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Old 09-29-2011, 09:18 PM
"Cybe R. Wizard"
 
Default get rid of OT

On Thu, 29 Sep 2011 14:02:36 -0700
rikona <rikona@sonic.net> wrote:

> > No forum nastiness, no google nastiness, no ads or javascript are
> > there when you opt for mail in plain text.
>
> Is that the default, or do you have to set that on the forum, after
> signing up?

To the best of my knowledge it is default /if/ you opt for plain test
mail. Opt for HTMaiL and I've no idea what may happen.

Cybe R. Wizard
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Old 09-29-2011, 09:23 PM
Robert Holtzman
 
Default get rid of OT

On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 05:01:35PM +0100, Alan Pope wrote:
> On 29 September 2011 16:59, rikona <rikona@sonic.net> wrote:
> > If it were a real mailing list, I'd already be subscribed. A forum?
> > Forget it... not worth the extra effort compared to a mailing list.
> > Why not set up a REAL email list instead? I'll be your first
> > subscriber. :-))
> >
>
> You know you can subscribe/unsubscribe like it was a normal mailing list?
>
> http://groups.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=46606
>
> "To subscribe to a group via email, send an email to
> [Groupname]+subscribe@googlegroups.com. For example, if you wanted to
> join a group called google-friends, you'd send an email to
> google-friends+subscribe@googlegroups.com"
>
> No need to use the web at all. Just drop a mail to
> ubuntu-list+subscribe@googlegroups.com or
> bikeshed+subscribe@googlegroups.com
>
> Note: I've not tested this.

I have and it works like a charm. I read it with Mutt or Alpine. Been on
it for Sept 9, 2009. Not sure why the people who bitch about ads, etc
don't dig a little deeper.

--
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check the price of the beer.
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Old 09-30-2011, 12:28 PM
Liam Proven
 
Default get rid of OT

On 29 September 2011 16:33, Alan Pope <alan@popey.com> wrote:
>
> Well we could have a policy of "no OT" on the list, and police it
> hard. People who transgress get warnings then mute/removal from the
> list. It would certainly focus people's attention (and invite
> censorship claims from some of the more militant members of the list).

If that is what it takes to save the list from the death penalty, yes.
For my money, it would make the list less appealing to use.

> Many are technically capable. It's whether they want the headache of
> running it. Honestly talking to some of the people on this list is
> mentally and emotionally _exhausting_. I don't envy someone running an
> entirely offtopic list.

It is important to remember, Alan, that this is *your* perception.
Others do not share it. I have pointed this out to you in the past, I
am sure; you seem to have forgotten.

Personally, as a very long-time veteran of mailing lists and Internet
communities, I find the complete reverse.

I actively enjoy the banter and sociably chatty nature of the list. I
dislike web fora with a passion - I find them horrible to use, and
yes, this strongly includes Ubuntu's ones - and find IRC to be vastly
too time-consuming for any regular use.

I find it much *more* tiring to have to try to remember and stick to a
CoC and censor myself - to remember /not/ to be chatty, *not* to stray
offtopic, *not* to use sarcasm and irony.

What you find tiring is what other people find lively and engaging.
What you can't cope with is *why I am here*. What you find
businesslike and efficient - IRC, for example, as you repeatedly
invite us to participate in IRC meetings - is to others a tiresome,
irritating waste of time.

Always remember this. Your preferences are fine. I am not saying they
are wrong in any way. But remember that they are just yours, only
yours, and others do not share them.

My sole involvement with the Ubuntu is on the mailing lists. If the
mailing lists close, I and many others will leave the Ubuntu community
altogether. I am not using web fora instead, nor am I switching to
IRC.

And lest you think it is just me, here are some examples of why others
feel similarly.

Email is offline.

You can take your time to read and think about what is posted. This is
ideal for blind users and essential for deaf-blind users who are using
Braille displays, which are relatively slow.

IRC can be almost unusable for such people; web fora hard to navigate.

Email replies can be composed offline in your own time. This is ideal
for people with motor difficulties, such as cerebral palsy or
quadriplegia, who can only enter text very slowly. Again, IRC is
unusable for such people.

For busy people, email is threaded, making it fast and efficient to
follow conversations. Web fora have no threading; each conversation is
flat, meaning we must wade through dozens of pages of chatter to find
the information we need.

I am on some 80-odd mailing lists. I do not have the time to go
through that many different websites in a day, seeing what's new, but
on mailing lists, they are all in my email client - no matter if I am
on my PC, my Mac or my phone.

And because email is offline, I can do this when travelling and so on
when I don't have Internet connectivity. You can't do that with IRC or
fora.

If the mailing lists close, Ubuntu will alienate many of its users...
and if the character of them is substantially changed, you will also
lose participants.

There's no reason the Ubuntu community should care about losing me.
But it *should* care about annoying and alienating many of its users
and community members. And that's what it is doing, right now, both
with the closure of Sounder, the threatened closure of Ubuntu-Users,
and indeed with the imposition of Unity.

Be careful what you wish for. You might just get it.


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Old 09-30-2011, 12:58 PM
Oliver Grawert
 
Default get rid of OT

hi,
Am Freitag, den 30.09.2011, 13:28 +0100 schrieb Liam Proven:
> What you find tiring is what other people find lively and engaging.
> What you can't cope with is *why I am here*. What you find
> businesslike and efficient - IRC, for example, as you repeatedly
> invite us to participate in IRC meetings - is to others a tiresome,
> irritating waste of time.

Alan didn't ever say you should switch to IRC instead of using the list,
it is simply how the ubuntu governance works (and that infrastructure
was *not* put in place by canonical at all). if people think its a waste
of time to show up at the only place that can make decisions about the
future of this list (again, no canonical involvement here...), then it
doesn't seem to be worth at all to keep it running ... its probably
30min of your time you have to invest to keep it around and show the CC
that there is interest and you will never have to touch IRC again after
that.

ciao
oli


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Old 09-30-2011, 01:34 PM
Liam Proven
 
Default get rid of OT

On 30 September 2011 13:58, Oliver Grawert <ogra@ubuntu.com> wrote:
> hi,
> Am Freitag, den 30.09.2011, 13:28 +0100 schrieb Liam Proven:
>> What you find tiring is what other people find lively and engaging.
>> What you can't cope with is *why I am here*. What you find
>> businesslike and efficient - IRC, for example, as you repeatedly
>> invite us to participate in IRC meetings - is to others a tiresome,
>> irritating waste of time.
>
> Alan didn't ever say you should switch to IRC instead of using the list,

I am not suggesting that it is solely his personal POV. It is merely
that he seems to be the closest thing that we have to a regular
official presence on this list.

> it is simply how the ubuntu governance works (and that infrastructure
> was *not* put in place by canonical at all)

Oh? Do tell?

> if people think its a waste
> of time to show up at the only place that can make decisions about the
> future of this list (again, no canonical involvement here...),

If that /is/ the only place, then the governance is broken.

> then it
> doesn't seem to be worth at all to keep it running ...

If I can't or won't attend, then I hope that others can or will.

> its probably
> 30min of your time you have to invest to keep it around and show the CC
> that there is interest and you will never have to touch IRC again after
> that.

Until the next time...

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Old 09-30-2011, 02:25 PM
Oliver Grawert
 
Default get rid of OT

hi,
Am Freitag, den 30.09.2011, 14:34 +0100 schrieb Liam Proven:

> > it is simply how the ubuntu governance works (and that infrastructure
> > was *not* put in place by canonical at all)
>
> Oh? Do tell?
as paul slanden stated in another mail to this list (and i happen to
remember the same) the CC as well as the first draft of the CoC were a
creation of benjamin mako hill before he started working for a company
that back then was still called no-name-yet.com and consisted of a
handfull of people in marks living room. the actual founding of
canonical happened slightly later.

and as paul i can only point to mako for more details

ciao
oli


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Old 09-30-2011, 02:32 PM
Liam Proven
 
Default get rid of OT

On 30 September 2011 15:25, Oliver Grawert <ogra@ubuntu.com> wrote:
> hi,
> Am Freitag, den 30.09.2011, 14:34 +0100 schrieb Liam Proven:
>
>> > it is simply how the ubuntu governance works (and that infrastructure
>> > was *not* put in place by canonical at all)
>>
>> Oh? Do tell?
> as paul slanden stated in another mail to this list (and i happen to
> remember the same) the CC as well as the first draft of the CoC were a
> creation of benjamin mako hill before he started working for a company
> that back then was still called no-name-yet.com and consisted of a
> handfull of people in marks living room. the actual founding of
> canonical happened slightly later.

Oh I see! Right! :¬)

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Old 09-30-2011, 03:31 PM
"Amedee Van Gasse"
 
Default get rid of OT

On Thu, September 29, 2011 17:20, rikona wrote:
> Another approach might be more fruitful. It is evident that there are
> a number of people who really like to post OT stuff. Trying to silence
> these people by moderation is, as we can already see, fraught with
> problems. Giving them a good place to post OT material might solve a
> lot of the problem.
>
> What they need is an easy-as-possible alternative mailing list. The
> bikeshed forum alternative is NOT good - javascript, ads, and way too
> much other googleness. I am amazed that, with all the tech folks here,
> SOMEONE could not start a 'real' mailing list something like UB-OT, or
> if it needs more obfuscation, UBOT.
>
> When that is set up and running, each email in need of moderation
> would give the suggestion to move it to the OT **mailing** list [not
> forum], and include the subscribe info. At that point, any
> continuation could be moderated, since there is a *good* alternative.
>
> Is there NOBODY here willing to set up such a 'real' mailing list? I
> would think that with all the technical capabilities here, we would
> already have such a MAILING LIST.
>
> This was done for Mandrake and worked very well. Why not here? This
> issue keeps coming up over, and over, and over...

What you are asking, is to revive sounder.
Or did I misunderstand you?


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Old 09-30-2011, 03:43 PM
"Amedee Van Gasse"
 
Default get rid of OT

On Thu, September 29, 2011 19:03, Pastor JW wrote:

> There was one once, it was just totally ruined by it users to the point it
> was shut down. That is also a real danger here in this list. There are
> people who work and I mean work hard at trying to destroy this list like
> they did the sounder one. Too bad they don't put as much effort into
> something constructive but that seems not an option for any of the
> world's vandals.

In short: there are people on this list that are intent on shutting it
down. They do this by wreaking so much havoc that the SABDFL has no other
choice than to shut it down.

That sounds a bit too Machiavellistic...


> Yes it does because people ALWAYS feed the trolls. ...as evidenced by
> these threads which have hundreds of pure noise replies. This one will
> become yet another noisy rant in a matter of minutes. What is there
> now, six of these run on threads taking up the resources of this list?
> ...seems like more every day.

It doesn't matter much. If you use proper mail client with threading then
you can just collapse the entire thread and mark it as read.


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Old 09-30-2011, 03:46 PM
"Kevin O'Gorman"
 
Default get rid of OT

On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 8:20 AM, rikona <rikona@sonic.net> wrote:

Another approach might be more fruitful. It is evident that there are

a number of people who really like to post OT stuff. Trying to silence

these people by moderation is, as we can already see, fraught with

problems. Giving them a good place to post OT material might solve a

lot of the problem.



What they need is an easy-as-possible alternative mailing list. The

bikeshed forum alternative is NOT good - _javascript_, ads, and way too

much other googleness. I am amazed that, with all the tech folks here,

SOMEONE could not start a 'real' mailing list something like UB-OT, or

if it needs more obfuscation, UBOT.



When that is set up and running, each email in need of moderation

would give the suggestion to move it to the OT **mailing** list [not

forum], and include the subscribe info. At that point, any

continuation could be moderated, since there is a *good* alternative.



Is there NOBODY here willing to set up such a 'real' mailing list? I

would think that with all the technical capabilities here, we would

already have such a MAILING LIST.



This was done for Mandrake and worked very well. Why not here? This

issue keeps coming up over, and over, and over...


**
I could set up a list, but there would be a reliability problem.* I do have an
"always on" machine with enough horsepower, but it's subject to the usual
problems of home systems.* If there's a problem with that machine I may

or may not have the time and resources to restore service quickly.* There's
zero redundancy, and even in the best case it may have to wait for delivery
of components. In the worst case I may be away, or sick, etc.


That's why I moved my mailing lists to Google Groups.* But I can hear that
at least some people here don't like "googleness".

I can handle the moderation chores, but it ought to have a more reliable server

than I can provide.

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