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Old 11-21-2011, 03:45 AM
Eric Morey
 
Default OT: Coin and Paper Currency

On Mon, 2011-11-21 at 02:28 +0000, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 20 November 2011 23:20, Eric Morey <eric@glodime.com> wrote:
> >
> > Easy, just do what Americans do; use the paper notes for your
> > transactions; don't bother counting the coins when you get change; throw
> > your coins in a jar until you visit the bank with free coin counting
> > machines. (You will occasionally get some Canadian coins and lose a bit
> > from inaccuracies in coin machines but you gain so much piece of mind.)
>
> Tell me that again when the credit crunch comes and bites /your/ ass
> as it has done many of those of us here in Europe.
>
> I always pay with the exact money, because I don't have enough of the
> stuff to just toss it in a jar on the shelf. Money is precious.
> Ignoring small denominations is foolish and wasteful.
>

Relax. It is just a suggestion. It is also a reason dollar coins that
are minted aren't widely used except in special situations, like
casinos.

> >> It is ripe for a complete redesign. It's easy - in Britain we do this
> >> every decade or so. It's not traumatic or difficult at all.
> >
> > More Americans use cash than their UK counterparts due to deep seeded
> > distrust of authorities, banks, and technology in large portions of the
> > USA population.
>
> [Citation needed]
>

Really? You are the one suggesting the the USA make a non-trivial change
to their physical currency and related infrastructure. Notice that I
didn't respond with [Citation needed] to your claims of "in Britain we
do this every decade or so. It's not traumatic or difficult at all."
When was the last time the UK converted a denomination of paper notes to
coins or changed their nomenclature? Was the Euro conversion "not
difficult at all" in terms of direct costs of converting the physical
currency?

> That sounds like a statement of someone unfamiliar with European
> financial practices, TBH. I don't know if you are or not, but you're
> manifestly unfamiliar with how /I/ and many of those I know best live
> and work. It does not reflect the reality of the Europe I've lived in
> for 3/4 of my life.
>

Since you are curious, my experience working in the corporate credit
department of a large international lender has given me access to data
that indicated the USA's cash economy is a larger portion of of the
overall economy than the UK. Though the gap was closing when I last saw
relevant figures. (USA's cash economy is shrinking proportionately over
time).

> Living as much as possible in the cash economy means The Man can't
> trace you so easily, too. It's therefore desirable for those much
> concerned with privacy. I am not so inclined, but many are.

European privacy laws are possibly a source of confidence that causes
the persistence of the higher rate of adoption of electronic payment
methods in the UK compared to the USA.


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Old 11-21-2011, 11:29 AM
"Amedee Van Gasse"
 
Default OT: Coin and Paper Currency

On Mon, November 21, 2011 05:45, Eric Morey wrote:

> Was the Euro conversion "not difficult at all" in terms of direct costs
> of converting the physical currency?

The single currency alone is responsible for a 6-10% increase of
intra-eurozone commerce and tourism, depending on your source.
The effect is even bigger in smaller countries like Belgium, the
Netherlands, Luxemburg, Portugal and in the border regions of the bigger
countries.

Unfortunately you can't have a monetary and economic union if a political
union is only an afterthought. The current euro crisis is not due to the
single currency, but due to the lack of a political union.
This is where the USA has an advantage: it consists of 50 "countries" that
all share a common heritage, so a political union is much easier in
comparison.

(this has nothing to do with Ubuntu, sorry)


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Old 11-21-2011, 12:07 PM
Liam Proven
 
Default OT: Coin and Paper Currency

On 21 November 2011 04:45, Eric Morey <eric@glodime.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 2011-11-21 at 02:28 +0000, Liam Proven wrote:
>> On 20 November 2011 23:20, Eric Morey <eric@glodime.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Easy, just do what Americans do; use the paper notes for your
>> > transactions; don't bother counting the coins when you get change; throw
>> > your coins in a jar until you visit the bank with free coin counting
>> > machines. (You will occasionally get some Canadian coins and lose a bit
>> > from inaccuracies in coin machines but you gain so much piece of mind.)
>>
>> Tell me that again when the credit crunch comes and bites /your/ ass
>> as it has done many of those of us here in Europe.
>>
>> I always pay with the exact money, because I don't have enough of the
>> stuff to just toss it in a jar on the shelf. Money is precious.
>> Ignoring small denominations is foolish and wasteful.
>>
>
> Relax. It is just a suggestion.

Felt like a dig to me, I have to tell you. "Just give him a note,
don't sweat the fiddly small change."

> It is also a reason dollar coins that
> are minted aren't widely used except in special situations, like
> casinos.

[Citation needed] What evidence have you got to support this assertion?

>> >> It is ripe for a complete redesign. It's easy - in Britain we do this
>> >> every decade or so. It's not traumatic or difficult at all.
>> >
>> > More Americans use cash than their UK counterparts due to deep seeded
>> > distrust of authorities, banks, and technology in large portions of the
>> > USA population.
>>
>> [Citation needed]
>>
>
> Really? You are the one suggesting the the USA make a non-trivial change
> to their physical currency and related infrastructure.

Yep.

I have watched several countries change their entire currency, and
although there was lots of behind-the-scenes planning, it actually
happened literally overnight on 1 Jan 2002.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro#Introduction_of_the_euro

> Notice that I
> didn't respond with [Citation needed] to your claims of "in Britain we
> do this every decade or so. It's not traumatic or difficult at all."
> When was the last time the UK converted a denomination of paper notes to
> coins or changed their nomenclature?

Introduction of the pound coin, 1983.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_coin

The £20 note changed at the end of June:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10453756

£50 note, this month:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15539934

The £10 was last changed in 2000:
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/news/2000/090.htm

In other words, they don't do them all at the same time. But it can be
done and it was done at decimalisation, I believe.

It is simply not a big problem. Everyone else in the world copes; it's
just the US that is foolish and hidebound and unfairly discriminates
against people with visual disabilities.

> Was the Euro conversion "not
> difficult at all" in terms of direct costs of converting the physical
> currency?

Not AFAIK, but I don't live in the Eurozone. Ask Amedee.

>> That sounds like a statement of someone unfamiliar with European
>> financial practices, TBH. I don't know if you are or not, but you're
>> manifestly unfamiliar with how /I/ and many of those I know best live
>> and work. It does not reflect the reality of the Europe I've lived in
>> for 3/4 of my life.
>
> Since you are curious, my experience working in the corporate credit
> department of a large international lender has given me access to data
> that indicated the USA's cash economy is a larger portion of of the
> overall economy than the UK. Though the gap was closing when I last saw
> relevant figures. (USA's cash economy is shrinking proportionately over
> time).

All right, conceded.

>> Living as much as possible in the cash economy means The Man can't
>> trace you so easily, too. It's therefore desirable for those much
>> concerned with privacy. I am not so inclined, but many are.
>
> European privacy laws are possibly a source of confidence that causes
> the persistence of the higher rate of adoption of electronic payment
> methods in the UK compared to the USA.

Possibly. TBH I don't know many people actually that concerned about
this. I know lots of idiots who, for instance, sign up for this list
with false names in the belief that this enhances their entirely
illusory privacy, but not who do /real/ stuff like refusing to use
payment cards, electronic tickets etc.

--
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Email: lproven@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven@gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419
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Old 11-21-2011, 01:28 PM
"Amedee Van Gasse"
 
Default OT: Coin and Paper Currency

On Mon, November 21, 2011 14:07, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 21 November 2011 04:45, Eric Morey <eric@glodime.com> wrote:

>> Really? You are the one suggesting the the USA make a non-trivial change
>> to their physical currency and related infrastructure.
>
> Yep.
>
> I have watched several countries change their entire currency, and
> although there was lots of behind-the-scenes planning, it actually
> happened literally overnight on 1 Jan 2002.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro#Introduction_of_the_euro

>> Was the Euro conversion "not
>> difficult at all" in terms of direct costs of converting the physical
>> currency?
>
> Not AFAIK, but I don't live in the Eurozone. Ask Amedee.

I was going to answer that with a link to Wikipedia.

All coins and notes need to be replaced over time because of wear. I don't
suppose that there are still a lot of When you replace all of your coins
and notes at once, they are all new and you don't need to replace them the
first couple of years. So in the long run the cost is negligible compared
to the benefits.



A possible reason why the USA doesn't change 1$ from notes to coins, is
that coins are issued by Congress, while notes are issued by the Federal
Reserve Banks.
In the European eurozone, notes as well as coins are issued by the
national central banks, commissioned by the European Central Bank.


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Old 11-21-2011, 08:05 PM
Ernest Doub
 
Default OT: Coin and Paper Currency

On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 5:07 AM, Liam Proven <lproven@gmail.com> wrote:

On 21 November 2011 04:45, Eric Morey <eric@glodime.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 2011-11-21 at 02:28 +0000, Liam Proven wrote:

>> On 20 November 2011 23:20, Eric Morey <eric@glodime.com> wrote:

>> >

>> > Easy, just do what Americans do; use the paper notes for your

>> > transactions; don't bother counting the coins when you get change; throw

>> > your coins in a jar until you visit the bank with free coin counting

>> > machines. (You will occasionally get some Canadian coins and lose a bit

>> > from inaccuracies in coin machines but you gain so much piece of mind.)

>>

>> Tell me that again when the credit crunch comes and bites /your/ ass

>> as it has done many of those of us here in Europe.

>>

>> I always pay with the exact money, because I don't have enough of the

>> stuff to just toss it in a jar on the shelf. Money is precious.

>> Ignoring small denominations is foolish and wasteful.

>>

>

> Relax. It is just a suggestion.



Felt like a dig to me, I have to tell you. "Just give him a note,

don't sweat the fiddly small change."



> It is also a reason dollar coins that

> are minted aren't widely used except in special situations, like

> casinos.



Actually, the casinos all use specially minted tokens.* The current generation of machines not only accept coins and currency but are capable of accepting and printing vouchers as well.* The token/voucher system cuts down on the amount of liquid cash that must be delt with and since the tokens are only usable within that casino it keeps the "marks" captive until the house gets all of their cash.


*

[Citation needed] What evidence have you got to support this assertion?



>> >> It is ripe for a complete redesign. It's easy - in Britain we do this

>> >> every decade or so. It's not traumatic or difficult at all.

>> >

>> > More Americans use cash than their UK counterparts due to deep seeded

>> > distrust of authorities, banks, and technology in large portions of the

>> > USA population.

>>

>> [Citation needed]

>>

>

> Really? You are the one suggesting the the USA make a non-trivial change

> to their physical currency and related infrastructure.



Yep.




Can't be done "overnight" in the USA.* Can't even be done in a month here.
I ran a vending machine company for several years and the changeover in currency validating equipment is an expensive process both in terms of labor hours and the equipment itself.* The validators all have to be sent to a depot level facility for rework, requiring a large inventory of very expensive spares to make the changeover work.

Given the amount of automated sales here it is a significant cost consideration.




I have watched several countries change their entire currency, and

although there was lots of behind-the-scenes planning, it actually

happened literally overnight on 1 Jan 2002.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro#Introduction_of_the_euro



> Notice that I

> didn't respond with [Citation needed] to your claims of "in Britain we

> do this every decade or so. It's not traumatic or difficult at all."

> When was the last time the UK converted a denomination of paper notes to

> coins or changed their nomenclature?



Introduction of the pound coin, 1983.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_coin



The £20 note changed at the end of June:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10453756



£50 note, this month:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15539934



The £10 was last changed in 2000:

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/news/2000/090.htm



In other words, they don't do them all at the same time. But it can be

done and it was done at decimalisation, I believe.



It is simply not a big problem. Everyone else in the world copes; it's

just the US that is foolish and hidebound and unfairly discriminates

against people with visual disabilities.



> Was the Euro conversion "not

> difficult at all" in terms of direct costs of converting the physical

> currency?



Not AFAIK, but I don't live in the Eurozone. Ask Amedee.



>> That sounds like a statement of someone unfamiliar with European

>> financial practices, TBH. I don't know if you are or not, but you're

>> manifestly unfamiliar with how /I/ and many of those I know best live

>> and work. It does not reflect the reality of the Europe I've lived in

>> for 3/4 of my life.

>

> Since you are curious, my experience working in the corporate credit

> department of a large international lender has given me access to data

> that indicated the USA's cash economy is a larger portion of of the

> overall economy than the UK. Though the gap was closing when I last saw

> relevant figures. (USA's cash economy is shrinking proportionately over

> time).



All right, conceded.



>> Living as much as possible in the cash economy means The Man can't

>> trace you so easily, too. It's therefore desirable for those much

>> concerned with privacy. I am not so inclined, but many are.

>

> European privacy laws are possibly a source of confidence that causes

> the persistence of the higher rate of adoption of electronic payment

> methods in the UK compared to the USA.



Possibly. TBH I don't know many people actually that concerned about

this. I know lots of idiots who, for instance, sign up for this list

with false names in the belief that this enhances their entirely

illusory privacy, but not who do /real/ stuff like refusing to use

payment cards, electronic tickets etc.



--

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Email: lproven@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven@gmail.com

Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419


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Old 11-21-2011, 09:30 PM
AV3
 
Default OT: Coin and Paper Currency

On Nov/21/2011 4:0541 PM, Ernest Doub wrote:



On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 5:07 AM, Liam Proven <lproven@gmail.com
<mailto:lproven@gmail.com>> wrote:

On 21 November 2011 04:45, Eric Morey <eric@glodime.com
<mailto:eric@glodime.com>> wrote:
> On Mon, 2011-11-21 at 02:28 +0000, Liam Proven wrote:
>> On 20 November 2011 23:20, Eric Morey <eric@glodime.com
<mailto:eric@glodime.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Easy, just do what Americans do; use the paper notes for your
>> > transactions; don't bother counting the coins when you get
change; throw
>> > your coins in a jar until you visit the bank with free coin
counting
>> > machines. (You will occasionally get some Canadian coins and
lose a bit
>> > from inaccuracies in coin machines but you gain so much piece
of mind.)
>>
>> Tell me that again when the credit crunch comes and bites /your/ ass
>> as it has done many of those of us here in Europe.
>>
>> I always pay with the exact money, because I don't have enough
of the
>> stuff to just toss it in a jar on the shelf. Money is precious.
>> Ignoring small denominations is foolish and wasteful.
>>
>
> Relax. It is just a suggestion.

Felt like a dig to me, I have to tell you. "Just give him a note,
don't sweat the fiddly small change."

> It is also a reason dollar coins that
> are minted aren't widely used except in special situations, like
> casinos.


Actually, the casinos all use specially minted tokens. The current
generation of machines not only accept coins and currency but are
capable of accepting and printing vouchers as well. The token/voucher
system cuts down on the amount of liquid cash that must be delt with and
since the tokens are only usable within that casino it keeps the "marks"
captive until the house gets all of their cash.


[Citation needed] What evidence have you got to support this assertion?

>> >> It is ripe for a complete redesign. It's easy - in Britain we
do this
>> >> every decade or so. It's not traumatic or difficult at all.
>> >
>> > More Americans use cash than their UK counterparts due to deep
seeded
>> > distrust of authorities, banks, and technology in large
portions of the
>> > USA population.
>>
>> [Citation needed]
>>
>
> Really? You are the one suggesting the the USA make a non-trivial
change
> to their physical currency and related infrastructure.

Yep.



Can't be done "overnight" in the USA. Can't even be done in a month here.
I ran a vending machine company for several years and the changeover in
currency validating equipment is an expensive process both in terms of
labor hours and the equipment itself. The validators all have to be
sent to a depot level facility for rework, requiring a large inventory
of very expensive spares to make the changeover work.
Given the amount of automated sales here it is a significant cost
consideration.


I have watched several countries change their entire currency, and
although there was lots of behind-the-scenes planning, it actually
happened literally overnight on 1 Jan 2002.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro#Introduction_of_the_euro

> Notice that I
> didn't respond with [Citation needed] to your claims of "in
Britain we
> do this every decade or so. It's not traumatic or difficult at all."
> When was the last time the UK converted a denomination of paper
notes to
> coins or changed their nomenclature?

Introduction of the pound coin, 1983.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_coin

The £20 note changed at the end of June:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10453756

£50 note, this month:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15539934

The £10 was last changed in 2000:
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/news/2000/090.htm

In other words, they don't do them all at the same time. But it can be
done and it was done at decimalisation, I believe.

It is simply not a big problem. Everyone else in the world copes; it's
just the US that is foolish and hidebound and unfairly discriminates
against people with visual disabilities.

> Was the Euro conversion "not
> difficult at all" in terms of direct costs of converting the physical
> currency?

Not AFAIK, but I don't live in the Eurozone. Ask Amedee.

>> That sounds like a statement of someone unfamiliar with European
>> financial practices, TBH. I don't know if you are or not, but you're
>> manifestly unfamiliar with how /I/ and many of those I know best
live
>> and work. It does not reflect the reality of the Europe I've
lived in
>> for 3/4 of my life.
>
> Since you are curious, my experience working in the corporate credit
> department of a large international lender has given me access to
data
> that indicated the USA's cash economy is a larger portion of of the
> overall economy than the UK. Though the gap was closing when I
last saw
> relevant figures. (USA's cash economy is shrinking
proportionately over
> time).

All right, conceded.

>> Living as much as possible in the cash economy means The Man can't
>> trace you so easily, too. It's therefore desirable for those much
>> concerned with privacy. I am not so inclined, but many are.
>
> European privacy laws are possibly a source of confidence that causes
> the persistence of the higher rate of adoption of electronic payment
> methods in the UK compared to the USA.

Possibly. TBH I don't know many people actually that concerned about
this. I know lots of idiots who, for instance, sign up for this list
with false names in the belief that this enhances their entirely
illusory privacy, but not who do /real/ stuff like refusing to use
payment cards, electronic tickets etc.

--
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Email: lproven@cix.co.uk <mailto:lproven@cix.co.uk> •
GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven@gmail.com <mailto:lproven@gmail.com>
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 <tel:%2B44%2020-8685-0498> • Cell: +44
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<tel:%2B%2044%20870-9151419>
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problems caused by government, I’d be a fat filmmaker with a baseball
cap.” - from a Facebook viral video
<http://linuxcounter.net/cert/544489.png>





In the days of coining gold, gold dollars were coined and widely
circulated. After gold was no longer coined, silver dollar coins
containing the equivalent value in silver were substantially larger and
heavier. They tore holes in the pockets of carriers and required
retooling of vending machines. Their use was greatly restricted.



Even coining more user-friendly coins has never caught on, as Pres.
Jimmy Carter learned. Among the failures of his administration was the
introduction of the "Susan B. Anthony" dollar coin. Since vending
machines can now accept paper money, there is no felt need for a dollar
coin.



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Old 11-23-2011, 05:59 PM
Liam Proven
 
Default OT: Coin and Paper Currency

On 21 November 2011 21:05, Ernest Doub <hideserted@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Can't be done "overnight" in the USA.* Can't even be done in a month here.
> I ran a vending machine company for several years and the changeover in currency validating equipment is an expensive process both in terms of labor hours and the equipment itself.* The validators all have to be sent to a depot level facility for rework, requiring a large inventory of very expensive spares to make the changeover work.
> Given the amount of automated sales here it is a significant cost consideration.

The thing is, of course, that the public face of it happened
overnight, but that followed on months and years of work and
preparation behind the scenes, by governments, banks, private
companies, etc.

And they did it over the Yule/new year public holiday, for minimal disruption.

The Euro migration was a one-shot, big-bang operation.

Keeping the currency but changing the banknotes isn't.

You can do the $50 at one time, the $20 at another time, the $10 at
another, the $5 at another and so on. Start with the big-denomination
notes of which far fewer are in circulation and fewer (I would guess)
get put through vending machines and so on. It could be gradual, done
over years.

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