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Old 02-10-2008, 01:36 PM
Ari Torhamo
 
Default About informing others of the list guidelines

For some, who represent a vocal and, I believe, a very small minority
(is there really more than one), there seems to be something wrong with
having a few useful guidelines for posting to mailing lists and having
more experienced users informing less experienced about them. I've been
subscribed to this list almost from the beginning, and this has
generally worked very well here. If you start a new thread for every
message you send on a subject, you are told, hopefully in a friendly
manner, how this makes following the conversation more difficult for
others. If you 'hijack' an existing thread, you are told what problems
that brings. Even the somewhat controversial request to avoid
top-posting has been mostly well received - it's been debated a few
times strongly, but people haven't been really attacking each other.

People generally seem to appreciate to be able to learn efficient ways
to work together. I myself am grateful for the lessons I have received
here for effective communication. When I came to this list, I always top
posted, wrote uninformative subject lines for my messages, was
unspecific when I described a problem, I may have even... ehem... sent
in an HTML message or two, and so on :-) I thank those who took the time
to tell me a better way. This matter also isn't in anyway specific to
mailing lists. It's the same everywhere where we co-operate - bug
reporting, forums, developer environments, etc.

All this makes me wonder, what is it really that makes some few people
to have an issue with this. Is it a pursuit of the idea of ultimate
personal freedom? I think that when one is a cranky
I-do-as-I-like-and-listen-to-nobody (and wants others to be that way
too), the freedom has not been found.


Regards,

Ari Torhamo


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Old 02-14-2008, 06:21 AM
Kristian Rink
 
Default About informing others of the list guidelines

Am Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:36:21 +0200
schrieb Ari Torhamo <ari.torhamo@saunalahti.fi>:

> People generally seem to appreciate to be able to learn efficient ways
> to work together. I myself am grateful for the lessons I have received
> here for effective communication. When I came to this list, I always
> top posted, wrote uninformative subject lines for my messages, was
> unspecific when I described a problem, I may have even... ehem... sent
> in an HTML message or two, and so on :-) I thank those who took the
> time to tell me a better way.

You're right.

Discussions like this whole "karl-desktop" thread are seriously
disturbing to me, also because, well, there has been more than one like
these threads around here just recently where, obviously started by
someone who posted a message with a pointless subject or a message
including HTML or a message hijacking another thread, people end up in
infinite discussions about formalities, leaving aside the only thing
that actually should be taken care of first: helping the person that
asked a question, no matter how "formally bad" this question has been
expressed.

Seeing this is sad on an Ubuntu list as indeed this isn't new - it's
been the same way on newsgroups and other mailing list for ages -
chances to get help sending an HTML-formatted mail to debian-user is
rather low. Too bad if you're using an ISP end-user webmailer that
doesn't allow for sending anything else. I like the idea of netiquette,
and I think there are good reasons why to kindly ask people to (not) do
some things. But maybe we should focus on what things mainly are about
- helping others. So, perhaps, it would be better to ignore questions
we can't answer and provide "formal hints" as a small note ("by the
way: ...") _after_ providing substantials hints to a question asked by
some user on that list? This would hopefully keep endless "formal"
discussions from happening...

Just my €0.02 on that.
Cheers,
Kristian

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Kristian Rink * http://zimmer428.net * http://flickr.com/photos/z428/
jab: kawazu@jabber.ccc.de * icq: 48874445 * fon: ++49 176 2447 2771
"One dreaming alone, it will be only a dream; many dreaming together
is the beginning of a new reality." (Hundertwasser)

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Old 02-14-2008, 01:46 PM
Leonard Chatagnier
 
Default About informing others of the list guidelines

--- Kristian Rink <kristian@zimmer428.net> wrote:

> Am Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:36:21 +0200
> schrieb Ari Torhamo <ari.torhamo@saunalahti.fi>:
>
> > People generally seem to appreciate to be able to
> learn efficient ways
> > to work together. I myself am grateful for the
> lessons I have received
> > here for effective communication. When I came to
> this list, I always
> > top posted, wrote uninformative subject lines for
> my messages, was
> > unspecific when I described a problem, I may have
> even... ehem... sent
> > in an HTML message or two, and so on :-) I thank
> those who took the
> > time to tell me a better way.
>
> You're right.
>
> Discussions like this whole "karl-desktop" thread
> are seriously
> disturbing to me, also because, well, there has been
> more than one like
> these threads around here just recently where,
> obviously started by
> someone who posted a message with a pointless
> subject or a message
> including HTML or a message hijacking another
> thread, people end up in
> infinite discussions about formalities, leaving
> aside the only thing
> that actually should be taken care of first: helping
> the person that
> asked a question, no matter how "formally bad" this
> question has been
> expressed.
>
> Seeing this is sad on an Ubuntu list as indeed this
> isn't new - it's
> been the same way on newsgroups and other mailing
> list for ages -
> chances to get help sending an HTML-formatted mail
> to debian-user is
> rather low. Too bad if you're using an ISP end-user
> webmailer that
> doesn't allow for sending anything else. I like the
> idea of netiquette,
> and I think there are good reasons why to kindly ask
> people to (not) do
> some things. But maybe we should focus on what
> things mainly are about
> - helping others. So, perhaps, it would be better to
> ignore questions
> we can't answer and provide "formal hints" as a
> small note ("by the
> way: ...") _after_ providing substantials hints to a
> question asked by
> some user on that list? This would hopefully keep
> endless "formal"
> discussions from happening...
>
> Just my ?0.02 on that.
> Cheers,
> Kristian
>
Kristian,
Your $0.02 are worth a million dollars. These flames
or whatever there called have increased my user mail
10 fold and they are not helping anyone solve any
issues.
Wouldn't it be nice if every serious post had this
many helpful replies to assist the person asking for
help. I personally would like to see these just go
away and people just not reply to them which would
make them go away. But, I'm doing the same thing
aren't I? Sorry, just couldn't help it.


Leonard Chatagnier
lenc5570@sbcglobal.net

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