used a variety of window managers, although I'm always conscious
> of where I'm getting the most done. So in 1997 I was just so happy to have
> X-windows on a home machine--I wasn't very fussy.

Oh, my, yes, me too!

I started with LaserMoon Linux-FT - the first LiveCD - in 1996, as I
could not get Slackware to install in 1995.

> As I migrated from RH 4.1

Well, 4.2 for me. It wasn't very nice. I really didn't like Fvwm or
fvwm95 at all.

I went from there to Caldera, the first distro to bundle KDE. When
Caldera died and rose from the grave as a crazed zombie called SCO, I
abandoned it and went to SuSE with KDE.

I /really/ liked KDE 1 in the Caldera days. As you said (of GNOME, but
the point still applies):

> Note that it's not just a wm, it's an environment.

I liked KDE 1.x. I found KDE 2.x too cluttered and complex. KDE 3.x
was worse. KDE 4.x just descended into comedy - it doesn't even have a
working desktop any more, just some kind of weird permanent folder
thing, which if you close by mistake seems to be gone forever. And the
weird floating bean/apostrophe things in the corners. Very odd, not at
all pleasant to use IMHO.

> So, I'm not so big
> on adapting, if adapting means using an inferior product.

Well, like you, I've been a GNOME user for a long time - since 2004
when I switched from SUSE to Ubuntu.

But every now and again, I try the others.

* Xfce is OK. It's too basic for me, but it works.
* KDE 4 is just ugly and stupidly complex and Byzantine with 2^16
little options to twiddle.
* LXDE I like - it's simple, clean and quick and does what you need.
* OpenBox and Fluxbox are just too basic.
* WindowMaker has potential and looks great.
* Enlightenment falls somewhere between very pretty and
over-ornamented into a eye-searing mess - a tart's handbag, as we say
in British biker circles - and in use it doesn't make any sense to me,
but I could live with it if I had to. Probably by theming it into
something very drab and dull and grey like WindowMaker. :¬)

So really I don't see what all the fuss is about. GNOME 2 worked, but
it was much like Windows and Microsoft is getting threatening.

It had to go and it did go. It has passed on. As a desktop, it is no
more. It has ceased to be. It has expired and gone to meet its
makefile. It is a stiff. Bereft of life, it rests in peace. If MATE
hadn't nailed it to Github, it'd be pushing up the daisies. Its
metabolic processes are now history. It is off the twig. It has kicked
the bucket, it has shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain
and joined the bleedin' choir invisible.

It is an ex-desktop.

> To me Unity
> is Ubuntu's Edsel and Gnome 3 is gnome's Edsel.

So many people say this. But why? It works! You can start apps, switch
between apps, minimise and restore them, tile them and move 'em around
virtual desktops. You can open multiple instances and see how many
windows you've got. (GNOME Shell doesn't do most of that.) You can
pick apps off a list or run them with a convenient shortcut, or start
them from a convenient, easy, friendly icon bar of frequently-used
ones, which it even imports from GNOME 2 when you upgrade!

> So, the wm-bashing is because we have
> lost the best option.

The one that infringes 235 Microsoft patents and over which it was
threatening to sue, yes. That one. The one that is "inspired by" the
patented commercial product of a large and litigious company that has
a protection racket in place with SUSE but doesn't with the 2 big
GNOME distro makers - Ubuntu and Canonical.

You know what SUSE's response was to GNOME 3? It was to announce it
was going back to KDE! :¬) Which it can, because it has a deal with
MICROS~1.

Red Hat doesn't, so it's going with GNOME Shell. Canonical/Ubuntu
doesn't, and it didn't like GNOME Shell, so it's turned its Netbook
Remix into a sort-of copy of Mac OS X.

All 3 seem like sensible moves to me. Staying with GNOME 2 was not an option.

> Luckily Xfce has progressed so that it is almost as
> good as Gnome 2. Based on the Xfce traffic on the list, gnome users are
> migrating their in large numbers, so Xfce will probably get really good
> quickly.

I hope so too.

> I know that I'm not looking back, unless the MATE fork becomes
> stable, and I find that I'm unhappy with Xfce, an unlikely situation.

Seems fair enough. Classic Ubuntu is dead. Long live Xubuntu!

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