FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Ubuntu > Ubuntu User

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 09-28-2011, 07:14 AM
Avi Greenbury
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

Ernest Doub wrote:

> When you're a moderator anything deviating from your ideal of what is
> on topic is subject to moderation.
> Only way to control it is to subject all postings to a vote requiring
> at least a majority blackball the post.

That's nonsense. I've been a member of, and a moderator of, several
communities with such moderation. It's not hard to pick good
moderators, and it's certainly not hard to quickly demote less good
ones.

--
Avi

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 09-28-2011, 07:44 AM
Ric Moore
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

On 09/27/2011 02:58 PM, Avi Greenbury wrote:

Cybe R. Wizard wrote:


On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:35:38 +0100
Avi Greenbury<lists@avi.co> wrote:


There's only a few users who habitually post
off-topic replies, and I suspect that the intended effect is
precisely for them to leave...


But didn't you, in your last post, opine:
"Nobody's stopping anyone using it. This is just an attempt to make a
technical support list be a technical support list."

That doesn't jibe with what you've said in the post to which I now
reply which supposes that to be the very reason for the new and
heaver moderation, to stop people from using it.



I said anyone is allowed to use it, which is true. I didn't say that
anyone is permitted to do exactly as they wish on it, since they're not.

As with most places, anyone is allowed in so long as they play by the
rules.

Avi, would you agree that your are actively participating in an
off-topic non-technical thread because the topic matters to you? Sure,
you can "justify" it from your set of perspectives, while someone else
might tag is as objectionable noise. Yet, no one calls you on this, as
you are respected and quite often come up with something useful and you
try to help others. An "over-zealous" moderator might have already
pulled the plug on you. And me, and n00p and Go Lip and anyone else that
pursues a topic that is off-topic, just for fun.


Quite a few humans will resist the notion that we become answer spewing
automatisms (the process of objectification) as that would suit you.
Trained seals bark for fish. How are we being paid? It's not in money,
it's in a sense of community. Good neighbors know their neighbors. They
talk over the fence. Here, we enjoy writing. Otherwise, we wouldn't be
here. If you figure we should all SHUT-UP until a question of merit
comes across, spew an answer and then SHUT-UP again, that's a rather
joyless proposition.


But, here I am, responding to an off-topic thread, in order for you to
see another perspective. We have just participated in a very human
exchange of ideas and perspectives. Heavens forbid we've offended
another's sensibilities and rigid (read controlling - shoulds- my way or
the highway - failure to live up to my expectations, all part of the
over 100 elements of criminal thinking) mindset that explodes when given
responsibility that they are not trained by temperament, experience or
schooling to handle. Anyone truly qualified for the job wouldn't want
it. And that leaves... ?


Ric
--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 09-28-2011, 07:57 AM
Colin Law
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

On 27 September 2011 10:45, Alan Pope <alan@popey.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> The Ubuntu Community Council would like to invite active members of
> this list to volunteer as moderators.

Alan, I think you could throw some light on this thread and possibly
remove some of the heat, by clarifying the situation. The subject
asks for *additional* moderators. Does this mean additional people to
spread the load of whatever moderation is currently imposed or is it
intended that the level of moderation is to be increased?

Perhaps it would be useful to publish the rules of engagement that
apply to current moderators and the proposed changes for the future.

Colin

>
> Once the Community Council has some volunteers we will make a
> selection and announce on the list.
>
> The role entails keeping the list within the bounds of the mailing
> list guidelines [0] & [1]. More specifically this involves keeping
> conversations within the Ubuntu Code of Conduct and ensuring
> conversations on-topic. As this is a support list we expect moderators
> to encourage support, and actively discourage off-topic chatter on the
> list.
>
> Ideally moderators would have some experience of mailman moderation
> tools and will have moderated similar lists in the past. Ubuntu
> Membership [1] is not required for this role, but being a moderator
> for a period will contribute towards gaining Ubuntu Membership.
>
> Please email community-council@lists.ubuntu.com to nominate yourself.
>
> Questions/comments are welcome publicly in this thread, or privately
> to the Community Council.
>
> Many thanks,
> Alan Pope
>
> [0] http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists
> [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MailingLists
> [2] http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
>
> --
> ubuntu-users mailing list
> ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
>



--
gplus.to/clanlaw

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 09-28-2011, 08:01 AM
Avi Greenbury
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

Ric Moore wrote:
> Avi, would you agree that your are actively participating in an
> off-topic non-technical thread because the topic matters to you?
> Sure, you can "justify" it from your set of perspectives, while
> someone else might tag is as objectionable noise.

Yep. I'm somewhat justifying it to myself because it's entirely in a
thread whose subject is both from a list admin and noted as off-topic,
but on-topic (sort-of) to that subject. Anyone who isn't interested
will just ignore the thread, since it's obviously not a support one.

> Yet, no one calls you on this, as you are respected and quite often
> come up with something useful and you try to help others. An
> "over-zealous" moderator might have already pulled the plug on you.
> And me, and n00p and Go Lip and anyone else that pursues a topic that
> is off-topic, just for fun.

As they should. But, were this list to actually be moderated, then this
conversation would be here in the first place

> Quite a few humans will resist the notion that we become answer
> spewing automatisms (the process of objectification) as that would
> suit you. Trained seals bark for fish. How are we being paid? It's
> not in money, it's in a sense of community. Good neighbors know their
> neighbors. They talk over the fence. Here, we enjoy writing.
> Otherwise, we wouldn't be here. If you figure we should all SHUT-UP
> until a question of merit comes across, spew an answer and then
> SHUT-UP again, that's a rather joyless proposition.

I don't. I sit somewhere in the vast middle ground between the mess we
have at the minute and this dictatorial nightmare you and Cybe are
envisaging.

> But, here I am, responding to an off-topic thread, in order for you
> to see another perspective. We have just participated in a very human
> exchange of ideas and perspectives. Heavens forbid we've offended
> another's sensibilities and rigid (read controlling - shoulds- my way
> or the highway - failure to live up to my expectations, all part of
> the over 100 elements of criminal thinking) mindset that explodes
> when given responsibility that they are not trained by temperament,
> experience or schooling to handle. Anyone truly qualified for the job
> wouldn't want it. And that leaves... ?

I've done it before. I've been told I was rather good at it, and I
wasn't particularly opposed to doing it. Perhaps they were just
peculiarly good communities?

Like I say, only appointing good moderators isn't *hard*, and demoting
less good ones even less so. And moderators don't need to make sure
that nobody ever says something that isn't a support question or answer.

I'd *like* to see some moderators who basically act as coercion to keep
threads on-topic to their subject line. I've no desire to get rid of
all OT, and I don't think Canonical do either; so long as it's easy for
the people who don't want OT to avoid it.

Sure, perhaps I'm wrong here. But then I'd appreciate it if the
opposition was to that, not to the broader concept of moderation at
all. It doesn't always need to be the dictatorial regime you appear to
believe it must turn out to be.

--
Avi

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 09-28-2011, 09:09 AM
Ric Moore
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

On 09/28/2011 04:01 AM, Avi Greenbury wrote:


Sure, perhaps I'm wrong here. But then I'd appreciate it if the
opposition was to that, not to the broader concept of moderation at
all. It doesn't always need to be the dictatorial regime you appear to
believe it must turn out to be.


Well written perspective, thanks. I have been on lists where the
moderators made everyone so mad that most of the active participants
left. Myself, I've started 4 computer user groups around the country and
ran an 8 line BBS when that was an unheard of feat. I spent 26 years in
the Chemical Industry, starting with BASF when there was only two
employees in the country that had a home computer, myself with an Apple
][ and another guy with a Commodore Pet. I felt sorry for him.
At any rate, we used Robert's Rules Of Order, got our business done with
in short order, and got straight into the presentation and the
socializing. ALWAYS have refreshments! Our members ranks swelled,
because we had business over with in short order and then came the fun.


I have come to a couple of conclusions. Computers are dead things. We do
all sorts of things to make them alive and responsive to our needs. The
trick it to not become like our computers. The best list I have ever
been on was the old Caldera Users List. There was ONE rigid rule that
was enforced. We had to insert <TID> "Thread is Deteriorating" on the
subject line or get yelled at by the group, when we got OT. And TID we did.


Anyone NOT wanting OT could depend on the fact that the OT was always
labeled and a filter would scrub it. You NEVER got OT if you didn't want
it and we liked that. I got to hear from the likes of Mad Dog Hall
recounting his days on the PDP-8, stuff you would never have read about
anywhere else. Evan Liebovich was determining the "Right Thing" for the
Linux Standards group. We got to communicate on topics that were near
and dear to our hearts via Pine and 2400 baud modems that helped shape
some of the standards that became in use. He took our suggestions
seriously, no matter our individual skill levels. I was a glutton at a
feast. Sure, this list is for technical discussions. But, as Ubuntu
Users, pursuit of the "Right Thing" regarding our distro and our OS
ain't a bad thing either.


So, I would suggest a rigid enforcement of the OT rule or the <TID> rule
be in place for subject lines, so that the users who do not want OT
don't get OT with a mere simple filter rule. That would be a polite
thing to do for the users who don't want OT. Then if someone wants to
yak across the fence, and talk about CP/M machines, no harm no foul.


Oh yeah, also beat the crap out of the top posters. <grins> Ric

p/s shouldn't we be marking this OT?


--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 09-28-2011, 10:20 AM
Oliver Grawert
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

hi,
Am Dienstag, den 27.09.2011, 17:51 -0500 schrieb Billie Walsh:

> This thread has been spun all out of proportion. If you re-read the
> above you will see that there is no mention of placing the list on
> moderation.It is, pure and simple, a call for volunteers to act as
> assistant moderators. Nothing more.
right, and we all dont want that alan burns out !!!

>
> The list IS a "moderated list". Always has been.
only since 6 months to a year, it was totally unmoderated up to that
point (at least for the 7 years i'm on it).
tbh there wasnt much noticeable moderation stuff going on at all during
that period, i wouldnt expect that to change even if our current
moderator gets helpers

ciao
oli


--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 09-28-2011, 03:26 PM
"Amedee Van Gasse"
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

On Tue, September 27, 2011 20:35, Avi Greenbury wrote:
> Cybe R. Wizard wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 11:00:44 -0700
>> Pastor JW <pastor_jw@the-inner-circle.org> wrote
>> > Hopefully it would stop those 100 post long nonsense and off topic
>> > treads we now see so much of. Because of the work load, I'd vote
>> > for the plural on the moderator(s) question. A good helpful list
>> > shouldn't need to be filled with noise all the time. It renders the
>> > list as worthless as Google and it ruins the helpful part. Then too,
>> > the noise factor bogs the new users down in their quest to actually
>> > learn how something works.
>> >
>> If that's your feeling, why haven't /you/ been telling folks off for
>> OT posts? Why delegate authority to another who may have (/probably/
>> has) a different agenda than that which is shown publicly?
>
> Because that would add yet further to the useless and off topic posts,
> and cause the thread to descend, as this surely will, to repeated
> demands for the fulfilment of some apparent universal human right to
> access to a canonical-hosted off-topic mailing list.
>
>
>> My own experience is that, if a list needs moderation, the list
>> members themselves will take care of it, either through ignoring the
>> noise-makers or chastising them. Failing that, moderation only chases
>> away the good help, the ones who won't put up with nannies and /good
>> momma/ moderation.
>
> I don't think particularly active moderation is likely to be needed for
> more than a month or so. There's only a few users who habitually post
> off-topic replies, and I suspect that the intended effect is precisely
> for them to leave, and let the list return to its previously rather
> useful state.
>
> Really, the object of this excercise is probably to make more certain
> that the rump of -sounder doesn't insist on staying here.
>
>> I've seen it go just that way on a good many lists so far, Sounder
>> included, and imagine this one will go to the dogs pretty quickly if
>> moderation is imminent.
>
> Sounder wasn't broken by moderation, it was closed because Canonical no
> longer saw a reason to host a non-ubuntu-related list. They have even
> more justification, in my opinion, to want to stop this one becoming
> another not-ubuntu-related list.
>
>> People /will/ talk, and about what they wish. Adults don't need
>> baby-sitting, no matter the fears of those in 'control'.
>
> This list was perfectly useful without all the off topic posts before
> -sounder went. I really don't think we need those 'Adults' who are
> incapable of remaining on-topic in a support list.
>
>> Cybe R. Wizard -prefers freedom to intellectual brow-beating
>
> There's no intellectual brow-beating going on. There's just moves to
> make this list something that's worth subscribing to for someone who is
> looking for a list matching the nominal description of this one.

I would like to nominate Avi, should he accept.
I kept the full quote, it serves as his application.

--
Amedee


--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 09-28-2011, 03:32 PM
"Amedee Van Gasse"
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

On Tue, September 27, 2011 20:25, Avi Greenbury wrote:
> Cybe R. Wizard wrote:
>> Uh, oh, looks like this list's days are numbered, too, just like
>> Sounder's were.
>
> No, I don't think it is. It's quite inarguable, I think, that the need
> for moderation is a result of the closing of -sounder, but this would
> be more the beginning of a revival of this list than its end.
>
> It's been a distinctly less useful resource since the loss of an
> off-topic alternative, and I'd really appreciate it returning to being
> on-topic.

I warned about this on the community meeting in May (the one that only
NoOp and myself bothered to attend). Time has proven me right.
Unfortunately.

--
Amedee


--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 09-28-2011, 03:40 PM
Dave Woyciesjes
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

Cybe R. Wizard wrote:

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 17:39:26 -0500
"Cybe R. Wizard" <cyber_wizard@mindspring.com> wrote:


On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 18:07:42 -0400
Dave Woyciesjes <woyciesjes@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

So... if I read this right, you agree with the destination/intent
(keeping this list on-topic); but disagree loudly with how to get
there. Right?

Precisely.


Er, /not/ precisely. I have no problem with that intent. I do not
support or endorse it. I, personally, don't mind some OT but realize
that many folks do. I certainly won't stand in the way of a sensible
plan to reduce or eliminate OT postings as long as it isn't predicated
by human moderation.

So, you are fine with moderation, but don't want a warm body doing it?
Or you just disagree with a person being the first line of moderation?
Hmmm, since AI technology is still being developed, how exactly do you
propose we do the moderation then?


--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- AIM - woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy in the internet.

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 09-28-2011, 03:46 PM
Dave Woyciesjes
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

Ric Moore wrote:

On 09/27/2011 02:58 PM, Avi Greenbury wrote:

Cybe R. Wizard wrote:


On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:35:38 +0100
Avi Greenbury<lists@avi.co> wrote:


There's only a few users who habitually post
off-topic replies, and I suspect that the intended effect is
precisely for them to leave...


But didn't you, in your last post, opine:
"Nobody's stopping anyone using it. This is just an attempt to make a
technical support list be a technical support list."

That doesn't jibe with what you've said in the post to which I now
reply which supposes that to be the very reason for the new and
heaver moderation, to stop people from using it.



I said anyone is allowed to use it, which is true. I didn't say that
anyone is permitted to do exactly as they wish on it, since they're not.

As with most places, anyone is allowed in so long as they play by the
rules.

Avi, would you agree that your are actively participating in an
off-topic non-technical thread because the topic matters to you? ....


[clipped]

Hmmm, I would venture to say (and I have a feeling many agree) that
while this thread pushes the off-topic boundary as it not being about
Ubuntu tech support; it is a (barely) and important discussion to have
here, as it concerns the future & functionality of our neighborhood here.

So ,yeah, I say it's on... But I'm not speaking for Avi....

--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- AIM - woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy in the internet.

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 09:57 PM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org