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Old 09-28-2011, 04:11 PM
"Cybe R. Wizard"
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 11:40:53 -0400
Dave Woyciesjes <woyciesjes@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

[...]
> So, you are fine with moderation, but don't want a warm body
> doing it? Or you just disagree with a person being the first line of
> moderation? Hmmm, since AI technology is still being developed, how
> exactly do you propose we do the moderation then?
>
Allow me to refer you to my second post Re: this subject:

----------
My own experience is that, if a list needs moderation, the list members
themselves will take care of it, either through ignoring the
noise-makers or chastising them. Failing that, moderation only chases
away the good help, the ones who won't put up with nannies and /good
momma/ moderation.
----------

In view of our unwillingness to police our own areas, how can we
feel it is wise to give that job to individuals? The 'hiring' (or
appointing) of controllers only gets you more and more controlled.
(there's a related saying about Danes but it is too offensive to repeat)

In all seriousness, I don't particularly care if the list is moderated,
left alone or shut down. I merely act as Devil's Advocate, seeing that
differing opinions aren't very forthcoming from the rest of the list.

I'm of the opinion that, if the list stops being what I want it to be
/for me/, I'll be on my way to another. I'm not bound either way.

To both the list as a whole and the CC, in particular:
As I am first and foremost a staunch believer in personal freedom,
please do as you wish. I only present options for your consideration.

Cybe R. Wizard
--
When Windows are opened the bugs come in.
Winduhs

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Old 09-28-2011, 04:55 PM
Dave Woyciesjes
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

Amedee Van Gasse wrote:

On Tue, September 27, 2011 20:35, Avi Greenbury wrote:

Cybe R. Wizard wrote:


[...clipped...]

My own experience is that, if a list needs moderation, the list
members themselves will take care of it, either through ignoring the
noise-makers or chastising them. Failing that, moderation only chases
away the good help, the ones who won't put up with nannies and /good
momma/ moderation.

I don't think particularly active moderation is likely to be needed for
more than a month or so. There's only a few users who habitually post
off-topic replies, and I suspect that the intended effect is precisely
for them to leave, and let the list return to its previously rather
useful state.

Really, the object of this excercise is probably to make more certain
that the rump of -sounder doesn't insist on staying here.


I've seen it go just that way on a good many lists so far, Sounder
included, and imagine this one will go to the dogs pretty quickly if
moderation is imminent.

Sounder wasn't broken by moderation, it was closed because Canonical no
longer saw a reason to host a non-ubuntu-related list. They have even
more justification, in my opinion, to want to stop this one becoming
another not-ubuntu-related list.


People /will/ talk, and about what they wish. Adults don't need
baby-sitting, no matter the fears of those in 'control'.

This list was perfectly useful without all the off topic posts before
-sounder went. I really don't think we need those 'Adults' who are
incapable of remaining on-topic in a support list.


Cybe R. Wizard -prefers freedom to intellectual brow-beating

There's no intellectual brow-beating going on. There's just moves to
make this list something that's worth subscribing to for someone who is
looking for a list matching the nominal description of this one.


I would like to nominate Avi, should he accept.
I kept the full quote, it serves as his application.



I second this, if it counts...

--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- AIM - woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy in the internet.

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Old 09-28-2011, 05:05 PM
Dave Woyciesjes
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

Cybe R. Wizard wrote:

On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 11:40:53 -0400
Dave Woyciesjes <woyciesjes@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

[...]

So, you are fine with moderation, but don't want a warm body
doing it? Or you just disagree with a person being the first line of
moderation? Hmmm, since AI technology is still being developed, how
exactly do you propose we do the moderation then?


Allow me to refer you to my second post Re: this subject:

----------
My own experience is that, if a list needs moderation, the list members
themselves will take care of it, either through ignoring the
noise-makers or chastising them. Failing that, moderation only chases
away the good help, the ones who won't put up with nannies and /good
momma/ moderation.
----------


Yep, I do remember that post of yours. While your experience
_on_other_lists_ shows that self moderation works (and I agree that it
does in some lists, particularly those with smaller memberships);
unfortunately time has proven that self-moderation does not work here.
For the many lists I've been on, I've seen only 2 reasons why the "good
help" goes away - 1: to much off-topic "noise"/abuse/flamewars or
2:they're part of the "noise" and get upset when reminded of the rules
or kicked out.



In view of our unwillingness to police our own areas, how can we
feel it is wise to give that job to individuals? The 'hiring' (or
appointing) of controllers only gets you more and more controlled.
(there's a related saying about Danes but it is too offensive to repeat)


The mod's rules/guidelines are clearly stated: summed up as help people
to keep things on topic, and out of the weeds.



In all seriousness, I don't particularly care if the list is moderated,
left alone or shut down. I merely act as Devil's Advocate, seeing that
differing opinions aren't very forthcoming from the rest of the list.


Maybe that's because there may _not_ be any differing opinions? Or that
those with differing opinions aren't worried about moderation?



I'm of the opinion that, if the list stops being what I want it to be
/for me/, I'll be on my way to another. I'm not bound either way.


From the way you present your arguments/discussions/posts, it seems as
if this list hasn't been what you want for yourself for a while now. I'm
surprised you're still here, then, in that case.



To both the list as a whole and the CC, in particular:
As I am first and foremost a staunch believer in personal freedom,
please do as you wish. I only present options for your consideration.

Cybe R. Wizard



--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- AIM - woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy in the internet.

--
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Old 09-28-2011, 05:10 PM
Dave Woyciesjes
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

Ernest Doub wrote:



"When you're a hammer everything looks like a nail"
When you're a moderator anything deviating from your ideal of what is on
topic is subject to moderation.



[...clipped...]

Indeed true, but the people who would serve as moderators here have
guidelines/rules to follow, so they don't/shouldn't rely on thier own ideal.
And there is process/people who can remdy an issue if a mod does get
personal on someone.


--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- AIM - woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy in the internet.

--
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Old 09-28-2011, 06:24 PM
Avi Greenbury
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

Cybe R. Wizard wrote:
>
> In all seriousness, I don't particularly care if the list is
> moderated, left alone or shut down. I merely act as Devil's
> Advocate, seeing that differing opinions aren't very forthcoming from
> the rest of the list.

So, in summary, nobody is particularly opposed to the idea of
moderation and through you feigning that stance for the sake of
discussion we've unearthed several people supportive of it.

So we can stop talking about whether to moderate it or not and instead
talk about who will moderate it?

--
Avi

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Old 09-28-2011, 06:26 PM
Avi Greenbury
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

Amedee Van Gasse wrote:

> On Tue, September 27, 2011 20:25, Avi Greenbury wrote:
> > Cybe R. Wizard wrote:
> >
> > It's been a distinctly less useful resource since the loss of an
> > off-topic alternative, and I'd really appreciate it returning to
> > being on-topic.
>
> I warned about this on the community meeting in May (the one that only
> NoOp and myself bothered to attend). Time has proven me right.
> Unfortunately.
>

Yes. Not introducing moderation *before* closing sounder does seem to
have been something of an oversight. I think most of sounder suggested
that the natural place to continue would be in -user.

But this is -user, not -user-hindsight

--
Avi

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Old 09-28-2011, 06:42 PM
Dave Woyciesjes
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

Avi Greenbury wrote:

Cybe R. Wizard wrote:

In all seriousness, I don't particularly care if the list is
moderated, left alone or shut down. I merely act as Devil's
Advocate, seeing that differing opinions aren't very forthcoming from
the rest of the list.


So, in summary, nobody is particularly opposed to the idea of
moderation and through you feigning that stance for the sake of
discussion we've unearthed several people supportive of it.


That's what I gather, as I posited in my reply to Cybe's comment (above).
I wonder, if a poll (for/against moderation) was setup somewhere; how
many of us would bother to go & vote? Not that it needs to be done; we
are all aware that this list already has moderator. Alan just needs help...



So we can stop talking about whether to moderate it or not and instead
talk about who will moderate it?

Hear Hear! Avi, you up for the task? So far Amedee and I would vote for
you.



--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- AIM - woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy in the internet.

--
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Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 09-28-2011, 07:07 PM
"Cybe R. Wizard"
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:24:32 +0100
Avi Greenbury <lists@avi.co> wrote:

> So we can stop talking about whether to moderate it or not and instead
> talk about who will moderate it?

Doesn't matter if we discuss it or not; it will be (possibly already
has been) decided by the CC.

Cybe R. Wizard
--
When Windows are opened the bugs come in.
Winduhs

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Old 09-29-2011, 02:13 AM
Ernest Doub
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 12:44 AM, Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> wrote:

On 09/27/2011 02:58 PM, Avi Greenbury wrote:


Cybe R. Wizard wrote:




On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:35:38 +0100

Avi Greenbury<lists@avi.co> *wrote:




There's only a few users who habitually post

off-topic replies, and I suspect that the intended effect is

precisely for them to leave...




But didn't you, in your last post, opine:

"Nobody's stopping anyone using it. This is just an attempt to make a

technical support list be a technical support list."



That doesn't jibe with what you've said in the post to which I now

reply which supposes that to be the very reason for the new and

heaver moderation, to stop people from using it.






I said anyone is allowed to use it, which is true. I didn't say that

anyone is permitted to do exactly as they wish on it, since they're not.



As with most places, anyone is allowed in so long as they play by the

rules.




Avi, would you agree that your are actively participating in an off-topic non-technical thread because the topic matters to you? Sure, you can "justify" it from your set of perspectives, while someone else might tag is as objectionable noise. Yet, no one calls you on this, as you are respected and quite often come up with something useful and you try to help others. An "over-zealous" moderator might have already pulled the plug on you. And me, and n00p and Go Lip and anyone else that pursues a topic that is off-topic, just for fun.




Quite a few humans will resist the notion that we become answer spewing automatisms (the process of objectification) as that would suit you. Trained seals bark for fish. How are we being paid? It's not in money, it's in a sense of community. Good neighbors know their neighbors. They talk over the fence. Here, we enjoy writing. Otherwise, we wouldn't be here. If you figure we should all SHUT-UP until a question of merit comes across, spew an answer and then SHUT-UP again, that's a rather joyless proposition.




But, here I am, responding to an off-topic thread, in order for you to see another perspective. We have just participated in a very human exchange of ideas and perspectives. Heavens forbid we've offended another's sensibilities and rigid (read controlling - shoulds- my way or the highway - failure to live up to my expectations, all part of the over 100 elements of criminal thinking) mindset that explodes when given responsibility that they are not trained by temperament, experience or schooling to handle. Anyone truly qualified for the job wouldn't want it. And that leaves... ?




Ric

--

My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:

"There are two Great Sins in the world...

..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.

Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.

http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html



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+1
--
Accidental deaths by firearms account for less than 1% of the 30,000.
*There are three times as many medical mistake deaths in the US than
there are accidental gun deaths.* Perhaps we need safety locks on
doctors and nurses?




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Old 09-29-2011, 02:25 AM
Ernest Doub
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Dave Woyciesjes <woyciesjes@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Ernest Doub wrote:






"When you're a hammer everything looks like a nail"

When you're a moderator anything deviating from your ideal of what is on topic is subject to moderation.




[...clipped...]



* * * *Indeed true, but the people who would serve as moderators here have guidelines/rules to follow, so they don't/shouldn't rely on thier own ideal.

* * * *And there is process/people who can remdy an issue if a mod does get personal on someone.



--

--- Dave Woyciesjes

--- ICQ# 905818

--- AIM - woyciesjes

--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/

--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/

* * * * * *Registered Linux user number 464583



"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."

"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."

*- from some guy in the internet.



--

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Given a set of guidelines that - by definition - becomes your ideal and acts as a set of guardrails to keep the hammer from falling outside of the target area.

--

Accidental deaths by firearms account for less than 1% of the 30,000.
*There are three times as many medical mistake deaths in the US than
there are accidental gun deaths.* Perhaps we need safety locks on
doctors and nurses?




--
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ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 

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