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Old 11-21-2011, 03:07 PM
"W. Scott Lockwood III"
 
Default OFFTOPIC: Liam wants to argue (Was A task-centric desktop...)

-----Original Message-----
From: ubuntu-users-bounces@lists.ubuntu.com
[mailto:ubuntu-users-bounces@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Liam Proven
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 9:07 AM
To: Ubuntu user technical support, not for general discussions
Subject: Re: A task-centric desktop...

> Yes, I've been tracking it since it first appeared, too. Mind you, my
money was on BeOS for a while,
> and OS/2 before that. Shows how wrong you can be!

I miss OS/2. We agree on that much. BeOS was interesting.

> I daresay that with some time and effort I could come up with a list of
235 direct infringements, yes.
> If you can come up with someone prepared to pay me to do so, I will be
happy to.

So, you get to make claims, but then have to be paid to back them up? The
fail is strong in this one.

> I am not calling any particular individual names.

That's a pretty weak defense. I found your comments insulting. Tell me, do
you also refer to a large group of ethnically similar people by pejorative
names, and then claim it's not racism because you didn't call any one of
them that name? Seems to be the same logic. Anyone who doesn't agree with
you is shouting and whining, but it's ok, because you didn't call any one of
us a shouting whining specifically?

How about we just avoid using pejorative terms at all?

And yes, I did mean there was a small (but important) number of examples of
prior art.

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Old 11-21-2011, 04:01 PM
Liam Proven
 
Default OFFTOPIC: Liam wants to argue (Was A task-centric desktop...)

On 21 November 2011 16:07, W. Scott Lockwood III <vladinator@gmail.com> wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ubuntu-users-bounces@lists.ubuntu.com
> [mailto:ubuntu-users-bounces@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Liam Proven
> Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 9:07 AM
> To: Ubuntu user technical support, not for general discussions
> Subject: Re: A task-centric desktop...
>
>> Yes, I've been tracking it since it first appeared, too. Mind you, my
> money was on BeOS for a while,
>> and OS/2 before that. Shows how wrong you can be!
>
> I miss OS/2. We agree on that much. BeOS was interesting.
>
>> I daresay that with some time and effort I could come up with a list of
> 235 direct infringements, yes.
>> If you can come up with someone prepared to pay me to do so, I will be
> happy to.
>
> So, you get to make claims, but then have to be paid to back them up? The
> fail is strong in this one.

Nope. It's my living, among other things. I've given you a link to a
published article in which I explained my views at length, some 4y
ago.

>> I am not calling any particular individual names.
>
> That's a pretty weak defense. I found your comments insulting. Tell me, do
> you also refer to a large group of ethnically similar people by pejorative
> names, and then claim it's not racism because you didn't call any one of
> them that name? Seems to be the same logic. Anyone who doesn't agree with
> you is shouting and whining, but it's ok, because you didn't call any one of
> us a shouting whining specifically?

Calling someone a "stick-in-the-mud" is insulting now, is it?
Seriously? I am incredulous. Perhaps this is one of those
British-versus-American things again.

> How about we just avoid using pejorative terms at all?

They are not insults and not pejorative. I am not saying people are
too stupid or something. Words such as "inflexible" are honest
representations of my impressions of people who cannot adapt to
something as trivial as a slightly-rearranged desktop. I stand by my
comments, or I wouldn't have made them.

> And yes, I did mean there was a small (but important) number of examples of
> prior art.

Let's hear them, then. Believe me, I have gone looking, hard, in
depth. Every other taskbar-and-start-menu interface - QNX Neutrino,
OS/2 Warp 4 Launch bar, BeOS Tracker, etc. - *postdates* Win95.

Xerox contributed less than you'd think to modern GUIs. Apple invented
a very large amount of new features, some large, some small. The whole
idea of an icon-based file manager, for instance, was a Macintosh
innovation - the Lisa didn't have one.

The Windows 95 Explorer interface was the result of years of R&D
effort into designing a friendly interface to a multitasking OS
/without/ infringing Apple patents and IP. Ironically, this massive
effort into finding new and original ways to do things like:

* start apps easily (when binaries have cryptic names & are buried
deep in the filesystem where users shouldn't go)
* switch between windows (not programs) using a graphical interface
* manage desktop contents without putting drives on the desktop (an
Apple legally-protected feature)

... was then widely copied. And MS let everyone do it, partly because
the little companies doing so were no threat, and partly because it
realised that later, the existence of all these copies would be a
powerful legal weapon.

--
Liam Proven • Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven@gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419
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Old 11-21-2011, 04:07 PM
"W. Scott Lockwood III"
 
Default OFFTOPIC: Liam wants to argue (Was A task-centric desktop...)

-----Original Message-----
From: ubuntu-users-bounces@lists.ubuntu.com
[mailto:ubuntu-users-bounces@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Liam Proven
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 11:01 AM
To: Ubuntu user technical support, not for general discussions
Subject: Re: OFFTOPIC: Liam wants to argue (Was RE: A task-centric
desktop...)

> Nope. It's my living, among other things. I've given you a link to a
published article in which I explained my views at length, some 4y ago.

Being in print doesn't make you right. :-) I read all the provided links. I
didn't comment on them because I rather felt they backed up my argument.
Lots of talk of threats. Very little to no meat.

> Calling someone a "stick-in-the-mud" is insulting now, is it?
> Seriously? I am incredulous. Perhaps this is one of those
British-versus-American things again.

Specifically, the claims of "shouting" and "whining" are rude, and
insulting. Perhaps they aren't over there. If it wasn't your intent to use
those terms pejoratively (which, ok, I don't see how, but whatever) then I
withdraw my objection.

> They are not insults and not pejorative. I am not saying people are too
stupid or something.
> Words such as "inflexible" are honest representations of my impressions of
people who cannot
> adapt to something as trivial as a slightly-rearranged desktop. I stand by
my comments, or I
> wouldn't have made them.

Shouting and Whining. Whining more specifically. The implication that I was
shouting was kind of crass, but calling me and everyone else who is vocal
whiners is, in my opinion, insulting and a pejorative use of the word.



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Old 11-21-2011, 04:27 PM
Liam Proven
 
Default OFFTOPIC: Liam wants to argue (Was A task-centric desktop...)

On 21 November 2011 17:07, W. Scott Lockwood III <vladinator@gmail.com> wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ubuntu-users-bounces@lists.ubuntu.com
> [mailto:ubuntu-users-bounces@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Liam Proven
> Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 11:01 AM
> To: Ubuntu user technical support, not for general discussions
> Subject: Re: OFFTOPIC: Liam wants to argue (Was RE: A task-centric
> desktop...)
>
>> Nope. It's my living, among other things. I've given you a link to a
> published article in which I explained my views at length, some 4y ago.
>
> Being in print doesn't make you right. :-) I read all the provided links. I
> didn't comment on them because I rather felt they backed up my argument.
> Lots of talk of threats. Very little to no meat.

What "meat" do you want, exactly?

Given that MS is refusing to disclose exactly what patents it has, let
alone how many?

>> Calling someone a "stick-in-the-mud" is insulting now, is it?
>> Seriously? I am incredulous. Perhaps this is one of those
> British-versus-American things again.
>
> Specifically, the claims of "shouting" and "whining" are rude, and
> insulting. Perhaps they aren't over there. If it wasn't your intent to use
> those terms pejoratively (which, ok, I don't see how, but whatever) then I
> withdraw my objection.

Wow. You must be a very sensitive and easily upset, then. I am
seriously amazed. How do you cope with communicating with strangers on
the Internet? I have to tell you, don't try writing for publication
then. If you find being grouped in with others who are being described
as shouting or whining to be insulting or hurtful, then some of the
emails and forum comments that I have received over the years would
either cause you a nervous breakdown or suicide. It is a matter of
routine for me to get communications calling me a troll, an idiot, a
liar, a cretin, a retarded moron who indulges in all manner of sexual
activities will Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer and much much *much* more
besides.

Seriously. If you think I was being offensive, I am sure I can forward
you some stuff from my inbox that will shock you.

>> They are not insults and not pejorative. I am not saying people are too
> stupid or something.
>> Words such as "inflexible" are honest representations of my impressions of
> people who cannot
>> adapt to something as trivial as a slightly-rearranged desktop. I stand by
> my comments, or I
>> wouldn't have made them.
>
> Shouting and Whining. Whining more specifically. The implication that I was
> shouting was kind of crass, but calling me and everyone else who is vocal
> whiners is, in my opinion, insulting and a pejorative use of the word.

Shuttleworth is laying out tens of millions of his own personal money
to give us, for free, an excellent desktop OS. For people to then go
"Waaaaa! but I don't like the new desktop! Gimme my old one back or I
am going to go and take someone else's free software instead!" strikes
me as being remarkably childish and whiney, yes!

It's exactly the same as the massed outcry every time Facebook revamps
its interface. None of us are paying customers. None of us are being
compelled to use this. It's free.

Sure, positive critical feedback is useful, but "I hate it I hate it I
hate it gimme the old one back" is not positive critical feedback.
It's whining.

Positive feedback would be:

* I'd like an option to move the Launcher to the bottom or the right
of the screen (although I personally feel left is best)
* I'd like an option to turn off the global menu bar
* I'd like an option to resize the launcher
* I'd like a tickbox to allow all apps to create panel indicators

I am not seeing anywhere *near* as much of that as I am general griping.

--
Liam Proven • Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven@gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven • MSN: lproven@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508

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Old 11-21-2011, 04:40 PM
Dave Stevens
 
Default OFFTOPIC: Liam wants to argue (Was A task-centric desktop...)

Quoting Liam Proven <lproven@gmail.com>:

On 21 November 2011 16:07, W. Scott Lockwood III
<vladinator@gmail.com> wrote:



etc...


please take it off-list

Dave


-----Original Message-----
From: ubuntu-users-bounces@lists.ubuntu.com
[mailto:ubuntu-users-bounces@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Liam Proven
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 9:07 AM





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Old 11-21-2011, 04:59 PM
"W. Scott Lockwood III"
 
Default OFFTOPIC: Liam wants to argue (Was A task-centric desktop...)

-----Original Message-----
From: ubuntu-users-bounces@lists.ubuntu.com
[mailto:ubuntu-users-bounces@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Liam Proven
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 11:27 AM
To: Ubuntu user technical support, not for general discussions
Subject: Re: OFFTOPIC: Liam wants to argue (Was RE: A task-centric
desktop...)

> What "meat" do you want, exactly?
...
> Given that MS is refusing to disclose exactly what patents it has, let
alone how many?

That is the heart of the problem. Given their history and track record, I'm
not taking anything they say on faith. MickySoft can put up or shut up.

> Wow. You must be a very sensitive and easily upset, then. I am seriously
amazed.

I also have a lovely singing voice. That's about as relevant as your other
observation here is, so I figured I'd just throw that in.

> How do you cope with communicating with strangers on the Internet?

This is starting to get old. You are a stranger, and I'm communicating with
you. You can either figure it out for yourself, or you can't. Given how well
you respond to polite and positive feedback, I'll stop giving it to you -
clearly, you don't want it.

> I have to tell you, don't try writing for publication then.

No, really. You don't have to. It's ok. Your concern is touching, but I
shall struggle on, regardless. Stiff upper lip, and all that.

> If you find being grouped in with others who are being described as
shouting or whining
>to be insulting or hurtful, then some of the emails and forum comments that
I have
> received over the years would either cause you a nervous breakdown or
suicide.

I see! Well, then I'm very glad I'm not you, thus not necessitating having
those conversations. On behalf of all the rest of the overly sensitive
whiners, thank you for taking that bullet for us. God save the Queen.

> It is a matter of routine for me to get communications calling me a troll,
an idiot, a liar, a cretin,
> a retarded moron who indulges in all manner of sexual activities will Bill
Gates and Steve Ballmer
> and much much *much* more besides.

Well, I can only tell you this - the only commonality amongst all your
disaffected relationships is you. Perhaps you should start looking there for
a solution?

> Seriously. If you think I was being offensive,

I do.

> I am sure I can forward you some stuff from my inbox that will shock you.

Thank you for the offer, but as I have socks to darn, and paint to watch
dry, I think I shall pass this time. That, and I'm far too busy organizing
my collection of lint balls.

> Shuttleworth is laying out tens of millions of his own personal money to
give us, for free, an excellent desktop OS.

I have neither the desire, nor the inclination to comment on how Mr.
Shuttleworth decides to spend his money. I will say this: If I had to go
back to Slackware tomorrow, I wouldn't shed a single tear. That worked very
well for me for more than 10 years.

> For people to then go "Waaaaa! but I don't like the new desktop! Gimme my
old one back or I am going to
> go and take someone else's free software instead!" strikes me as being
remarkably childish and whiney, yes!

And feeling that way is your right. Saying it to others however, in the way
in which you said it, is rude. Particularly when you do so in an accusatory
way.

> It's exactly the same as the massed outcry every time Facebook revamps its
interface.

No, not really. But, feel free to think that if you like. By the way - I had
the same solution there. I went to Google+ and never looked back.

> None of us are paying customers. None of us are being compelled to use
this. It's free.

Kind of my point exactly...

> Sure, positive critical feedback is useful, but "I hate it I hate it I
hate it gimme the old one back" is not positive critical feedback.
> It's whining.

Please quote back the message in which *I* said, "I hate it I hate it I hate
it gimme the old one back". When you can do that, you can take a free shot
at me. Until then, no - sorry, you're (in my opinion) wrong.


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Old 11-21-2011, 05:17 PM
Liam Proven
 
Default OFFTOPIC: Liam wants to argue (Was A task-centric desktop...)

Enough. This has just degenerated to pot-shots. It appears to me that
*you* are directly mocking *me* now, which I never did to you.

--
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Email: lproven@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven@gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven • MSN: lproven@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508

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Old 11-21-2011, 09:29 PM
"Cybe R. Wizard"
 
Default OFFTOPIC: Liam wants to argue (Was A task-centric desktop...)

On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 11:07:32 -0600
"W. Scott Lockwood III" <vladinator@gmail.com> wrote:

> Shouting and Whining. Whining more specifically. The implication that
> I was shouting was kind of crass, but calling me and everyone else
> who is vocal whiners is, in my opinion, insulting and a pejorative
> use of the word.

+1

You may have noticed that, throughout all of history, it has been the
dissatisfied who were responsible for all of progress, whether directly
or indirectly. Dissent is /not always/ whining.

...although it certainly /can/ be.

I suggest that, if you are hearing valid (to someone, anyone) dissent
as whining, you are coloring your opinion with your own .. feelings
about the matter. (didn't want to re-use the word, "opinion")

Cybe R. Wizard
--
When Windows are opened the bugs come in.
Winduhs

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Old 11-21-2011, 09:40 PM
"Cybe R. Wizard"
 
Default OFFTOPIC: Liam wants to argue (Was A task-centric desktop...)

On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 16:29:38 -0600
"Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@earthlink.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 11:07:32 -0600
> "W. Scott Lockwood III" <vladinator@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Shouting and Whining. Whining more specifically. The implication
> > that I was shouting was kind of crass, but calling me and everyone
> > else who is vocal whiners is, in my opinion, insulting and a
> > pejorative use of the word.
>
> +1
>
> You may have noticed that, throughout all of history, it has been the
> dissatisfied who were responsible for all of progress, whether
> directly or indirectly. Dissent is /not always/ whining.
>
> ...although it certainly /can/ be.
>
> I suggest that, if you are hearing valid (to someone, anyone) dissent
> as whining, you are coloring your opinion with your own .. feelings
> about the matter. (didn't want to re-use the word, "opinion")
>
> Cybe

I'm sorry to see (and have to say) that I have been guilty of replying
to both Scott and Liam in this single quoted reply. I must be somewhere
else in my head and now return you to your regularly scheduled
programming.

Cybe R. Wizard
--
When Windows are opened the bugs come in.
Winduhs

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Old 11-22-2011, 07:13 AM
Avi Greenbury
 
Default OFFTOPIC: Liam wants to argue (Was A task-centric desktop...)

You're not the only person wanting an off-topic-but-ubuntu-related
mailing list.

Try here:

http://groups.google.com/group/bikeshed

Liam's a subscriber of it, too. If he really wants to argue, I'm sure
he'll respond on there, and this list can carry on serving its primary
purpose as somewhere for people to come for support.

Thanks!

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