On Sun, 2011-05-08 at 19:43 +0100, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 8 May 2011 00:21, compdoc <compdoc@hotrodpc.com> wrote:
> >>It's pathetic and it's childish.
> >>
> >>Just deal with it, learn the new, and move on.
> >
> >
> > Expressing an opinion, in life and in a mailing list, is never pathetic or
> > childish. Our talking about it is how we deal with it. This is how people do
> > this sort of thing.
>
> I'm not saying that expressing the opinion is childish.
>
> I'm saying that the opinion itself is childish.
>
> > If enough of us find Unity is a step backwards, then maybe something is
> > wrong with the direction Ubuntu is headed.
>
> Who says it's anything to do with existing users?
>
> ISTM that it's an attempt to simplify the GUI, make it more
> phone/tablet-like, to win /new/ users. If the current ones don't like
> it, well, tough.
>
> There are a billion-odd Windows users out there to convert. 99.9% or
> so of the world's computer users run Windows. THEY are the target, not
> present Ubuntisti.
>
>
> > If enough of us find Unity useful
> > or even better than gnome, then Ubuntu is going the right way.
>
> Honestly? If every existing user deserted, so long as more new ones
> came on board then left, I don't think they'd mind at all.
>
> > We are after all, the users and supporters and maintainers of Ubuntu.
> > Shouldn't we be allowed to voice our opinions?
>
> Well, yes, sure. But this is not a democracy. Never was. It's a
> dictatorship, under a self-appointed dictator-for-life. Happily,
> though, he is a benevolent one.
>
> > Without us, Ubuntu would become another abandoned fork.
>
> Not if a hundred million new users descended on it, no.

But that does abandon the old "Meritocracy" concept, where the search of
the "Right Thing" is the Holy Grail, as those of higher merit occupy the
higher rungs of Power and Authority. And, like the Good Parent Model,
Power and Authority has attendant and equal amount of Responsibility
towards those who are held subject to higher powers.

But, telling some one of a different perspective to fark off, if they
don't like things, is to completely devalue the person, if not just the
relationship. OTOH, that goes for both sides of the relationship coin.
So, if someone occupies the higher rungs of the Meritocracy, maybe we
could consider that they just might know something that we don't. You
know, "give the Devil his due". Hopefully, some sense of moderation and
accommodation can be found in the middle ground. As it is, I can just
hold back to 10.4 and enjoy life as it is. There is, thankfully, always
that. Ric

--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256


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On Sunday 08 May 2011 08:59:58 pm Liam Proven wrote:
> > a) let the people know they don't like it
>
> Why? Why should they care? You're not a paying customer. You're a
> freeloader. We all are.

That's where commercial software is superior to "free" software. This being
said, there are FOSS developpers that do care about those who use their work.

But if really Mr. Shuttleworth does not care about the people using his
system, no problem, I'll have used one version of it then changed again.


> Some people wanted to keep KDE3 alive 'cos they didn't like KDE4. It
> failed, pretty much.

It's a little early to say that. I'm using it just now and I don't feel it
failed at all. As to it's future it's more diffcult to say.

> Why move? What is so difficult about adjusting?

I don't see what there is to "adjust". I don't want to work the "Unity way"
and I don't want to work the "Gnome 3 way", just as I don't want to work the
Windows way. Why don't you buy Windows and ajust, it's just like Ubuntu: it's
master will tell you "where you should want to go today". Ok, this master
will ask you to pay for this information, if money is your problem.


> Kill it how? By no longer supporting a superseded piece of code? Well
> what else should they do?

Continue to support fine working code until their alpha-stage product is ready
to use. May I say that IBM supported OS/2 until 2006 and Microsoft supported
XP until Windows seven?

> Why would a modern distro cling to outdated legacy code?
>
> Seriously, I'm curious, why?

If it's better than shiny new buggy stuff, it would make sense. As another
example, Serenity System still _sells_ "outdated legacy code".

Thierry


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On Sun, May 08, 2011 at 07:59:58PM +0100, Liam Proven wrote:

.........snip.......
>
> I'm telling them to grow up, not shut up. :¬)

Not true. See your comment below.

> >> > Just deal with it, learn the new, and move on. That's what adults do.

That's telling them to shut up and stop complaining.

........snip......

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On Sun, 2011-05-08 at 19:59 +0100, Liam Proven wrote:

> I'm telling them to grow up, not shut up. :¬)

There IS a difference!

> Nope, because the users don't really know.

AND even if legacy Ubuntu WAS what users wanted, legacy Ubuntu has not
attracting a lot of users ...in the big picture. "We" are a
drop-in-the-bucket. SO FAR, I have not been able to give a reason for
Windows friends CASUAL computer users to switch to Linux. So far Ubuntu
11.04 might change that.

> Good for you. 'Bye, then!

AND why feel bad for those that leave since there really is so many
choices of highly customizable versions of Linux. Wana live in the past?
Get Debian! (I tried it, yikes! But others love it)

> Why? Why should they care? You're not a paying customer. You're a
> freeloader. We all are.

Bitingly true ...and funny to imagine those that would be insulted
<grin>

> Is it? Really? Why? I see no question. GNOME 2 doesn't have a future.
> GNOME has a future, and for now, it's GNOME 3. GNOME 2 is history.

I think there seems, with some, they want what they have/had. They don't
want new/better cause they got THIS figured out. I get it, sorta, but
newer=better pretty much 99% of the time that just IS the reality. Is
there a learning curve that might be uncomfortable? Of course. But I
guess if learning new stuff is considered a "problem" ...I'm gunna have
to agree to disagree with those folks.

> Kill it how? By no longer supporting a superseded piece of code? Well
> what else should they do?
>
> Why would a modern distro cling to outdated legacy code?
>
> Seriously, I'm curious, why?

I guess this goes to some people wanting what they got without change so
they never have to learn new stuff <sigh>. I guess if you like old
motorcycles, cars, etc, you can do that. Computers, software ...that
world is obsolete in 6-months!



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On 05/09/2011 12:45 AM, Douglas S. Saylor wrote:

[snip]

> I think there seems, with some, they want what they have/had. They don't
> want new/better cause they got THIS figured out. I get it, sorta, but
> newer=better pretty much 99% of the time that just IS the reality. Is
> there a learning curve that might be uncomfortable? Of course. But I
> guess if learning new stuff is considered a "problem" ...I'm gunna have
> to agree to disagree with those folks.
>
>> > Kill it how? By no longer supporting a superseded piece of code? Well
>> > what else should they do?
>> >
>> > Why would a modern distro cling to outdated legacy code?
>> >
>> > Seriously, I'm curious, why?
> I guess this goes to some people wanting what they got without change so
> they never have to learn new stuff <sigh>. I guess if you like old
> motorcycles, cars, etc, you can do that. Computers, software ...that
> world is obsolete in 6-months!

It has nothing to do with what's "new," but that what is new is of lower
functionality
and configurability than that which was replaced. It is never a good
thing to remove
them.....period! For example, take a good long look at the new KDE for
an example
of all the graphic "goodies" many want yet with the configurability and
functionality
that is mandated by more than a casual user who only reads email and web
pages.

Fred


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On 05/09/2011 09:40 AM, Fred A. Miller wrote:

On 05/09/2011 12:45 AM, Douglas S. Saylor wrote:

[snip]


I think there seems, with some, they want what they have/had. They don't
want new/better cause they got THIS figured out. I get it, sorta, but
newer=better pretty much 99% of the time that just IS the reality. Is
there a learning curve that might be uncomfortable? Of course. But I
guess if learning new stuff is considered a "problem" ...I'm gunna have
to agree to disagree with those folks.


Kill it how? By no longer supporting a superseded piece of code? Well
what else should they do?

Why would a modern distro cling to outdated legacy code?

Seriously, I'm curious, why?

I guess this goes to some people wanting what they got without change so
they never have to learn new stuff<sigh>. I guess if you like old
motorcycles, cars, etc, you can do that. Computers, software ...that
world is obsolete in 6-months!


It has nothing to do with what's "new," but that what is new is of lower
functionality
and configurability than that which was replaced. It is never a good
thing to remove
them.....period! For example, take a good long look at the new KDE for
an example
of all the graphic "goodies" many want yet with the configurability and
functionality
that is mandated by more than a casual user who only reads email and web
pages.

Fred




If you think back a couple years or so, when KDE 4.x was first
"released" it completely sucked. It was pretty much in a beta state, if
not alpha. Now you point to it as a good example. With KDE 4.x there was
no option to revert to the older version until the new one "grew up". At
least for the near future you can revert to Gnome if Unity doesn't work
for you. I say to at least give Unity a chance instead of going off half
cocked.


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_ _... ..._ _
_._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._

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On Mon, 2011-05-09 at 10:40 -0400, Fred A. Miller wrote:

> It has nothing to do with what's "new," but that what is new is of lower
> functionality
> and configurability than that which was replaced. It is never a good
> thing to remove
> them.....period! For example, take a good long look at the new KDE for
> an example
> of all the graphic "goodies" many want yet with the configurability and
> functionality
> that is mandated by more than a casual user who only reads email and web
> pages.

Options & choices can confuse & frustrate, as counterintuitive as that
may sound, it's true! Ever heard of a book: The Paradox of Choice - Why
More Is Less by Barry Schwartz. The target audience for Ubuntu 11.04 has
NEVER seen Linux. Give THEM (we don't count) too many unfamiliar
choices; they won't choose Linux. Give the AVERAGE automobile driver
(cost, repairs aside) the option to have manual or automatic
transmission MOST will choose NOT to choose gear selection: automatic is
preferred by most (I HATE automatic transmission BTW)



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On Monday 09 May 2011 08:18:37 pm Douglas S. Saylor wrote:
> Give the AVERAGE automobile driver
> (cost, repairs aside) the option to have manual or automatic
> transmission MOST will choose NOT to choose gear selection: automatic is
> preferred by most (I HATE automatic transmission BTW)

Sorry. Give the _american_ average automobile driver (maybe UK or Australia
too). Here in Switzerland it would be the opposite.

Luckily you can choose when buy your car

Greetings,

Thierry


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On 9 May 2011 19:53, Thierry de Coulon <tcoulon@decoulon.ch> wrote:
> On Monday 09 May 2011 08:18:37 pm Douglas S. Saylor wrote:
>> Give the AVERAGE automobile driver
>> (cost, repairs aside) the option to have manual or automatic
>> transmission MOST will choose NOT to choose gear selection: automatic is
>> preferred by most (I HATE automatic transmission BTW)
>
> Sorry. Give the _american_ average automobile driver (maybe UK or Australia
> too). Here in Switzerland it would be the opposite.

Also in the UK most would choose manual. We don't want any sissy
things like automatics here.

Colin

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On Mon, 2011-05-09 at 20:03 +0100, Colin Law wrote:
> On 9 May 2011 19:53, Thierry de Coulon <tcoulon@decoulon.ch> wrote:
> > On Monday 09 May 2011 08:18:37 pm Douglas S. Saylor wrote:
> >> Give the AVERAGE automobile driver
> >> (cost, repairs aside) the option to have manual or automatic
> >> transmission MOST will choose NOT to choose gear selection: automatic is
> >> preferred by most (I HATE automatic transmission BTW)
> >
> > Sorry. Give the _american_ average automobile driver (maybe UK or Australia
> > too). Here in Switzerland it would be the opposite.
>
> Also in the UK most would choose manual. We don't want any sissy
> things like automatics here.

I can burn rubber in second gear, with a hopped up 350 V8, in my 1977
Chevy pickup, coupled to a good automatic. Somehow, somewhere, all the
smog control gadgets disappeared... like magic. Beats me! With the cost
of fuel now, I'm afraid to start it. <shrugs> Ric


--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256


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