get rid of OT
 

On 09/29/2011 06:42 PM, rikona wrote:

Feel free to begin at any time. Give us a shout when you're ready...
> On a less flippant note,

On a serious note - if I had the ability to do so, it would already be
operational. Can YOU do that for us? It would be much more useful than
a flippant answer...



http://groups.google.com/group/ubuntu-list
And come on, let's go!

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Hello Alan,

Thursday, September 29, 2011, 8:33:26 AM, Alan wrote:

> Hi,

> On 29 September 2011 16:20, rikona <rikona@sonic.net> wrote:
>> Another approach might be more fruitful. It is evident that there
>> are a number of people who really like to post OT stuff. Trying to
>> silence these people by moderation is, as we can already see,
>> fraught with problems. Giving them a good place to post OT material
>> might solve a lot of the problem.
>>

> Well we could have a policy of "no OT" on the list, and police it
> hard. People who transgress get warnings then mute/removal from the
> list. It would certainly focus people's attention (and invite
> censorship claims from some of the more militant members of the
> list).

Hmmm... originally I had reservations about heavy policing, but did
not want to add to the already loud OT noise. But, in posting a
somewhat different solution, and immediately getting a flippant answer
or sarcasm, I can see that perhaps your approach is the only thing
that might work. There are clearly some folks that do NOT want a
solution to the OT noise.

>> What they need is an easy-as-possible alternative mailing list. The
>> bikeshed forum alternative is NOT good - javascript, ads, and way
>> too much other googleness. I am amazed that, with all the tech
>> folks here, SOMEONE could not start a 'real' mailing list something
>> like UB-OT, or if it needs more obfuscation, UBOT.
>>

> Anyone can setup a mailing list if they want. You almost certainly
> wont get approval for an offtopic one hosted on lists.ubuntu.com,
> but anywhere else, go for it.

Agreed that it should not be part of ubuntu. If I currently had the
ability, it would already be available.

>> Is there NOBODY here willing to set up such a 'real' mailing list?
>> I would think that with all the technical capabilities here, we
>> would already have such a MAILING LIST.
>>

> Many are technically capable. It's whether they want the headache of
> running it. Honestly talking to some of the people on this list is
> mentally and emotionally _exhausting_.

That is quite clear - thank you very much for your patience.

> I don't envy someone running an entirely offtopic list.

If it's really a no-holds-barred list, maybe it's easier. :-) Just let
folks be as nasty as they want to be - as they certainly will. That is
often a self-limiting process, and the list will fade if it is really
bad.

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Hello Mihamina,

Thursday, September 29, 2011, 8:40:14 AM, Mihamina wrote:

> On 09/29/2011 06:42 PM, rikona wrote:
>>> Feel free to begin at any time. Give us a shout when you're ready...
>>> > On a less flippant note,
>> On a serious note - if I had the ability to do so, it would already be
>> operational. Can YOU do that for us? It would be much more useful than
>> a flippant answer...


> http://groups.google.com/group/ubuntu-list
> And come on, let's go!

If it were a real mailing list, I'd already be subscribed. A forum?
Forget it... not worth the extra effort compared to a mailing list.
Why not set up a REAL email list instead? I'll be your first
subscriber. :-))

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On 29 September 2011 16:59, rikona <rikona@sonic.net> wrote:
> If it were a real mailing list, I'd already be subscribed. A forum?
> Forget it... not worth the extra effort compared to a mailing list.
> Why not set up a REAL email list instead? I'll be your first
> subscriber. :-))
>

You know you can subscribe/unsubscribe like it was a normal mailing list?

http://groups.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=46606

"To subscribe to a group via email, send an email to
[Groupname]+subscribe@googlegroups.com. For example, if you wanted to
join a group called google-friends, you'd send an email to
google-friends+subscribe@googlegroups.com"

No need to use the web at all. Just drop a mail to
ubuntu-list+subscribe@googlegroups.com or
bikeshed+subscribe@googlegroups.com

Note: I've not tested this.

Al.

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On Thursday, September 29, 2011 8:20:41 am rikona wrote:
> Another approach might be more fruitful. It is evident that there are
> a number of people who really like to post OT stuff. Trying to silence
> these people by moderation is, as we can already see, fraught with
> problems. Giving them a good place to post OT material might solve a
> lot of the problem.

Giving someone something for misbehaving just gets you more misbehaving
people. It is like throwing money at a problem, all you really do is make the
problem larger. It has to grow large enough to use all the money thrown at it.
Had you have starved the problem it would have gone away pretty much on its
own. Best bet is just not to feed the problem.

>
> What they need is an easy-as-possible alternative mailing list. The
> bikeshed forum alternative is NOT good - javascript, ads, and way too
> much other googleness. I am amazed that, with all the tech folks here,
> SOMEONE could not start a 'real' mailing list something like UB-OT, or
> if it needs more obfuscation, UBOT.

There was one once, it was just totally ruined by it users to the point it was
shut down. That is also a real danger here in this list. There are people
who work and I mean work hard at trying to destroy this list like they did the
sounder one. Too bad they don't put as much effort into something constructive
but that seems not an option for any of the world's vandals.

> When that is set up and running, each email in need of moderation
> would give the suggestion to move it to the OT **mailing** list [not
> forum], and include the subscribe info. At that point, any
> continuation could be moderated, since there is a *good* alternative.
>
> Is there NOBODY here willing to set up such a 'real' mailing list? I
> would think that with all the technical capabilities here, we would
> already have such a MAILING LIST.

Because it costs money, time, and effort and you already see the reward for it
is whining people who actually go out of their way to see how may rules they
can break.

> This was done for Mandrake and worked very well. Why not here? This
> issue keeps coming up over, and over, and over...

Yes it does because people ALWAYS feed the trolls. ...as evidenced by these
threads which have hundreds of pure noise replies. This one will become yet
another noisy rant in a matter of minutes. What is there now, six of these
run on threads taking up the resources of this list? ...seems like more every
day.

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Hello Alan,

Thursday, September 29, 2011, 9:01:35 AM, Alan wrote:

> You know you can subscribe/unsubscribe like it was a normal mailing
> list?

I heard that was possible. Tried the usual
bikeshed-subscribe@googlegroups.com - that didn't work.

> http://groups.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=46606

> "To subscribe to a group via email, send an email to
> [Groupname]+subscribe@googlegroups.com.

> No need to use the web at all. Just drop a mail to
> bikeshed+subscribe@googlegroups.com

Aha - as often is the case, the answer is in a forum. :-) Like M$,
Google does things in a different way. :-)

> Note: I've not tested this.

I tried it [with the +], and am now a member. Let's see if I get
messages...

If it works, perhaps we could try to direct the OT flow to the OT
list:

When an OT email arrives, send two replies. (1) says 'my reply will be
on the OT list' and nothing else. This email is sent to the
ubuntu-users list and includes the link to subscribe, to make it as
easy as possible. (2) is the actual reply and goes only to the OT
list. ALL direct replies not to the OT list also get the same
treatment.

If enough people do this consistently, perhaps the OT flow could be
redirected. This is 'moderation' but gives the OT folks another
equally easy place to have OT discussions instead of just banning them
- a more gentle solution.

The list poisoners, whose aim is to degrade this list, will of course
be upset. With this in place, the list poisoners will become more
evident and can then be banned from this list.

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get rid of OT
 

Hello Pastor,

Thursday, September 29, 2011, 10:03:50 AM, Pastor wrote:

> On Thursday, September 29, 2011 8:20:41 am rikona wrote:
>> Another approach might be more fruitful. It is evident that there
>> are a number of people who really like to post OT stuff. Trying to
>> silence these people by moderation is, as we can already see,
>> fraught with problems. Giving them a good place to post OT material
>> might solve a lot of the problem.

> Giving someone something for misbehaving just gets you more
> misbehaving people.

Agreed. The aim is to get them misbehaving somewhere else.

> It is like throwing money at a problem, all you really do is make
> the problem larger. It has to grow large enough to use all the money
> thrown at it.

Yes - we have lots of experience with that problem in the US :-). But
that's very much OT, so no more on this list.

> Had you have starved the problem it would have gone away pretty much
> on its own. Best bet is just not to feed the problem.

Experience has shown that that does not work. Let's try something
different.

>>
>> What they need is an easy-as-possible alternative mailing list. The
>> bikeshed forum alternative is NOT good - javascript, ads, and way
>> too much other googleness. I am amazed that, with all the tech
>> folks here, SOMEONE could not start a 'real' mailing list something
>> like UB-OT, or if it needs more obfuscation, UBOT.

> There was one once, it was just totally ruined by it users to the
> point it was shut down. That is also a real danger here in this
> list.

Agreed.

> There are people who work and I mean work hard at trying to destroy
> this list like they did the sounder one. Too bad they don't put as
> much effort into something constructive but that seems not an option
> for any of the world's vandals.

Yep.

>> When that is set up and running, each email in need of moderation
>> would give the suggestion to move it to the OT **mailing** list [not
>> forum], and include the subscribe info. At that point, any
>> continuation could be moderated, since there is a *good* alternative.
>>
>> Is there NOBODY here willing to set up such a 'real' mailing list? I
>> would think that with all the technical capabilities here, we would
>> already have such a MAILING LIST.

> Because it costs money, time, and effort and you already see the
> reward for it is whining people who actually go out of their way to
> see how may rules they can break.

I'd suspect that a completely unrestricted list might be less trouble
to maintain - no moderation at all. It will likely get VERY ugly, very
fast, but that is often a self limiting process.

>> This was done for Mandrake and worked very well. Why not here? This
>> issue keeps coming up over, and over, and over...

> Yes it does because people ALWAYS feed the trolls.

Because right now, there is no good alternative [maybe], and people
don't redirect folks to someplace else. If we do use moderation, which
seems inevitable, the moderation could shift traffic to an actual OT
list. Might be worth a try, and is MUCH better than getting this quite
useful list shut down.

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On Thu, 29 Sep 2011 08:20:41 -0700
rikona <rikona@sonic.net> wrote:

> The
> bikeshed forum alternative is NOT good - javascript, ads, and way too
> much other googleness.

The bikeshed group comes to me through my mail client. The only time
I've been to the web for bikeshed was when I first signed up. No forum
nastiness, no google nastiness, no ads or javascript are there when
you opt for mail in plain text.

Cybe R. Wizard
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rikona wrote:

Thursday, September 29, 2011, 10:03:50 AM, Pastor wrote:

On Thursday, September 29, 2011 8:20:41 am rikona wrote:

When that is set up and running, each email in need of moderation
would give the suggestion to move it to the OT **mailing** list [not
forum], and include the subscribe info. At that point, any
continuation could be moderated, since there is a *good* alternative.

Is there NOBODY here willing to set up such a 'real' mailing list? I
would think that with all the technical capabilities here, we would
already have such a MAILING LIST.



Because it costs money, time, and effort and you already see the
reward for it is whining people who actually go out of their way to
see how may rules they can break.


I'd suspect that a completely unrestricted list might be less trouble
to maintain - no moderation at all. It will likely get VERY ugly, very
fast, but that is often a self limiting process.


Thick skin and a sense of humor helps with that.


This was done for Mandrake and worked very well. Why not here? This
issue keeps coming up over, and over, and over...



Yes it does because people ALWAYS feed the trolls.


Because right now, there is no good alternative [maybe], and people
don't redirect folks to someplace else. If we do use moderation, which
seems inevitable, the moderation could shift traffic to an actual OT
list. Might be worth a try, and is MUCH better than getting this quite
useful list shut down.



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Hello Cybe,

Thursday, September 29, 2011, 1:00:30 PM, Cybe wrote:

> On Thu, 29 Sep 2011 08:20:41 -0700
> rikona <rikona@sonic.net> wrote:

>> The bikeshed forum alternative is NOT good - javascript, ads, and
>> way too much other googleness.

> The bikeshed group comes to me through my mail client. The only time
> I've been to the web for bikeshed was when I first signed up.

Thanks for the info - just subbed using the '+' instead of the usual
'-' in the email sub add [which didn't work].

> No forum nastiness, no google nastiness, no ads or javascript are
> there when you opt for mail in plain text.

Is that the default, or do you have to set that on the forum, after
signing up?

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