On 8 May 2011 20:09, compdoc <compdoc@hotrodpc.com> wrote:
>>Who says it's anything to do with existing users?
>
> You're concerned with future generations, and while that's very noble of
> you, I find it troubling that you would call an opinion childish or pathetic
> just because we are questioning the direction of Ubuntu's desktop.

Ah, now, hang on.

If one is questioning the direction of the desktop, well, that is
entirely valid.

But saying "we like GNOME 2, give us GNOME 2, we don't want anything
new or different, we like it as it is," that's not questioning the
future direction. That's just saying "we don't want a future
direction."

> Do you always do what you're told? Have you never questioned authority?

No. Yes. :¬)

> They're trying Unity, but this doesn't mean it's better or that it will draw
> in Windows users. If it sucks it's going to push users away.

If people /are/ trying it, then good for them. I think a lot of people
aren't trying it, they're just complaining about it sight unseen.

> The 'powers that be' sometimes get it wrong. Although I'm sure you won't
> find many North Koreans who will speak out against their leader, he's still
> a whack job and heading in wrong directions.

Conceded, but damn, that's a harsh comparison with our beloved SABDFL! :¬)

> It's stupid not to voice concerns. Maybe those future Ubuntu users will
> thanks us.

Voicing concerns is fine. The bulk of the voices seem to me, though,
to be just stating a dislike of change.

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On 8 May 2011 20:36, Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 2011-05-08 at 19:43 +0100, Liam Proven wrote:
>> On 8 May 2011 00:21, compdoc <compdoc@hotrodpc.com> wrote:
>> >>It's pathetic and it's childish.
>> >>
>> >>Just deal with it, learn the new, and move on.
>> >
>> >
>> > Expressing an opinion, in life and in a mailing list, is never pathetic or
>> > childish. Our talking about it is how we deal with it. This is how people do
>> > this sort of thing.
>>
>> I'm not saying that expressing the opinion is childish.
>>
>> I'm saying that the opinion itself is childish.
>>
>> > If enough of us find Unity is a step backwards, then maybe something is
>> > wrong with the direction Ubuntu is headed.
>>
>> Who says it's anything to do with existing users?
>>
>> ISTM that it's an attempt to simplify the GUI, make it more
>> phone/tablet-like, to win /new/ users. If the current ones don't like
>> it, well, tough.
>>
>> There are a billion-odd Windows users out there to convert. 99.9% or
>> so of the world's computer users run Windows. THEY are the target, not
>> present Ubuntisti.
>>
>>
>> > If enough of us find Unity useful
>> > or even better than gnome, then Ubuntu is going the right way.
>>
>> Honestly? If every existing user deserted, so long as more new ones
>> came on board then left, I don't think they'd mind at all.
>>
>> > We are after all, the users and supporters and maintainers of Ubuntu.
>> > Shouldn't we be allowed to voice our opinions?
>>
>> Well, yes, sure. But this is not a democracy. Never was. It's a
>> dictatorship, under a self-appointed dictator-for-life. Happily,
>> though, he is a benevolent one.
>>
>> > Without us, Ubuntu would become another abandoned fork.
>>
>> Not if a hundred million new users descended on it, no.
>
> But that does abandon the old "Meritocracy" concept, where the search of
> the "Right Thing" is the Holy Grail, as those of higher merit occupy the
> higher rungs of Power and Authority.

Well, the thing is, the pure meritocracy model gave us Debian. Clever,
powerful, flexible, horrible to install and configure and a pain for
anyone except a deep geek.

Then Bruce Perens (peace be upon him) tried to get people to pull
together and make UserLinux. But it didn't attain critical mass.

Then the blessèd saintly Mark Shuttleworth, praised be his name, came
along with a big fat chequebook and said "just bloody well do it,
here, I'm paying," and lo, we got the blessings from space itself of
Ubuntu. Yay Mark!

Mark bypassed the whole meritocracy thing with a few years of $10M/yr.
Amazing how that encourages FOSS coders to pull together, that. ;¬)

> But, telling some one of a different perspective to fark off, if they
> don't like things, is to completely devalue the person, if not just the
> relationship. OTOH, that goes for both sides of the relationship coin.
> So, if someone occupies the higher rungs of the Meritocracy, maybe we
> could consider that they just might know something that we don't. You
> know, "give the Devil his due". Hopefully, some sense of moderation and
> accommodation can be found in the middle ground. As it is, I can just
> hold back to 10.4 and enjoy life as it is. There is, thankfully, always
> that. Ric

Fair point, actually.

I installed Natty last night. The upgrade didn't bother to install a
new bootloader so it trashed my box.

But I fixed that, and now, I have it and I really like it. It's cool,
pretty and it works rather well. It's not perfect - it's not a patch
on a Mac yet - but hey, it's nifty. It's natty, in fact.

But then, I was fairly happy with GNOME 2. And LXDE is OK. Xfce I am
not a huge fan of, but it's OK. Xandros were the only people ever to
make KDE usable and Red Hat were the only people ever to make it look
nice, but hell, I could live with KDE if I had to. I might have to go
and find some old monochrome monitors to tame the fugly enough so it
didn't hurt my eyes, but I could.

Desktops are not all that big a deal, really. People get too exercised
about it. It's just a bally program launcher, for heaven's sake!

Maybe Unity is a bold new step in the right direction. Maybe it isn't.
Maybe in 2y we'll all have GNOME 3 but with an Ubuntu launcher panel
down the side!

But GNOME 2 is dead. Get over it, people, move on, enjoy your really
pretty natty free OS and apps, because they're really pretty damned
good!


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On 9 May 2011 05:45, Douglas S. Saylor <absdoug@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 2011-05-08 at 19:59 +0100, Liam Proven wrote:
>
>> I'm telling them to grow up, not shut up. :¬)
>
> There IS a difference!
>
>> Nope, because the users don't really know.
>
> AND even if legacy Ubuntu WAS what users wanted, legacy Ubuntu has not
> attracting a lot of users ...in the big picture. "We" are a
> drop-in-the-bucket. SO FAR, I have not been able to give a reason for
> Windows friends CASUAL computer users to switch to Linux. So far Ubuntu
> 11.04 might change that.
>
>> Good for you. 'Bye, then!
>
> AND why feel bad for those that leave since there really is so many
> choices of highly customizable versions of Linux. Wana live in the past?
> Get Debian! (I tried it, yikes! But others love it)
>
>> Why? Why should they care? You're not a paying customer. You're a
>> freeloader. We all are.
>
> Bitingly true ...and funny to imagine those that would be insulted
> <grin>

:¬D Thanks, man!

>> Is it? Really? Why? I see no question. GNOME 2 doesn't have a future.
>> GNOME has a future, and for now, it's GNOME 3. GNOME 2 is history.
>
> I think there seems, with some, they want what they have/had. They don't
> want new/better cause they got THIS figured out. I get it, sorta, but
> newer=better pretty much 99% of the time that just IS the reality. Is
> there a learning curve that might be uncomfortable? Of course. But I
> guess if learning new stuff is considered a "problem" ...I'm gunna have
> to agree to disagree with those folks.
>
>> Kill it how? By no longer supporting a superseded piece of code? Well
>> what else should they do?
>>
>> Why would a modern distro cling to outdated legacy code?
>>
>> Seriously, I'm curious, why?
>
> I guess this goes to some people wanting what they got without change so
> they never have to learn new stuff <sigh>. I guess if you like old
> motorcycles, cars, etc, you can do that. Computers, software ...that
> world is obsolete in 6-months!

Good call, actually. I /do/ like retro stuff myself. A lot.

But also, one of the really cool things about free software is that I
get cool /new/ toys all the time, and I love that.

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On 9 May 2011 15:40, Fred A. Miller <fmiller@lightlink.com> wrote:
> On 05/09/2011 12:45 AM, Douglas S. Saylor wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> I think there seems, with some, they want what they have/had. They don't
>> want new/better cause they got THIS figured out. I get it, sorta, but
>> newer=better pretty much 99% of the time that just IS the reality. Is
>> there a learning curve that might be uncomfortable? Of course. But I
>> guess if learning new stuff is considered a "problem" ...I'm gunna have
>> to agree to disagree with those folks.
>>
>>> > Kill it how? By no longer supporting a superseded piece of code? Well
>>> > what else should they do?
>>> >
>>> > Why would a modern distro cling to outdated legacy code?
>>> >
>>> > Seriously, I'm curious, why?
>> I guess this goes to some people wanting what they got without change so
>> they never have to learn new stuff <sigh>. I guess if you like old
>> motorcycles, cars, etc, you can do that. Computers, software ...that
>> world is obsolete in 6-months!
>
> It has nothing to do with what's "new," but that what is new is of lower
> functionality
> and configurability than that which was replaced. It is never a good
> thing to remove
> them.....period! For example, take a good long look at the new KDE for
> an example
> of all the graphic "goodies" many want yet with the configurability and
> functionality
> that is mandated by more than a casual user who only reads email and web
> pages.

That's a fair point, actually.

Yes, Unity is a bit simpler. There's a whole bunch of stuff it doesn't
do, AFAICS, that the old system did.

But then, there's a whole bunch of stuff Mac OS X doesn't do that
Windows does, any yet, it's an entirely usable OS.

Sometimes, simplification can show you the things you didn't realise
were actually inessential.

I can certainly see how some people's workflow will be impeded by
Unity as opposed to GNOME 2. Mine isn't, so far, but some will.

But it works and it also comes with cool new facilities.

And at the end of the day, it's less like Windows. I work with Windows
all day every day. Anything that gives me a break from that on my own
computer is good, and it's also good for Canonical because there is
less for MICROS~1 to sue over.



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On Monday, May 09, 2011 12:17:00 pm Ric Moore wrote:
> On Mon, 2011-05-09 at 20:03 +0100, Colin Law wrote:
> > On 9 May 2011 19:53, Thierry de Coulon <tcoulon@decoulon.ch> wrote:
> > > On Monday 09 May 2011 08:18:37 pm Douglas S. Saylor wrote:
> > >> Give the AVERAGE automobile driver
> > >> (cost, repairs aside) the option to have manual or automatic
> > >> transmission MOST will choose NOT to choose gear selection: automatic
> > >> is preferred by most (I HATE automatic transmission BTW)
> > >
> > > Sorry. Give the _american_ average automobile driver (maybe UK or
> > > Australia too). Here in Switzerland it would be the opposite.
> >
> > Also in the UK most would choose manual. We don't want any sissy
> > things like automatics here.
>
> I can burn rubber in second gear, with a hopped up 350 V8, in my 1977
> Chevy pickup, coupled to a good automatic. Somehow, somewhere, all the
> smog control gadgets disappeared... like magic. Beats me! With the cost
> of fuel now, I'm afraid to start it. <shrugs> Ric

Well, I can't burn rubber at all with mine but it does go from 0 to 60 in 4.73
seconds and I average 31 mpg. It is a 6 speed manual, four cylinders, and has
all the factory United States mandated smog control functions still on the
car, its even legal in California! Nothing special, just a bog standard
straight off the showroom floor, sold in the US, 2010 vehicle. I do understand
the same car in the rest of the world is a mite quicker and has few more
horsepower than we in the US are allowed to have but I'm very happy with what
I drive. I drive a nice little family sedan with leather interior. I actually
did entertain buying the car in a different American country as I could get
twin turbos there but stayed 40 miles south of that border and bought in the
United States. Still, what I enjoy most is evenings on my old Harley and nice
mountain roads! ... also a manual but just five speed.

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On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:48 PM, Liam Proven <lproven@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9 May 2011 15:40, Fred A. Miller <fmiller@lightlink.com> wrote:
>> On 05/09/2011 12:45 AM, Douglas S. Saylor wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> I think there seems, with some, they want what they have/had. They don't
>>> want new/better cause they got THIS figured out. I get it, sorta, but
>>> newer=better pretty much 99% of the time that just IS the reality. Is
>>> there a learning curve that might be uncomfortable? Of course. But I
>>> guess if learning new stuff is considered a "problem" ...I'm gunna have
>>> to agree to disagree with those folks.
>>>
>>>> > Kill it how? By no longer supporting a superseded piece of code? Well
>>>> > what else should they do?
>>>> >
>>>> > Why would a modern distro cling to outdated legacy code?
>>>> >
>>>> > Seriously, I'm curious, why?
>>> I guess this goes to some people wanting what they got without change so
>>> they never have to learn new stuff <sigh>. I guess if you like old
>>> motorcycles, cars, etc, you can do that. Computers, software ...that
>>> world is obsolete in 6-months!
>>
>> It has nothing to do with what's "new," but that what is new is of lower
>> functionality
>> and configurability than that which was replaced. It is never a good
>> thing to remove
>> them.....period! For example, take a good long look at the new KDE for
>> an example
>> of all the graphic "goodies" many want yet with the configurability and
>> functionality
>> that is mandated by more than a casual user who only reads email and web
>> pages.
>
> That's a fair point, actually.
>
> Yes, Unity is a bit simpler. There's a whole bunch of stuff it doesn't
> do, AFAICS, that the old system did.
>
> But then, there's a whole bunch of stuff Mac OS X doesn't do that
> Windows does, any yet, it's an entirely usable OS.
>
> Sometimes, simplification can show you the things you didn't realise
> were actually inessential.
>
> I can certainly see how some people's workflow will be impeded by
> Unity as opposed to GNOME 2. Mine isn't, so far, but some will.
>
> But it works and it also comes with cool new facilities.
>
> And at the end of the day, it's less like Windows. I work with Windows
> all day every day. Anything that gives me a break from that on my own
> computer is good, and it's also good for Canonical because there is
> less for MICROS~1 to sue over.
>
>
>
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Less for Micr0$0ft to sue over and more to knock off the the next
incarnation of their bug generator.

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On 05/10/2011 01:06 AM, Ernest Doub wrote:

/snip/

But then, there's a whole bunch of stuff Mac OS X doesn't do that
Windows does, any yet, it's an entirely usable OS.

/snip/

I've seen a number of more-or-less appreciative comments here relative
to the Mac gui, and apparently Ubuntu is aiming in that direction. It
should be remembered that the Mac is aimed at a specific audience,
which it admittedly serves very well: that is the writing and publishing
industry, with its corollaries layout and print design. I am not a Mac
user, so there may be other things that it does fairly well, but I don't
ever remember hearing of any scientific applications designed for it.
Where is the AutoCad, the Pro-E, the Agilent EEsof, etc.? I suppose it
must

have a spreadsheet--it has the Microsoft Office suite--but that's almost
a second thought. And have you ever heard of anyone seriously writing
code on a Mac? Or using one as a digital controller? Or a server?
Sure, Linux

has to catch up with some of these types of things, but it has not painted
itself into a corner, like Mac seems to have. If the Mac were anywhere near
as versatile as Windows, it wouldn't be sitting with only 10% or so of the
market. So why is Ubuntu trying so hard to emulate Mac? Huh?

--doug



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On 5/10/2011 12:58 AM, Doug wrote:
> If the Mac were anywhere near as versatile as Windows,
> it wouldn't be sitting with only 10% or so of the
> market. So why is Ubuntu trying so hard to emulate Mac? Huh?

I want to meet the people they did their research with. I want to know
which idiot decided it was more ergonomic to force everything to the
left instead of the right. Even though humans look left to right they
favor moving right to left. Apparently it's more ergonomic and fitting
to move the mouse more to action a menu on the left than to action a
menu on the right.

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On 10 May 2011 06:58, Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> wrote:
> ...
> And have you ever heard of anyone seriously writing
> code on a Mac?

A Mac is the machine of choice for very many Ruby on Rails developers.
Not that this has anything to do with the merits of Unity.

Colin

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Give the AVERAGE automobile driver
(cost, repairs aside) the option to have manual or automatic
transmission MOST will choose NOT to choose gear selection: automatic is
preferred by most (I HATE automatic transmission BTW)


Maybe in the US.... But not the sane side of the Atlantic


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