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Old 09-28-2011, 04:53 PM
"Amedee Van Gasse"
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list - clarifications

On Wed, September 28, 2011 18:22, Oliver Grawert wrote:
> hi,
> Am Mittwoch, den 28.09.2011, 17:20 +0200 schrieb Amedee Van Gasse:
>
>> Could you also reconstruct the timeline for the second meeting, to prove
>> or disprove that NoOp and myself were the only two persons who bothered?
>> I
>> feel that NoOp and myself deserve a bit more respect. I feel that some
>> people are misrepresenting the facts. I was there, they weren't.
> i was there as well and i saw you and noop (as i mentioned above) ...
> and there was a mail to this list in advance mentioning the upcoming CC
> meeting and that sounder would be brought up there ...

I stand corrected. You were there too. 3 of us.


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Old 09-28-2011, 04:55 PM
"Amedee Van Gasse"
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list - clarifications

On Wed, September 28, 2011 18:29, Alan Pope wrote:
> On 28 September 2011 17:20, Cybe R. Wizard <cyber_wizard@mindspring.com>
> wrote:
>> The implied intent was pretty clear, Alan. *Sam was asking if the
>> change of meeting time changed the date of meeting. *You replied, "Yes."
>> At the time I, Sam and likely many more took your, "yes," to mean that
>> the meeting /had/ already been bumped to the later date.
>>
>
> Lack of clarity on both sides then. I'm not taking responsibility for
> absolutely nobody looking at a wiki page and absolutely nobody turning
> up to the meeting. The members of sounder didn't bother so more fool
> them for the list being shut down.

Temper, temper...

>> But I'm sure that you are well aware of it and only fall back on
>> the 'letter of the law' argument to save face.
>>
>> I might do the same in similar circumstance.
>>
>
> I'm sure we've covered the 1's and 0's of the sounder list to death
> now. However feel free to throw another insult back at me if it makes
> you feel great to have the last word in the name of being devils
> advocate.

You need some additional moderators so you can take a holiday. Sounds like
you need it.

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Old 09-29-2011, 06:35 AM
Alan Pope
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list - clarifications

On 29 September 2011 05:59, Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> wrote:
> "general operations are fine and covered by the community ... the prob with
> moderation here is that you actually need to read the list"
>
> And this is from our "Community Council"... lamenting that they would have
> to read this list. Am I mistaken? *Ric
>

The point being made is that moderation with forums / askubuntu is
easier. They usually have a button which a user can press to indicate
that a thread is problematic. With mailing lists there is no such
feature. Moderators of mailing lists generally have to read the list
(i.e. every single mail) or rely on someone to alert them when there's
a problem thread.

Al.

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Old 09-29-2011, 09:30 AM
Oliver Grawert
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list - clarifications

hi,
Am Donnerstag, den 29.09.2011, 00:59 -0400 schrieb Ric Moore:

> "general operations are fine and covered by the community ... the prob
> with moderation here is that you actually need to read the list"
>
> And this is from our "Community Council"... lamenting that they would
> have to read this list. Am I mistaken? Ric

yes you heavily are...

these words were mine, i'm not in the CC and just speak for myself in
such meetings (as you or anyone else here could do as well, at least if
people would actually want to show that there is any interest in the
future of this list... community meetings (of all teams in ubuntu, not
only the CC) are all open, held publically in the #ubuntu-meeting IRC
channel and usually on a fixed schedule that you can read on the fridge
[1]).

...and i was just trying to point out that the moderator job is nothing
for an external person, you need to actually read every mail to do
proper moderation (why oh why is everyone making up conspiracy theories
out of hot air recently ?).

ciao
oli

[1] http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/fridge/


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Old 09-29-2011, 03:29 PM
rikona
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list - clarifications

Hello Oliver,

Thursday, September 29, 2011, 2:30:09 AM, Oliver wrote:

> community meetings (of all teams in ubuntu, not only the CC) are all
> open, held publically in the #ubuntu-meeting IRC channel and

How about a 'community meetings' mailing list? That would attract many
more people to participate[which may be both good and bad :-) ].

> usually on a fixed schedule that you can read on the fridge
> [1]).

A schedule for a transitory event is a good way to get people NOT to
participate very much. If you actually want a show of interest, use a
mailing list.

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Old 10-01-2011, 10:53 AM
Paul Sladen
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list - clarifications

On Sat, 1 Oct 2011, Graham Watkins wrote:
> I remain unconvinced that this is not about muzzling criticism of recent
> developments in Ubuntu - particularly Unity.

Recent? To take an example in the last couple of days: somebody asked
about root-passwords (for which the requirement to use has been
superseded by 'sudo' on modern OSes like Mac OS X and Ubuntu). [1]

'sudo-by-default' is *not* a new development; yet, it still received a
variety of finger fast replies. Even the Ubuntu Netbook Remix work
that transformed into Unity dates from Ubuntu 8.04 LTS.

…Imagine a world in which an Ubuntee got honest, quality advice. ;
That's what I believe people-in-general would like to see.
That's likely why yourself and several other 1,000s joined this list.
Yet AFAICT, at the moment, it's not really happening.

-Paul

[1] (For Ubuntu, the 'sudo' decision was taken in 2004!).




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Old 10-01-2011, 05:41 PM
Avi Greenbury
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list - clarifications

compdoc wrote:

> I'm sure people looking for answers appreciate any free help they can
> get.

Yes. But 'help' is at least as operative a word as 'free'. Free but
useless is still useless.

Generally, if someone's asking how to do X with Y, telling them that Y
is rubbish and they should be using Z is *not* helping, not least
because switching to Z is almost always more complicated than making Y
do whatever it is that they want.

If I posted asking for help making, say, Sieve work between Dovecot
and Postfix, I'd be a bit miffed if I was told that I should just use
Zimbra. Equally, I'm not really sure why it would be appropriate to
respond to someone asking how to, say, change the icons in Unity with
a suggestion that they install XFCE or Arch or whatever.

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Old 10-01-2011, 10:52 PM
Avi Greenbury
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list - clarifications

compdoc wrote:

> >Yes. But 'help' is at least as operative a word as 'free'. Free but
> >useless is still useless.
>
> Whether it's this list or the IRC channel, people get all kinds of
> help. Some is good, some is bad. No reason to shut it down.

I thought we were talking about moderation rather than closure? Perhaps
moderation as an alternative to closure, but that's still besides the
point.

> If Unity sucks, people should be able to say so. How else is
> Canonical going to know?

People are able to say so; nobody is trying to curb that at all. This
is just not really the place for it, since it is not a Canonical
contact channel, and it is a community support channel. Nobody gains
from the complaints about Unity here, people do lose out.

The 'proper' places to grumble about Unity is on things like Launchpad
or developer mailing lists, but they do come with something of an
obligation to actually say what it is that's wrong with it. In fact,
all the proper places to complain about it expect a desire to fix it.


If you fancy just ranting, there's many ways of doing that and
nobody's trying to prevent that; all that's being asked here is that you
kindly refrain from doing it all over a support channel.

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Old 10-01-2011, 11:14 PM
Craig White
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list - clarifications

On Sat, 2011-10-01 at 16:00 -0600, compdoc wrote:
> >Yes. But 'help' is at least as operative a word as 'free'. Free but
> >useless is still useless.
>
> Whether it's this list or the IRC channel, people get all kinds of help.
> Some is good, some is bad. No reason to shut it down.
>
> As for 'useless' - that's a judgment call on your part.
>
> If Unity sucks, people should be able to say so. How else is Canonical going
> to know?
----
sucks is a judgment call too.

It's not useful or quantitative feedback.

It's perjorative.

People really should communicate in useful, productive ways.

Craig


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Old 10-01-2011, 11:55 PM
Ernest Doub
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list - clarifications

On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 3:52 PM, Avi Greenbury <lists@avi.co> wrote:

compdoc wrote:



> >Yes. But 'help' is at least as operative a word as 'free'. Free but

- trimmed -




The 'proper' places to grumble about Unity is on things like Launchpad

or developer mailing lists, but they do come with something of an

obligation to actually say what it is that's wrong with it. In fact,

all the proper places to complain about it expect a desire to fix it.

Sometimes the only fix for having a tool that doesn't work for you is to take that tool out of your toolbox.* 'What we had before worked and what we have now doesn't'* is sometimes the only way way to describe something that is perceived as completely broken.

I know the developers don't really want to hear that about something they have invested many hours and a lot of loving attention on being completely [or even mostly] unacceptable to a large [or even middling] proportion of the intended users.

Better they hear it now than after Canonical is a smoking pile of rubble because all of the users have been migrated to something that more closely suits their needs.






If you fancy just ranting, there's many ways of doing that and

nobody's trying to prevent that; all that's being asked here is that you

kindly refrain from doing it all over a support channel. The more overt symptoms of the electronic head cold on this list seem to be subsiding.
Support is a two way street.* Without support there are no users.* Without users there is nothing to support.*




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Accidental deaths by firearms account for less than 1% of the 30,000.
*There are three times as many medical mistake deaths in the US than
there are accidental gun deaths.* Perhaps we need safety locks on
doctors and nurses?




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