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Old 09-27-2011, 06:41 PM
Avi Greenbury
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

Cybe R. Wizard wrote:

> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:25:10 +0100
> Avi Greenbury <lists@avi.co> wrote:
>
> > > Oh, wait, Ubuntu is the Linux for Human Beings except for you and
> > > you and...
> >
> > Nobody's stopping anyone using it.
>
> ...yet. What do you think moderation is all about? Friendliness?
> Hardly, someone who shall remain nameless has decided that some
> viewpoints aren't desirous and are attempting to stop their
> dissemination. What else can it possibly be for?

No.

A couple of years ago, this list was useless. I could subscribe to it,
but each day I'd add around thirty threads to my ignore list, and
anything more than about ten messages long probably no longer resembled
the subject line.

For a wonderful, but short, period, I could check my mail, see a
readable number of messages in my inbox and actually follow the list -
respond to people's questions, learn things from other people's
answers. Even when the traffic was high, I could almost guarantee that
any thread with an interesting-looking subject line was both
interesting and about that subject.

Then they closed -sounder (which, no, is not something I wanted to
happen) and for some reason half the contents of -sounder decided that
-user was where they were supposed to come. And the list reverted to
being high-traffic with a ridiculously bad signal to noise ratio. I'm
no longer really following this list because I don't have time. I
suspect I am not in the minority.

The idea of moderation is to bring the list back to being useful.
There's no point hosting a technical support list if it offers nobody
any support because instead it is full of witty quips and in-jokes.

> BTW, where are Karl Larson, Space Ghost, Res, ...?
>
> Cybe R. Wizard -can y ou say, "moderated away?"

Yes. That's what moderation is for. People who do not contribute to the
list are encouraged to not detract from it.


I'm having trouble understanding your opposition to this, really.

--
Avi

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Old 09-27-2011, 06:47 PM
"Cybe R. Wizard"
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:35:38 +0100
Avi Greenbury <lists@avi.co> wrote:

> There's only a few users who habitually post
> off-topic replies, and I suspect that the intended effect is precisely
> for them to leave...

But didn't you, in your last post, opine:
"Nobody's stopping anyone using it. This is just an attempt to make a
technical support list be a technical support list."

That doesn't jibe with what you've said in the post to which I now
reply which supposes that to be the very reason for the new and
heaver moderation, to stop people from using it.

Cybe R. Wizard -but only 'certain' undesirables, right?
--
Certainly Undesirable

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Old 09-27-2011, 06:52 PM
"Cybe R. Wizard"
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:41:18 +0100
Avi Greenbury <lists@avi.co> wrote:

> I'm having trouble understanding your opposition to this, really.

I despise the, "momma spank," mentality, no matter where, when or how.
It is /always/ oppressive in the end. There are many very effective and
more appropriate ways to handle 'moderation,' which is really a misnomer
for, "excessive authority."

...especially among adults. But aren't the target audience for Ubuntu
the middle-schoolers, anyway?

Cybe R. Wizard -will now go stand in the corner wearing the pointy hat
--
When Windows are opened the bugs come in.
Winduhs

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Old 09-27-2011, 06:58 PM
Avi Greenbury
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

Cybe R. Wizard wrote:

> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:35:38 +0100
> Avi Greenbury <lists@avi.co> wrote:
>
> > There's only a few users who habitually post
> > off-topic replies, and I suspect that the intended effect is
> > precisely for them to leave...
>
> But didn't you, in your last post, opine:
> "Nobody's stopping anyone using it. This is just an attempt to make a
> technical support list be a technical support list."
>
> That doesn't jibe with what you've said in the post to which I now
> reply which supposes that to be the very reason for the new and
> heaver moderation, to stop people from using it.
>

I said anyone is allowed to use it, which is true. I didn't say that
anyone is permitted to do exactly as they wish on it, since they're not.

As with most places, anyone is allowed in so long as they play by the
rules.

--
Avi

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Old 09-27-2011, 07:34 PM
Dave Woyciesjes
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

Cybe R. Wizard wrote:

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:25:10 +0100
Avi Greenbury <lists@avi.co> wrote:


Oh, wait, Ubuntu is the Linux for Human Beings except for you and
you and...

Nobody's stopping anyone using it.


...yet. What do you think moderation is all about? Friendliness?


Nope. Not one bit. It's about keeping conversation in the right
direction; keeping people from getting in the weeds.



Hardly, someone who shall remain nameless has decided that some
viewpoints aren't desirous and are attempting to stop their
dissemination. What else can it possibly be for?


Actually, if you poke around the Ubuntu & Canonical websites, I'm sure
you will find those names. When they created this list, they decided
that thier list shall have a certain focus on the topics discussed. So
by that design, of course certain (many?) viewpoints are not desirous on
this list.

Other places, however, I'm sure they are welcomed.


BTW, where are Karl Larson, Space Ghost, Res, ...?

Cybe R. Wizard -can y ou say, "moderated away?"


Karl? Sure... His posting of dangerously incomplete & incorrect
information was bad.

Space Ghost & Res? Dunno, but they did provide good information...
--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- AIM - woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy in the internet.

--
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Old 09-27-2011, 07:40 PM
Dave Woyciesjes
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

Cybe R. Wizard wrote:

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:35:38 +0100
Avi Greenbury <lists@avi.co> wrote:


There's only a few users who habitually post
off-topic replies, and I suspect that the intended effect is precisely
for them to leave...


But didn't you, in your last post, opine:
"Nobody's stopping anyone using it. This is just an attempt to make a
technical support list be a technical support list."


That doesn't jibe with what you've said in the post to which I now
reply which supposes that to be the very reason for the new and
heaver moderation, to stop people from using it.


Cybe R. Wizard -but only 'certain' undesirables, right?


Only if you don't read it through properly, and keep in mind that this
list was created with a specific focus.

No one is being stopped from using it *for what it was created for*.

Your comments sound like someone who gets upset when they are told that
they can't use a baseball bat to bash in someone's head.


--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- AIM - woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy in the internet.

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 09-27-2011, 07:46 PM
Dave Woyciesjes
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

Cybe R. Wizard wrote:

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:41:18 +0100
Avi Greenbury <lists@avi.co> wrote:


I'm having trouble understanding your opposition to this, really.


I despise the, "momma spank," mentality, no matter where, when or how.
It is /always/ oppressive in the end. There are many very effective and
more appropriate ways to handle 'moderation,' which is really a misnomer
for, "excessive authority."



I can't speak to how moderation is done here; but I find it hard to
believe that it would be considered "oppressive". That is such a strong
word. Also quite subjective.
Along with Avi, I myself am having trouble understanding your
opposition. Please try to help us understand.


--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- AIM - woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy in the internet.

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 09-27-2011, 07:47 PM
Dave Woyciesjes
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

Avi Greenbury wrote:

Cybe R. Wizard wrote:



On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:25:10 +0100
Avi Greenbury <lists@avi.co> wrote:


Nobody's stopping anyone using it.



...yet. What do you think moderation is all about? Friendliness?
Hardly, someone who shall remain nameless has decided that some
viewpoints aren't desirous and are attempting to stop their
dissemination. What else can it possibly be for?


...[clipped]...



I'm having trouble understanding your opposition to this, really.



He's looking for a soapbox for a free-for-all?

--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- AIM - woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy in the internet.

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 09-27-2011, 09:10 PM
"Cybe R. Wizard"
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 15:46:01 -0400
Dave Woyciesjes <woyciesjes@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Cybe R. Wizard wrote:
> > On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:41:18 +0100
> > Avi Greenbury <lists@avi.co> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm having trouble understanding your opposition to this, really.
> >
> > I despise the, "momma spank," mentality, no matter where, when or
> > how. It is /always/ oppressive in the end. There are many very
> > effective and more appropriate ways to handle 'moderation,' which
> > is really a misnomer for, "excessive authority."
> >
>
> I can't speak to how moderation is done here; but I find it
> hard to believe that it would be considered "oppressive". That is
> such a strong word. Also quite subjective.
> Along with Avi, I myself am having trouble understanding your
> opposition. Please try to help us understand.

First, I understand the desire to have a more technically-oriented list.

That would be great, yes, but I dispute the moderation cost as not worth
it /and/ not worthy of us Ubuntuers in our role as caring human
beings.

In multi-person moderation wherein each is individual and
equally-empowered one may be made a moderator, then have a Bad Day, take
hir troubles out on folks on the list who, no matter their on-topicness,
may have riled or otherwise irked said moderator. It can happen. It
has happened. It /will/ happen. That's just one example.

Moderation by panel is marginally better but harder to effect as the
panel will likely not be online at the same time nor all the time.
Even if online together, world-wide panels take up valuable time in
discussion, often make non-desirous decisions due to 'majority input'
and/or 'play favorites' where some may get away with greater
off-topicness due to greater perceived usefulness to the list, personal
attractiveness, pity, etc. ad nauseum.

_Much better_ would be a strict list with hard and fast rules that were
regularly and publicly posted (on the list, not on some website that,
like the fictional Isla de Muerta, can only be found by those who know
where it is, and not evanescent and subject-to-vast-interpretation
'suggestions' such as may be found in the CofC [1]) and that would deal
out moderation with machine-like impartiality.

I would fully and completely support that kind of list if off topic
postings are such anathema to us (hard for me to imagine, but there it
is).

Heck, it isn't that hard to actually say what you mean, especially to a
bunch of total strangers in a mailing list. List the things allowed
and the things not allowed. Give distinct categories and examples.

The list, itself, could make that set of rules in just a couple of
days if asked. Everyone would probably like to, anyway.

Notify once, then ban those who don't comply, temporarily at first
strike, forever thereafter. That would be far better and much more fair
than to give vaguely-worded suggestions, then allow and encourage hidden
moderation with all its faults.

That way everybody knows from the get-go what is expected of
them, what is disallowed and what gets you the boot.

Hey, here's a stray and random thought; get everyone to sign said hard
and fast rules /before/ being allowed on the list! Its much easier to
get folks to abide by rules to which they have already agreed.

[1] From the Code:
...we should... ...we expect... we encourage... ...it is important
that we resolve... ...we ask...

Cybe R. Wizard -probably gonna be moderated away
--
When Windows are opened the bugs come in.
Winduhs

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 
Old 09-27-2011, 10:07 PM
Dave Woyciesjes
 
Default Additional moderator(s) sought for ubuntu-users list

Cybe R. Wizard wrote:

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 15:46:01 -0400
Dave Woyciesjes <woyciesjes@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


Cybe R. Wizard wrote:

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:41:18 +0100
Avi Greenbury <lists@avi.co> wrote:


I'm having trouble understanding your opposition to this, really.

I despise the, "momma spank," mentality, no matter where, when or
how. It is /always/ oppressive in the end. There are many very
effective and more appropriate ways to handle 'moderation,' which
is really a misnomer for, "excessive authority."


I can't speak to how moderation is done here; but I find it
hard to believe that it would be considered "oppressive". That is
such a strong word. Also quite subjective.
Along with Avi, I myself am having trouble understanding your
opposition. Please try to help us understand.


First, I understand the desire to have a more technically-oriented list.

That would be great, yes, but I dispute the moderation cost as not worth
it /and/ not worthy of us Ubuntuers in our role as caring human
beings.


In multi-person moderation wherein each is individual and
equally-empowered one may be made a moderator, then have a Bad Day, take
hir troubles out on folks on the list who, no matter their on-topicness,
may have riled or otherwise irked said moderator. It can happen. It
has happened. It /will/ happen. That's just one example.

Moderation by panel is marginally better but harder to effect as the
panel will likely not be online at the same time nor all the time.
Even if online together, world-wide panels take up valuable time in
discussion, often make non-desirous decisions due to 'majority input'
and/or 'play favorites' where some may get away with greater
off-topicness due to greater perceived usefulness to the list, personal
attractiveness, pity, etc. ad nauseum.

_Much better_ would be a strict list with hard and fast rules that were
regularly and publicly posted (on the list, not on some website that,
like the fictional Isla de Muerta, can only be found by those who know
where it is, and not evanescent and subject-to-vast-interpretation
'suggestions' such as may be found in the CofC [1]) and that would deal
out moderation with machine-like impartiality.

I would fully and completely support that kind of list if off topic
postings are such anathema to us (hard for me to imagine, but there it
is).

Heck, it isn't that hard to actually say what you mean, especially to a
bunch of total strangers in a mailing list. List the things allowed
and the things not allowed. Give distinct categories and examples.

The list, itself, could make that set of rules in just a couple of
days if asked. Everyone would probably like to, anyway.

Notify once, then ban those who don't comply, temporarily at first
strike, forever thereafter. That would be far better and much more fair
than to give vaguely-worded suggestions, then allow and encourage hidden
moderation with all its faults.

That way everybody knows from the get-go what is expected of
them, what is disallowed and what gets you the boot.

Hey, here's a stray and random thought; get everyone to sign said hard
and fast rules /before/ being allowed on the list! Its much easier to
get folks to abide by rules to which they have already agreed.

[1] From the Code:
...we should... ...we expect... we encourage... ...it is important
that we resolve... ...we ask...


Cybe R. Wizard -probably gonna be moderated away


So... if I read this right, you agree with the destination/intent
(keeping this list on-topic); but disagree loudly with how to get there.

Right?

--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- AIM - woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy in the internet.

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
 

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