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Old 09-30-2011, 03:47 PM
"Amedee Van Gasse"
 
Default get rid of OT

On Thu, September 29, 2011 21:57, rikona wrote:

> Because right now, there is no good alternative [maybe], and people
> don't redirect folks to someplace else. If we do use moderation, which
> seems inevitable, the moderation could shift traffic to an actual OT
> list. Might be worth a try, and is MUCH better than getting this quite
> useful list shut down.

That does not work. I have tried it in the past, by manipulating the
reply-to header so that replies went to sounder, but that only worked for
people who replied to my email.


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Old 09-30-2011, 10:29 PM
AV3
 
Default get rid of OT

On Sep/30/2011 11:4356 AM, Amedee Van Gasse wrote:

On Thu, September 29, 2011 19:03, Pastor JW wrote:


There was one once, it was just totally ruined by it users to the point it
was shut down. That is also a real danger here in this list. There are
people who work and I mean work hard at trying to destroy this list like
they did the sounder one. Too bad they don't put as much effort into
something constructive but that seems not an option for any of the
world's vandals.


In short: there are people on this list that are intent on shutting it
down. They do this by wreaking so much havoc that the SABDFL has no other
choice than to shut it down.

That sounds a bit too Machiavellistic...




i couldn't agree more. I myself have contributed OT-messages, but I did
it as a courtesy to those I thought would want to avoid them. I replied
to an OT remark in a message not marked OT, so eliminating messages
marked OT will not eliminate the provocative snide remark in an
otherwise appropriate message. I have never perceived malice toward the
group in any OT thread or remark.






Yes it does because people ALWAYS feed the trolls. ...as evidenced by
these threads which have hundreds of pure noise replies. This one will
become yet another noisy rant in a matter of minutes. What is there
now, six of these run on threads taking up the resources of this list?
...seems like more every day.


It doesn't matter much. If you use proper mail client with threading then
you can just collapse the entire thread and mark it as read.



Right again. I have enjoyed this list and I joined it after tiring of
another where daily bullying and invective poisoned an otherwise helpful
and knowledgeable group. This helpful and knowledgeable group has had
friendly banter, properly marked OT, and I will be sorry to see it go in
the face of a demand for more rigor. The worst offense in this list was
an elderly incompetent, whose bad advice was immediately corrected,
sometimes with understandable impatience. As a beginner, I learned from
his mistakes.







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Old 10-01-2011, 03:24 AM
rikona
 
Default get rid of OT

Hello Oliver,

Friday, September 30, 2011, 5:58:59 AM, Oliver wrote:

> if people think its a waste of time

I think you may be misinterpreting this quite badly. As you can see
from the current discussion, there is LOTS of interest in this topic.
The problem is in how you are forcing people to participate. Most
folks have a life besides sitting in front of the screen JUST when
they MUST be there to participate.

> to show up at the only place that can make decisions about the
> future of this list (again, no canonical involvement here...),

If you want more participation [and it seems as though you really
don't, the way it is structured] then it would be MUCH better to do
the communication via an email list like this. Then, when someone gets
back from a 3 day business trip [the session you insist he must attend
took place while he was half way to Europe on an airplane], that
person can contribute to the discussion. If you do it this way, it
would seem likely that you would get a lot more participation [which
it seems you do not want].

> then it doesn't seem to be worth at all to keep it running ...

Many, including me, are reeeeeeally wanting to keep the list!!! Do you
not get that?

> its probably 30min of your time you have to invest to keep it around
> and show the CC that there is interest and you will never have to
> touch IRC again after that.

IF I have to be at, say the doctors office, at that time, I can't
participate. STOP misinterpreting the motives of people here.

Set up a mailing list for that process...

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Old 10-01-2011, 03:25 AM
rikona
 
Default get rid of OT

Hello Amedee,

Friday, September 30, 2011, 8:31:57 AM, Amedee wrote:

>> This was done for Mandrake and worked very well. Why not here? This
>> issue keeps coming up over, and over, and over...

> What you are asking, is to revive sounder.

No. Sounder was directly associated with Ubuntu, and that is not
appropriate for an OT list that will get in to questionable behavior
and material. The OT list I am proposing is completely separate from
UB and not run by UB.

> Or did I misunderstand you?

Yes, I think you did. Is that more clear, or did the above not address
your thoughts?

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Old 10-01-2011, 03:29 AM
rikona
 
Default get rid of OT

Hello Kevin,

Friday, September 30, 2011, 8:46:24 AM, Kevin wrote:

>> This was done for Mandrake and worked very well. Why not here? This
>> issue keeps coming up over, and over, and over...

> I could set up a list, but there would be a reliability problem. I
> do have an "always on" machine with enough horsepower, but it's
> subject to the usual problems of home systems. If there's a problem
> with that machine I may or may not have the time and resources to
> restore service quickly. There's zero redundancy, and even in the
> best case it may have to wait for delivery of components. In the
> worst case I may be away, or sick, etc.

I understand - I can't either [I don't even have an "always on"
machine - mine is "usually on" :-) ]. I was hoping someone here would
be able to do it.

> That's why I moved my mailing lists to Google Groups. But I can hear
> that at least some people here don't like "googleness".

Actually, I don't like forums. The "googleness" just makes it
significantly worse. But - I was able to get it working as email, and
that's better, so far. When I start getting ads related to things I
discuss, though, I'll be quite pi**ed.

> I can handle the moderation chores, but it ought to have a more
> reliable server than I can provide.

Agreed...

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Old 10-01-2011, 03:30 AM
rikona
 
Default get rid of OT

Hello Amedee,

Friday, September 30, 2011, 8:47:51 AM, Amedee wrote:

> On Thu, September 29, 2011 21:57, rikona wrote:

>> Because right now, there is no good alternative [maybe], and people
>> don't redirect folks to someplace else. If we do use moderation,
>> which seems inevitable, the moderation could shift traffic to an
>> actual OT list. Might be worth a try, and is MUCH better than
>> getting this quite useful list shut down.

> That does not work. I have tried it in the past, by manipulating the
> reply-to header so that replies went to sounder, but that only
> worked for people who replied to my email.

What I was proposing is to change all the headers - no reference to
this list all refs to the OT list. Ideally, this would be done by list
members, not moderators, but could be done by moderators too.

To review a bit - when an OT email arrives, send TWO replies.

(1) says 'my reply will be on the OT list' and nothing else. This
email is sent to the ubuntu-users list and includes the link to
subscribe, to make it as easy as possible to go there.

(2) is the actual reply and goes only to the OT list.

ALL direct replies not to the OT list also get the same treatment.

Perhaps a script guru could automate this a bit. :-) That would help
all of us a LOT.

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Old 10-02-2011, 02:05 PM
"Amedee Van Gasse"
 
Default get rid of OT

On 1/10/2011 3:30, rikona wrote: Hello
Amedee, Friday, September 30, 2011, 8:47:51 AM, Amedee
wrote: On Thu, September 29, 2011
21:57, rikona wrote:
Because right now, there is no good alternative
[maybe], and people don't redirect folks to someplace
else. If we do use moderation, which seems inevitable,
the moderation could shift traffic to an actual OT
list. Might be worth a try, and is MUCH better than
getting this quite useful list shut down.
That does not work. I have
tried it in the past, by manipulating the reply-to
header so that replies went to sounder, but that only
worked for people who replied to my email.
What I was proposing is to change all the headers -
no reference to this list all refs to the OT list.
Ideally, this would be done by list members, not
moderators, but could be done by moderators too.
When the email is already sent, it is too late to
change the headers.
To review a bit - when an OT email arrives, send TWO replies.
(1) says 'my reply will be on the OT list' and nothing else.
This email is sent to the ubuntu-users list and includes the
link to subscribe, to make it as easy as possible to go there.
That's just as bad as spam, in my opinion.
(2) is the actual reply and goes only to the OT list.
Which will be ignored. See also: bikeshed.
ALL direct replies not to the OT list also get the same
treatment. Perhaps a script guru could automate this a bit.
:-) That would help all of us a LOT. I can't see
how you would gain access to >5K mailboxes when an OT mail
has already been sent.




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Old 10-02-2011, 06:22 PM
rikona
 
Default get rid of OT

Hello Amedee,

Your email came sort of jumbled together - I will try to sort it, but
let me know if I didn't get it right. I'll try to reply after what I
think you said in your last email.

Sunday, October 2, 2011, 7:05:39 AM, Amedee wrote:

> On 1/10/2011 3:30, rikona wrote: Hello
> Amedee, Friday, September 30, 2011, 8:47:51 AM, Amedee
> wrote: On Thu, September 29, 2011
> 21:57, rikona wrote:
> Because right now, there is no good alternative
> [maybe], and people don't redirect folks to someplace
> else. If we do use moderation, which seems inevitable,
> the moderation could shift traffic to an actual OT
> list. Might be worth a try, and is MUCH better than
> getting this quite useful list shut down.
> That does not work. I have
> tried it in the past, by manipulating the reply-to
> header so that replies went to sounder, but that only
> worked for people who replied to my email.
> What I was proposing is to change all the headers -
> no reference to this list all refs to the OT list.
> Ideally, this would be done by list members, not
> moderators, but could be done by moderators too.
> When the email is already sent, it is too late to
> change the headers.

We still seem to be thinking about this in different ways re when, how
and who changes headers.

> To review a bit - when an OT email arrives, send TWO replies.
> (1) says 'my reply will be on the OT list' and nothing else.
> This email is sent to the ubuntu-users list and includes the
> link to subscribe, to make it as easy as possible to go there.
> That's just as bad as spam, in my opinion.

It is putting the sender on notice that the topic should be moved to
the other list. For everyone else it is spam, of a sort.

> (2) is the actual reply and goes only to the OT list.
> Which will be ignored. See also: bikeshed.

If the list is moderated, as was suggested, and the topic is NOT moved
to the other list, then folks sending *multiple* replies on the same
OT topic can be 'moderated'. If the list IS moderated, this is a
gentler way of doing it compared to just banning someone. The idea is
to have another place to continue OT discussions. Bikeshed is a flop -
few use it because they can easily continue OT stuff here - and, there
is practically no traffic there. Right now, it does not offer much to
anyone, so nobody joins.

If the above were done a number of times, more people would move to
the OT list. When the OT list is better populated, with multiple
ongoing discussions, it will be better accepted as a place to go for
OT discussions. With enough members, it will generate discussions on
its own.

This was done with Mandrake and WORKED WELL. Their OT list has, in
fact, outlasted them, and still has a fair amount of traffic. :-)

The above is a *process*, not an all-in-one technical solution.

It's a bit like the 'don't top post' messages. Those are also spam, by
your definition. What they do is try to get the sender to do something
different. The above process is somewhat similar.

> ALL direct replies not to the OT list also get the same
> treatment. Perhaps a script guru could automate this a bit.
> :-) That would help all of us a LOT. I can't see
> how you would gain access to >5K mailboxes when an OT mail
> has already been sent.

You don't need to do that. Again we are thinking about this in
different ways. When we are thinking the same way, then we can discuss
what the script might do to help.

I hope I got the de-jumble right. :-)

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Old 10-03-2011, 08:41 AM
Patton Echols
 
Default get rid of OT

On 09/29/2011 08:57 AM, rikona wrote:


Hmmm... originally I had reservations about heavy policing, but did
not want to add to the already loud OT noise. But, in posting a
somewhat different solution, and immediately getting a flippant answer
or sarcasm, I can see that perhaps your approach is the only thing
that might work. There are clearly some folks that do NOT want a
solution to the OT noise.



This entire discussion presupposes that ubuntu-users is broken and must
be fixed. While there are certainly threads that go spiraling out of
control, even the most verbal on those threads behave well by staying in
the thread, making it easy to ignore.


If there are 5,000 subscribers, (five THOUSAND?!?) is the list really
broken? I find it hard to belive that so many people would stay
subscribed to a list that was all noise with no worthwhile signal.



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Old 10-03-2011, 01:35 PM
Billie Walsh
 
Default get rid of OT

On 10/03/2011 03:41 AM, Patton Echols wrote:

On 09/29/2011 08:57 AM, rikona wrote:


Hmmm... originally I had reservations about heavy policing, but did
not want to add to the already loud OT noise. But, in posting a
somewhat different solution, and immediately getting a flippant answer
or sarcasm, I can see that perhaps your approach is the only thing
that might work. There are clearly some folks that do NOT want a
solution to the OT noise.



This entire discussion presupposes that ubuntu-users is broken and must
be fixed. While there are certainly threads that go spiraling out of
control, even the most verbal on those threads behave well by staying in
the thread, making it easy to ignore.

If there are 5,000 subscribers, (five THOUSAND?!?) is the list really
broken? I find it hard to belive that so many people would stay
subscribed to a list that was all noise with no worthwhile signal.




I don't believe the list is "broken". I seldom post, except a bit more
lately, but have learned a lot from just reading. I find the <Delete>
button to come in VERY handy for most of the traffic though.


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Liberty is a well-armed lamb." - Benjamin Franklin -


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