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Old 11-16-2011, 01:12 PM
Liam Proven
 
Default My request to ubuntu developer team

On 16 November 2011 13:12, Amedee Van Gasse <amedee-ubuntu@amedee.be> wrote:
> On Wed, November 16, 2011 02:54, Liam Proven wrote:
>
>> *But* what has happened is that some volunteers forked GNOME 2.32, the
>> last version before GNOME 3. It's now called Mate:
>> https://github.com/Perberos/Mate-Desktop-Environment
>>
>> Because the name has changed, the package names have changed. So, in
>> theory, you can have Mate and GNOME *3 installed at once.
>>
>> And there is a PPA for Mate:
>> https://launchpad.net/~amanas/+archive/mate-desktop
>>
>> So in theory you could install Mate, remove GNOME 3 and Unity and have
>> a modern Ubuntu with the classic-GNOME-style desktop.
>>
>> And who knows, maybe someone will do a remix that includes this?
>>
>> It's not a trivial task, though. And it is too soon to say if the Mate
>> project will be a success, attracte more volunteer developers and
>> continue to get updated.
>
> Mate doesn't have a lot of activity. I'm afraid that it's a stillborn child.

I suspect you are right. Trinity - the fork of KDE3 that came out
after KDE 4 - also struggled on for a short distance and then largely
died, in just the same way.

It would be better, I think, in both cases, to start over and
re-implement a "classic" style desktop on top of the newer versions of
the libraries and applets/accessories. But that is very obviously an
epic task.

It is not as apparent at first, but forking an existing desktop and
then maintaining and updating it is /also/ an epic task and needs a
lot of effort - and therefore probably a lot of people. I don't think
that a handful of people could do it.


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Old 11-16-2011, 01:17 PM
Liam Proven
 
Default My request to ubuntu developer team

On 16 November 2011 10:49, Alan Pope <alan@canonical.com> wrote:
> On 16/11/11 04:42, Billie Walsh wrote:
>>
>> On 11/15/2011 07:54 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>>
>>> So in theory you could install Mate, remove GNOME 3 and Unity and have
>>> a modern Ubuntu with the classic-GNOME-style desktop.
>>
>> So, would that be Mubuntu? *<]D
>>
>
> No, that's something else entirely
>
> http://blip.tv/daubers/mumbuntu-3688079

Mumbuntu <> Mubuntu! :¬)

For others - I had to Google it - "Mumbuntu" is Alan's name for his
project of getting his mother to use a computer, one running Ubuntu.
More info:
http://popey.com/blog/2010/02/17/mumbuntu-a-computer-for-my-mum/

Alan, my recommendation, obviously, would be a Simplicity Computer:
http://www.simplicitycomputers.co.uk/

But failing that, the next best thing would be an updated Ubuntu
desktop with the restricted extras and so on, including Mozplugger,
Acrobat Reader and so on - so you don't have to explain to her why
some stuff doesn't work - and then put Eldy on top of it.

http://eldy.eu/

It's not FOSS but it's freeware and it's very good for senior and the
computer-averse.

Obviously, we at Simplicity think that our new Envelope interface is
better ;¬) , and you won't get the benefit of our tutorial videos, but
Eldy is pretty good. (I would say that - I did the English translation
of the UI.)


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Old 11-16-2011, 01:22 PM
Liam Proven
 
Default My request to ubuntu developer team

On 16 November 2011 07:56, R S V Reddy <ubuntu.bkn1@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 12:55 AM, Rigved Rakshit <r.phate@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> I would suggest you to try out the Unity Desktop environment for at least
>>> more than a week. Do not judge Unity based on what others are saying. This
>>> is because everyone has different tastes. What does not work for some
>>> people, might actually work for you.
>>>
>>> I have been using Unity for more than 2.5 months. I have not had any
>>> problems with it.
>
> Well, then I would try on the next download, if this is the case, right now
> its not possible since LTS is working fine and I would have to reinstall the
> things.....

If you are happy with the LTS, then stay with it, by all means.

But when 12.04 comes out, you will have quite a big adjustment to make.

Me, I upgraded to 10.10 after a few days and liked Unity quite a lot.

I upgraded that to 11.04, again after a few days, and it's fine. Some
things are better, some are worse. It's much like life. ;¬)

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Old 11-16-2011, 01:28 PM
Liam Proven
 
Default My request to ubuntu developer team

On 16 November 2011 05:55, R S V Reddy <ubuntu.bkn1@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Oh I see, if I am late.

Well, really, the decision was made long ago.

10.10 included the Netbook Remix interface that looked much like Unity.
11.04 switched to Unity by default but you could still pick GNOME 2 as
an option.
11.10 moved the underlying libraries to GNOME 3 so that GNOME 2 is no
longer a choice.

> But I am unhappy to know that 12.04 would be with
> the Unity desktop since I saw many complaints and problems with the Unity
> desktop, that's why (though I have not used Unity desktop).

It's true, there are. I have written about this myself:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/08/ubuntu_on_trial/print.html

But I think it is always common to hear more from people who are
unhappy than happy.

You don't get tens of thousands of happy contented people forming mobs
and camping in public places to tell everyone how much they like
things the way that they are!

(#OCCUPYUBUNTU anyone?)

> If Gnome2 is
> dead, its okay, Gnome3 is there!

Don't be so sure. GNOME 3 Shell is not at all like GNOME 2. Unity is
more like GNOME 2 than GNOME Shell is!

> But I was not sure (before this post) than
> installing Gnome3 from Unity Desktop would have no impact on the perfectness
> of the distro being in use...

I don't understand this sentence, I'm afraid.

Yes, you can install GNOME 3 on Ubuntu 11.10+. It works fine and Unity
still works afterwards.

(If you installed GNOME 3 on Ubuntu 11.04, it broke Unity.)

With GNOME 3 installed, you can choose between Unity, GNOME Shell and
"Classic GNOME", which is actually GNOME 3 Fallback Mode - it looks a
little like GNOME 2 but doesn't work like it.

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Old 11-16-2011, 01:45 PM
R S V Reddy
 
Default My request to ubuntu developer team

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:22 AM, Liam Proven <lproven@gmail.com> wrote:



If you are happy with the LTS, then stay with it, by all means.



But when 12.04 comes out, you will have quite a big adjustment to make.



Me, I upgraded to 10.10 after a few days and liked Unity quite a lot.



I upgraded that to 11.04, again after a few days, and it's fine. Some

things are better, some are worse. It's much like life. ;)
That's cool, but at least the developers should have a stable version --- it should be intact under any case that's why it is called stable? Isn't it? If we even change the stability... then it should be no more called LTS, they (***developers***) can play with normal versions but LTS should remain intact, that is, however, my suggestion.


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Old 11-16-2011, 02:35 PM
Liam Proven
 
Default My request to ubuntu developer team

On 16 November 2011 14:45, R S V Reddy <ubuntu.bkn1@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:22 AM, Liam Proven <lproven@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If you are happy with the LTS, then stay with it, by all means.
>>
>> But when 12.04 comes out, you will have quite a big adjustment to make.
>>
>> Me, I upgraded to 10.10 after a few days and liked Unity quite a lot.
>>
>> I upgraded that to 11.04, again after a few days, and it's fine. Some
>> things are better, some are worse. It's much like life. ;¬)
>
> That's cool, but at least the developers should have a stable version

Um. The developers' version is the furthest thing from stable. It is
the one that changes all the time.

> --- it
> should be intact under any case that's why it is called stable? Isn't it?

I think I see what you are getting at.

The stable release of the distro is one with a little more testing,
but mostly, it's just supported for far longer. So it is the one that
stays the same while the ordinary semiannual releases advance.

It is not quite the same meaning as the "stable" release in Debian,
for instance. Which is why Ubuntu's is not called "stable", it's
called "long term support."

> If
> we even change the stability... then it should be no more called LTS, they
> (***developers***) can play with normal versions but LTS should remain
> intact, that is, however, my suggestion.

Change is inevitable. You have to accept me. Me, I am glad that every
6mth I get new toys to play with, more polish, more integration and so
on. I like it. I only run LTS on servers.

But my customers and clients, they get LTS, as it working and staying
working is more important than new shiny.


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Old 11-16-2011, 03:29 PM
Dave Woyciesjes
 
Default My request to ubuntu developer team

Liam Proven wrote:

On 16 November 2011 13:12, Amedee Van Gasse <amedee-ubuntu@amedee.be> wrote:

On Wed, November 16, 2011 02:54, Liam Proven wrote:


*But* what has happened is that some volunteers forked GNOME 2.32, the
last version before GNOME 3. It's now called Mate:
https://github.com/Perberos/Mate-Desktop-Environment

Because the name has changed, the package names have changed. So, in
theory, you can have Mate and GNOME 3 installed at once.

And there is a PPA for Mate:
https://launchpad.net/~amanas/+archive/mate-desktop

So in theory you could install Mate, remove GNOME 3 and Unity and have
a modern Ubuntu with the classic-GNOME-style desktop.

And who knows, maybe someone will do a remix that includes this?

It's not a trivial task, though. And it is too soon to say if the Mate
project will be a success, attracte more volunteer developers and
continue to get updated.

Mate doesn't have a lot of activity. I'm afraid that it's a stillborn child.


I suspect you are right. Trinity - the fork of KDE3 that came out
after KDE 4 - also struggled on for a short distance and then largely
died, in just the same way.

It would be better, I think, in both cases, to start over and
re-implement a "classic" style desktop on top of the newer versions of
the libraries and applets/accessories. But that is very obviously an
epic task.

It is not as apparent at first, but forking an existing desktop and
then maintaining and updating it is /also/ an epic task and needs a
lot of effort - and therefore probably a lot of people. I don't think
that a handful of people could do it.




I upgraded by Dell Latitude D830 to 11.10 a few days ago. I added CCSM
to have the dock on the side hide all the time, installed Docky. Works
fine, and I'm not bother by Unity really. Taking a little looking to
find the options I want, but otherwise I'll stick with it.


For those who really want a Gnome2 feeling, Going with Xubuntu (XFCE)
or Lubnutu (LXDE) is a sensible way to go. They take a little tweaking
to get it close to Gnome2, but not horrilbe.


What I'd like to see (unfortunately, don't have the time nor thorough
enough knowledge to do) is create a meta-package (which would bring in
appropriate apps, themes, adn configure it) for X- and Lubuntu to easily
"instantly" make them look as close to Gnome2 as possible.


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Old 11-16-2011, 04:19 PM
R S V Reddy
 
Default My request to ubuntu developer team

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:05 PM, Liam Proven <lproven@gmail.com> wrote:


Change is inevitable. You have to accept me. Me, I am glad that every

6mth I get new toys to play with, more polish, more integration and so

on. I like it. I only run LTS on servers.
I accept that change is inevitable - not only here but in all aspects of life and I agree with you. But finally I would say that we are home users, we no more no much of the technology under the tree but take only the shadow which we need. So if our tree changes, we feel some pain.

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Old 11-17-2011, 03:38 PM
Liam Proven
 
Default My request to ubuntu developer team

On 16 November 2011 17:19, R S V Reddy <ubuntu.bkn1@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:05 PM, Liam Proven <lproven@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Change is inevitable. You have to accept me. Me, I am glad that every
>> 6mth I get new toys to play with, more polish, more integration and so
>> on. I like it. I only run LTS on servers.
>
> I accept that change is inevitable - not only here but in all aspects of
> life and I agree with you.

That's always good. :¬) Sorry for my strange typing error ("me"
instead of "it") which made the post a bit confusing.

But speaking of confusing...

> But finally I would say that we are home users,
> we no more no much of the technology under the tree but take only the shadow
> which we need. So if our tree changes, we feel some pain.

I'm afraid I don't understand this at all. Is it a translated saying
or aphorism?

I have noticed that the change from GNOME 2 to Unity does seem to have
caused many people much pain, yes. Personally I find this hard to
understand, but then, Unity is much like Mac OS X and I know Macs very
well, having been a Mac user (as well as a PC and Unix one) since the
late 1980s. It is hard for me to understand how so many people can be
so inflexible that a simple rearrangement of their desktop makes them
hate the new system.

I think that the best thing that could come out of it is lots of new
users for Xubuntu and Xfce, which is not as sophisticated as GNOME but
can be made to look and work very much like it.

(A few versions ago, the Xubuntu desktop looked almost exactly like
GNOME, with the same panels in the same places. Sadly, it no longer
does, so migrants from GNOME have some work to do as soon as they
start using it, rearranging it to the way that they want.)

Some will go to GNOME 3 running in Fallback Mode, but I think that
will disappear in a release or two, maybe in GNOME 3.4 next April. I
have read a news story about increasing 2D support in GNOME Shell, but
I can't find it now. Once GNOME Shell can run without 3D acceleration
(as Unity-2D does) then I think Fallback Mode will disappear.

So unless the Unity-to-GNOME-3 migrants decide they like GNOME Shell -
unlikely, if they hate Unity that much - then even they might well end
up on Xfce, I suspect.

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Old 11-18-2011, 03:51 AM
R S V Reddy
 
Default My request to ubuntu developer team

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 10:08 PM, Liam Proven <lproven@gmail.com> wrote:

*
> But finally I would say that we are home users,

> we no more 'no' much of the technology under the tree but take only the shadow

> which we need. So if our tree changes, we feel some pain.



I'm afraid I don't understand this at all. Is it a translated saying

or aphorism?

By mistake, I just wrote 'no', it is in fact 'know'!
*



I have noticed that the change from GNOME 2 to Unity does seem to have

caused many people much pain, yes. Personally I find this hard to

understand, but then, Unity is much like Mac OS X and I know Macs very

well, having been a Mac user (as well as a PC and Unix one) since the

late 1980s. It is hard for me to understand how so many people can be

so inflexible that a simple rearrangement of their desktop makes them

hate the new system.



I think that the best thing that could come out of it is lots of new

users for Xubuntu and Xfce, which is not as sophisticated as GNOME but

can be made to look and work very much like it.


(A few versions ago, the Xubuntu desktop looked almost exactly like

GNOME, with the same panels in the same places. Sadly, it no longer

does, so migrants from GNOME have some work to do as soon as they

start using it, rearranging it to the way that they want.)



Some will go to GNOME 3 running in Fallback Mode, but I think that

will disappear in a release or two, maybe in GNOME 3.4 next April. I

have read a news story about increasing 2D support in GNOME Shell, but

I can't find it now. Once GNOME Shell can run without 3D acceleration

(as Unity-2D does) then I think Fallback Mode will disappear.



So unless the Unity-to-GNOME-3 migrants decide they like GNOME Shell -

unlikely, if they hate Unity that much - then even they might well end

up on Xfce, I suspect.

Yeah I agree, but since the Gnome users are using it since when they are
using Ubuntu (true, for at least me), so they have fallen in love with
it (at least me). On the contrary, this declaration never implies that
Unity is bad or not good. As I commented (regarding Unity problems,
earlier in some post, I guess..), since I heard some people crying for
that...., that's all! But if in case, if there were an option to choose
either from Unity or Gnome, I bet I would have gone with Gnome. Though
this has little impact (little impact even on home users, house wives,
kids, etc..etc..), but as said earlier, the thing was that Long Term
Support should be intact, other versions (like 11.04) is good to play
with or 'ready for sudden changes'; however, at the same time, I agree
that it is just 'long term support' and this 'long term' has inevitably
an end, like any other thing.

--
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