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"Cybe R. Wizard" 09-28-2011 02:39 PM

Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list - clarifications
 
On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 15:47:26 +0200
Oliver Grawert <ogra@ubuntu.com> wrote:

> > And all this time people were made to believe that their interests
> > were being looked after and promoted by Canonical's "Community
> > Council" when 'they' were plotting all the time to shutdown this
> > venue.
> people were also asked to participate in the council meetings about
> the issues with sounder... iirc only noop and amendee showed up at the
> meeting where sounder shutdown was actually discussed, even though
> there was a notification mail to this list back then.

Really? That's very misleading and possibly intentionally. What about
this from Samuel Thurston (full backtrack available from the Sounder
archives):

Quoted Sounder mail follows:
----------
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 9:47 PM, Paul Sladen <ubuntu@paul.sladen.org>
wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2011, Samuel Thurston wrote:
>> that this item would be brought up at the next community meeting
>
> This was not my understanding. *Of course you are free as anyone else
> to bring a topic to the Ubuntu Community Council: *(it's a wiki)

I have already reposted the mail where pope confirmed that moving the
timeslot would put it at may 3. I have not reposted the link where he
said he would move the time to 2100, but he did in fact say he was
going to do it.

>
> *https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
>
>> I say this because I feel
>
> Your personal feelings are no excuse for making unfounded, presumptive
> or baseless statements towards others. *Please keep it to the facts.

My statements are well founded, documented and have a basis in
reality. You seem to disagree but only on the assumption that I
should not have taken pope on his word.

>
> The transcript of the Ubuntu Community Council IRC meeting shows the
> lengths to which one particular member of the CC went to raise the
> suggestion of carrying the item over:

He didn't suggest carrying the item over, he suggested it be discussed
at BOTH times rather than the time he said he intended to move it to.
Which, as we have been told (repeatedly), the CC can't be bothered to
do.

>
> *http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/04/19/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t12:18
>
>> I call foul on the entire CC.
>
> Perhaps I've missed your IRC nickname in the IRC transcript. *Was
> there a point that you had raised during the discussion and which you
> feel was ignored or overlooked?
>

I was misled about the time of the meeting. Had I known that this
would be the one and only discussion time I would have absolutely been
there.... I've already invested an unreasonable amount of time in
researching the character of the list's content and getting a feel for
how it should be handled, not to show up.

Now you can say "oh you can look at the wiki" and I can say to you, if
someone tells me something that is not true, and I fail to go and look
it up elsewhere to confirm, does that mean the person did not mislead
me in the first place?

Perhaps you think I should believe that two incorrect statements of
date were "accidentally" posted to the list, by the person motioning
for its shutting at the CC?

And maybe I'm just being paranoid that the outline I specifically
asked Pope to present was not presented, but that one of my statements
was twisted to seem in support of closing the list?
----------
End quoted Sounder mail

Will we be similarly mislead about the closing of -users? I wouldn't
be at all surprised.

Cybe R. Wizard
--
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"Cybe R. Wizard" 09-28-2011 03:00 PM

Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list - clarifications
 
On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 14:47:21 +0100
Alan Pope <alan@popey.com> wrote:

> On 28 September 2011 14:41, Cybe R. Wizard
> <cyber_wizard@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > Otherwise all these decisions would be made in the open instead of
> > 'transparently' which means out of sight.
>
> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/20/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
>
> Specifically:-
>
> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/20/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t11:10

Log files are /NOT/ prior notification any more than having the meeting
to ditch Sounder was in May. You should (and, I suspect, do) know this
very well from the Sounder debacle.

Quoted Sounder mail follows:
----------
From: Samuel Thurston <sam.thurston@gmail.com>
To: Mike Basinger <mike.basinger@ubuntu.com>
Cc: Alan Pope <alan@popey.com>, The Sounder <sounder@lists.ubuntu.com>
Subject: Re: An open letter to Alan Pope
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 01:25:10 -0500

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Mike Basinger
<mike.basinger@ubuntu.com> wrote:
> On Apr 19, 2011, at 7:43 PM, Samuel Thurston wrote:
>
>> Dear Mr Pope and the rest of the Ubuntu Community Council,
>>
>> Alan, you have displayed your true colors today. *After assuring me
>> that this item would be brought up at the next community meeting
>> rather than today's, I decided to disregard the inflammatory rhetoric
>> about your character, and put my trust in you as a representative of
>> the community.
>>
>
> Once again, this was a decision of a quorum for Community Council
> members not an sole undertaking by Mr. Pope.

Pope posted the item on the agenda. Pope assured those of us who
questioned him on it that he would be a fair and objective presenter.
He also stated that he would be moving the item to 2100 UTC on May
3rd.

I don't begrudge Alan for the votes cast by other CC members. I
begrudge him for failing to deliver on promises he made to the list.

>
>> That trust was obviously misplaced.
>>
>> I say this because I feel that on top of you misleading me (and
>> others) about the time of the meeting, you also chose to deliberately
>> mischarachterize a number of my statements and selectively present
>> the evidence I so exhaustively prepared, so as to bolster your own
>> opinion that the list should be closed.
>
> As I said in a previous email, the CC can not discuss a topic
> multiple times just to make it convenient for every time zone. I got
> up at 5am to discuss to attend the IRC meeting, surely someone from
> the 350+ member on the list could have attended to advocate for the
> Sounder community.

I'm not asking for multiple hearings. I was told the item would be
moved to May 3rd and that is what I set on my calendar.

>
>> I call foul. *I call foul on the entire CC. *Because if you voted to
>> close the list you did so because it was your opinion that it should
>> be shut regardless of community input and evidence to the contrary OR
>> because you neglected to do your duty and investigate the information
>> put forth by Mr. Pope (he was kind enough to link to original
>> messages while quoting out of context, isn't that nice?)
>>
>> Whether it be negligence or malfeasance, I stand disappointed in
>> your service.
>
> I disappointed in the list for never starting a thread to discuss
> between it members *this problem as perhaps giving the CC other
> options to consider. *As far I can tell no one start this discussion
> till after the CC decided to close the list.

This is part of my difficulty right now... should I be upset with Alan
for claiming he would convey this information? Or with the other CC
members voting to close the list for not bothering to follow the links
he painstakingly embedded in his proposal to see if they actually said
what he thought they were saying?

the start of a HUGE thread where discussion of the condition of the
list takes place:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016351.html

In which I post an exhaustive study of a month's worth of list traffic
and conclude that it is *mostly* civil, topical and worthwhile.
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016375.html

In which I lay out a clear and concise argument against closure of the
list, and alternative proposals should they be deemed necessary.
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016382.html

In that thread, a large number of people who are readers more
frequently than posters, came out to voice their support of the list.

And a separate thread
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016396.html
where 10 or so of the 30-odd regular posters to the list express what
they value about the list... nothing that can't be maintained beyond
moderation.

So.... Where exactly is your disappointment at the lists' responses?
A lot of these linked posts are my own... but look at the thread view
in the archives. Dozens of people chiming in and offering exactly the
sort of examination and proposal that you're claiming we didn't do.
The reason that you don't know about it is that

1) Alan told us he would present this information to the CC
2) Alan told us the incorrect date for the CC meeting not once but
twice.

>
>> Due to this misconduct, and other recent flagrant missteps by the
>> Ubuntu community, I will be looking elsewhere for my Linux needs. *I
>> have no need for a community in which someone so dishonest and
>> underhanded gains a respected and representative status.
>
> That is your decision, and I wish you well in your further OSS/Linux
> endeavors.
----------
End quoted Sounder mail

That seems pretty clear and the links are still valid (for now). I
notice that you didn't reply to defend or deny your actions on that day.

The very next day, only eleven days after the announcement that
it /might/ be closed, the Sounder list was closed down.

Some members were caught completely by surprise due to life
interfering and not being able to access Sounder all that often.
The time frame alone makes it look like a put-up job.

Cybe R. Wizard
--
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Winduhs

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Alan Pope 09-28-2011 03:14 PM

Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list - clarifications
 
On 28 September 2011 15:39, Cybe R. Wizard <cyber_wizard@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Really? *That's very misleading and possibly intentionally. *What about
> this from Samuel Thurston (full backtrack available from the Sounder
> archives):
>

<snip>

Right, this comes up over and over. I did not deliberately mislead
Samuel. I didn't deliberate move the meeting to screw the sounder guys
over. I give incorrect dates deliberately at any time. I screwed up
the wiki page and corrected it as soon as I knew and sent an
announcement out immediately. Samuel asked _if_ the item is bumped to
21:00 would it be discussed at the later meeting. _NOBODY_ actually
requested that the meeting be moved.

Here's what actually happened.



Note that the CC meetings will now be regularly at:

21:00 UTC, 1st Tuesday of the month
11:00 UTC, 3rd Tuesday of the month


Sequence of events.

6th April 18:18

I edit CommunityCouncilAgenda page to update the date of next meeting
from 5th April to 18th April at 21:00.

Note: This is incorrect because 18th is a Monday, and the CC meets on Tuesday.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda?action=diff&rev2=1450&rev1= 1449

6th April 18:19

I edit CommunityCouncilAgenda to correct the date of the next meeting
from 18th April to 17th April

Note: This is also incorrect.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda?action=diff&rev2=1451&rev1= 1450

7th April 20:56

I edit CommunityCouncilAgenda to add an agenda item for dissussing the
shutdown of sounder

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda?action=diff&rev2=1452&rev1= 1451

8th April 09:17

I mail the list to say I've added the agenda item and would like to
discuss at the next CC meeting

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016351.html

8th April 23:35

I edit CommunityCouncilAgenda and again correct the date to 19th April
because it's wrong, we only meet on Tuesdays.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda?action=diff&rev2=1453&rev1= 1452

8th April 23:37

I mail the list to alert them that it's the 19th April at 11:00

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016388.html


8th April 23:47

I mail the list to offer an alternative of the 21:00 meeting which
would happen two weeks later.

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016392.html


11th April 21:26

Samuel Thurston mails the list asking "if the item is indeed bumped to
21:00 UTC, then it will be discussed
at the meeting May 3 instead of April 19.. is this correct?"

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016432.html

11th April 21:34

I reply "yes that's right" to the direct question from Samuel.

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016433.html


_Nobody_ bumped the item. Nobody discussed bumping it any further that
I can see on the list.


19th April 11:00 UTC (logs in BST [UTC+1])

Ubuntu Community Council Meeting starts. Attendees from the CC are
Mark Shuttleworth (Canonical), Daniel Holbach (Canonical), Mark
Basinger (Community), Alan Pope (Community).
I point out at 12:18 and 12:19 that we discuss this at both meetings
Mark clearly points out that this is not required and that our
decision can be "challenged and reviewed by email".
At 12:24 Daniel starts a vote about shutting down sounder. One
erroneous voter aside, all four members of the CC present vote in
favour.



Al.

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"Amedee Van Gasse" 09-28-2011 03:15 PM

Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list - clarifications
 
On Wed, September 28, 2011 15:47, Oliver Grawert wrote:
> hi,
> Am Mittwoch, den 28.09.2011, 23:20 +1000 schrieb Basil Chupin:

>> ".....and on at least two occasions on the past 2 years...".
>>
>> And all this time people were made to believe that their interests were
>> being looked after and promoted by Canonical's "Community Council" when
>> 'they' were plotting all the time to shutdown this venue.
> people were also asked to participate in the council meetings about the
> issues with sounder... iirc only noop and amendee showed up at the
> meeting where sounder shutdown was actually discussed, even though there
> was a notification mail to this list back then.

The name is "Amedee", thank you.

There was some confusion in the notification mail, because the issue would
be presented on two separate meetings, and I could only attend the second.
Apparently the decision was already made on the first meeting, and it was
presented as a final decision, but that wasn't entirely true. NoOp and
myself were still able to present our arguments at the second meeting. I
was really disappointed that nobody else bothered. I worked really, really
hard to be able to attend that meeting. It was only after the second
meeting, after NoOp and myself were heard and our concerns were answered,
that the decision to close sounder was made really, really final.

You can find all of this in the IRC logs.


You may also call yourselves very lucky that I didn't nominate myself,
because
a) I really don't have the time to do it good.
b) I was a forum admin for a couple of years (JanC can confirm) and I got
fed up with all the whining.

--
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"Amedee Van Gasse" 09-28-2011 03:20 PM

Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list - clarifications
 
On Wed, September 28, 2011 17:14, Alan Pope wrote:
> On 28 September 2011 15:39, Cybe R. Wizard <cyber_wizard@mindspring.com>
> wrote:
>> Really? *That's very misleading and possibly intentionally. *What about
>> this from Samuel Thurston (full backtrack available from the Sounder
>> archives):
>>
>
> <snip>
>
> Right, this comes up over and over. I did not deliberately mislead
> Samuel. I didn't deliberate move the meeting to screw the sounder guys
> over. I give incorrect dates deliberately at any time. I screwed up
> the wiki page and corrected it as soon as I knew and sent an
> announcement out immediately. Samuel asked _if_ the item is bumped to
> 21:00 would it be discussed at the later meeting. _NOBODY_ actually
> requested that the meeting be moved.
>
> Here's what actually happened.

Thanks Al.

Could you also reconstruct the timeline for the second meeting, to prove
or disprove that NoOp and myself were the only two persons who bothered? I
feel that NoOp and myself deserve a bit more respect. I feel that some
people are misrepresenting the facts. I was there, they weren't.

--
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Alan Pope 09-28-2011 03:27 PM

Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list - clarifications
 
On 28 September 2011 16:14, Alan Pope <alan@popey.com> wrote:
> I give incorrect dates deliberately at any time.

Bah! That should of course say " I didn't give incorrect dates
deliberately at any time."

Al.

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"Cybe R. Wizard" 09-28-2011 04:20 PM

Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list - clarifications
 
On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 16:27:49 +0100
Alan Pope <alan@popey.com> wrote:

> On 28 September 2011 16:14, Alan Pope <alan@popey.com> wrote:
> > I give incorrect dates deliberately at any time.
>
> Bah! That should of course say " I didn't give incorrect dates
> deliberately at any time."
>
> Al.
>
And, realizing that, and being the inherently nice guy that I am, I
didn't call you on it or this rather disingenuous bit:
----------
11th April 21:26

Samuel Thurston mails the list asking "if the item is indeed bumped to
21:00 UTC, then it will be discussed
at the meeting May 3 instead of April 19.. is this correct?"

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016432.html

11th April 21:34

I reply "yes that's right" to the direct question from Samuel.

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016433.html


_Nobody_ bumped the item. Nobody discussed bumping it any further that
I can see on the list.
----------

The implied intent was pretty clear, Alan. Sam was asking if the
change of meeting time changed the date of meeting. You replied, "Yes."
At the time I, Sam and likely many more took your, "yes," to mean that
the meeting /had/ already been bumped to the later date.

But I'm sure that you are well aware of it and only fall back on
the 'letter of the law' argument to save face.

I might do the same in similar circumstance.

Cybe R. Wizard
--
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Winduhs

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Oliver Grawert 09-28-2011 04:22 PM

Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list - clarifications
 
hi,
Am Mittwoch, den 28.09.2011, 17:20 +0200 schrieb Amedee Van Gasse:

> Could you also reconstruct the timeline for the second meeting, to prove
> or disprove that NoOp and myself were the only two persons who bothered? I
> feel that NoOp and myself deserve a bit more respect. I feel that some
> people are misrepresenting the facts. I was there, they weren't.
i was there as well and i saw you and noop (as i mentioned above) ...
and there was a mail to this list in advance mentioning the upcoming CC
meeting and that sounder would be brought up there ...

ciao
oli


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Alan Pope 09-28-2011 04:29 PM

Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list - clarifications
 
On 28 September 2011 17:20, Cybe R. Wizard <cyber_wizard@mindspring.com> wrote:
> The implied intent was pretty clear, Alan. *Sam was asking if the
> change of meeting time changed the date of meeting. *You replied, "Yes."
> At the time I, Sam and likely many more took your, "yes," to mean that
> the meeting /had/ already been bumped to the later date.
>

Lack of clarity on both sides then. I'm not taking responsibility for
absolutely nobody looking at a wiki page and absolutely nobody turning
up to the meeting. The members of sounder didn't bother so more fool
them for the list being shut down.

> But I'm sure that you are well aware of it and only fall back on
> the 'letter of the law' argument to save face.
>
> I might do the same in similar circumstance.
>

I'm sure we've covered the 1's and 0's of the sounder list to death
now. However feel free to throw another insult back at me if it makes
you feel great to have the last word in the name of being devils
advocate.

Al.

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"Cybe R. Wizard" 09-28-2011 04:39 PM

Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list - clarifications
 
On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 17:29:35 +0100
Alan Pope <alan@popey.com> wrote:

> However feel free to throw another insult back at me

I'm sorry that you feel insulted by human nature. It is my own fault
and failing to have couched it in terms that insult you and for that I
am very sorry.

I hold no animosity toward you, Alan. I think you do and have done the
best you can with what you have been given IRT this list, that list and
moderation. A tough and thankless job, I'm not really surprised that
you are ready to give it up.

It should have come about that Mark supported your actions instead of
dismissing them out of hand. For that, I find fault with his
high-handed and dismissive management style.

OTOH, many would have pressed harder.

Cybe R. Wizard
--
When Windows are opened the bugs come in.
Winduhs

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