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Old 02-06-2008, 04:50 AM
"Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek"
 
Default Echo future

On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 23:06 +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:

Martin Sourada wrote:
Easier would be making tango-compiliant theme to play well with GNOME apps.


That would be pointless. We are offering an alternative that is
stylistically (coincidentally) in between the tango style and oxygen
style. I personally think that Echo can work quite good together (to
some extent) with both, while tango and oxygen really don't work
together at all...



I see no reason, why they should work together. Tango is GNOME-related,
Oxygen is KDE-related.


Probably, if someone uses mix of GNOME and KDE apps, will like Echo,
but... It sadly doesn't play well with Tangoish style of GNOME.


With Oxygen probably too. Echo has too less borders and gloss, compared
to Oxygen. Compared to Tango - too less gradients.


It's impossible to do a multi-DE icon set...


Some apps are using hardcoded pixmaps, but better are tangoish, than
old-GNOME-1.x.


Hard-coded pixmaps are bad, if you keep fillings bugs about those, the
situation might improve for all the people trying to make their own icon
themes (and guessing from look at gnome-look.org there are a lot of
them).


Listen, sometimes people don't want to create own icons for apps. Most
of apps are placing icons in hicolor/, but they were never replaced
(I've never seen ie. own Banshee icons).



You cannot theme them, so style will be mixing.


Yep and that's bad. Not everyone likes
tango/oxygen/echo/bluecurve/whatever and we need to make it possible for
people to use whatever theme they like but with consistent look
throughout the desktop.


Echo has more vibrant pallette (which partly I like, but the turqoise),
Tango has more... "dirty" pallette and concrete styling guidelines -
thick borders, gradient, gloss...


Echo is so... not plain... subtle.

It could even look good imo, if we could drop perspective. Both Tango
and Oxy are using plain perspective. It's good because there will be no
inconsistence in ie. Nautilus.




But like I said before, while Echo icon theme has a lot of fans and
followers we are short of contributors, which slows down the development
to such extent that every now and then people question the possibility
of it ever being complete.


Also has antifans :> .


And I personally think, you being one of the persons who like pursuing
issues, you could probably help a lot with making the ToDo page, given
that you already listed some of that in your tickets and here on
art-list.


I'll try to file more from time to time, like I do every day for Firefox
Trunk and Thunderbird Trunk.


This year my activity in BZ's is growing.

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Old 02-06-2008, 07:41 AM
Kelly Miller
 
Default Echo future

Martin Sourada wrote:

On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 23:06 +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:


Martin Sourada wrote:
Easier would be making tango-compiliant theme to play well with GNOME apps.



That would be pointless. We are offering an alternative that is
stylistically (coincidentally) in between the tango style and oxygen
style. I personally think that Echo can work quite good together (to
some extent) with both, while tango and oxygen really don't work
together at all..
For that very reason, I've been seriously thinking about making a
blended icon theme that works well with both Qt and GTK+ apps, though
I'm not an artist. I actually wrote a program of sorts that fed me a
spreadsheet full of the Gnome icon names and whether they are symlinks
to others or not (the purpose being so I can match KDE icons to Gnome
icons, and figure out what symlinks to make that'll allow such an icon
theme to work in both environments at the same time).


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Old 02-06-2008, 08:58 AM
Andreas Nilsson
 
Default Echo future

Martin Sourada wrote:

On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 23:06 +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:


Martin Sourada wrote:
Easier would be making tango-compiliant theme to play well with GNOME apps.


That would be pointless. We are offering an alternative that is
stylistically (coincidentally) in between the tango style and oxygen
style. I personally think that Echo can work quite good together (to
some extent) with both, while tango and oxygen really don't work
together at all...


Hey Martin!
I'm not sure I agree that the oxygen-style and tango-style clash that
hard and we're slowly trying to move closer to the oxygen-style. The
latest Firefox 3 stuff is a small step in that direction (+ our HighRes
experiments [1], [2]).


And yeah, I would be rather happy if Livio's flames calmed down a bit
too and really hope it haven't put the tango-project in a bad light. :/
Some apps are using hardcoded pixmaps, but better are tangoish, than
old-GNOME-1.x.




Hard-coded pixmaps are bad, if you keep fillings bugs about those, the
situation might improve for all the people trying to make their own icon
themes (and guessing from look at gnome-look.org there are a lot of
them).

It's also mega-important for HighContrast where the interface will be
quite useless if hardcoded.


1. http://jimmac.musichall.cz/i.php?i=Highres
2. http://jimmac.musichall.cz/i.php?i=Tango-NG
- Andreas

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Old 02-06-2008, 09:19 AM
Martin Sourada
 
Default Echo future

On Wed, 2008-02-06 at 10:58 +0100, Andreas Nilsson wrote:
> Martin Sourada wrote:
> > On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 23:06 +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
> >
> >> Martin Sourada wrote:
> >> Easier would be making tango-compiliant theme to play well with GNOME apps.
> >>
> > That would be pointless. We are offering an alternative that is
> > stylistically (coincidentally) in between the tango style and oxygen
> > style. I personally think that Echo can work quite good together (to
> > some extent) with both, while tango and oxygen really don't work
> > together at all...
> >
> Hey Martin!
Hi Andreas,

> I'm not sure I agree that the oxygen-style and tango-style clash that
> hard and we're slowly trying to move closer to the oxygen-style. The
> latest Firefox 3 stuff is a small step in that direction (+ our HighRes
> experiments [1], [2]).
>
Well, after all it's my opinion... It's based mostly on the fact, that
to me it seems that while tango! focuses more on readability, clarity,
usability and simplicity, oxygen seems to aim to look more realistic and
shiny, while Echo is somewhere in between, but with slightly different
perspective. And yeah, I saw the highres experiments, they look really
great, can't wait for high-dpi screens Btw. is the status page at
freedesktop [1] actual for oxygen icons or is there some more fresh
source (I might be comparing outdated versions...)?

> And yeah, I would be rather happy if Livio's flames calmed down a bit
> too and really hope it haven't put the tango-project in a bad light. :/
Certainly not for me. What Livio presents are his opinions and I do not
connect it in anyway to the tango! project (save for accepting the fact
he likes it which is not a bad thing at all).

> >> Some apps are using hardcoded pixmaps, but better are tangoish, than
> >> old-GNOME-1.x.
> >>
> >>
> > Hard-coded pixmaps are bad, if you keep fillings bugs about those, the
> > situation might improve for all the people trying to make their own icon
> > themes (and guessing from look at gnome-look.org there are a lot of
> > them).
> >
> It's also mega-important for HighContrast where the interface will be
> quite useless if hardcoded.
>
Yeah, I totally agree.

> 1. http://jimmac.musichall.cz/i.php?i=Highres
> 2. http://jimmac.musichall.cz/i.php?i=Tango-NG
> - Andreas
>

References:
[1] http://people.freedesktop.org/~jimmac/icons/


Martin
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Old 02-06-2008, 12:06 PM
"Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek"
 
Default Echo future

You probably do not understand why I'm so tango lover.

GNOME has ugly icon theme, until the tango folks began their work.
Almost all apps are now following the style, which is being common for
GNOME (like the Aquaish icons are common for OSX).


Some apps, until "art revolution" had ugly icons, even non-GNOME-1x.

I think that making everything to make common style for GNOME is good idea.

Many icon themes were known: Crux, GNOME, Bluecurve. Tango tries to make
them look consistent, even, when they're not blur, but most green, etc.


Foglie, Foxtrot, Crux, Mist - only few icon themes, which have own style
for folder and every icon with folder emblem and are inheriting GNOME.


They look very nice.

Try Echo now. Looks inconsistent with Tango and with Oxygen.

Echo is subtle, Tango has thick borders, Oxygen is glossy.

GNOME and KDE always were different - different GUIs, different people
targeted...


Difference are good here, because you can see the power of choice.

I know, splitting Echo for "only-Oxygen" and "only-Tango" would be
stupid, but something between doesn't integrate neither with Tango nor
Oxygen.


"Livio is flaming"... Well known quote.

I want to make desktop environment consistent, not mixed or split.

See what bad spliting makes and what's good in merging back?

Beryl was fork, now it's part of Compiz Fusion. Features of Beryl, high
quality code of Compiz. Together are making mature product.


I wonder if some beautiful day you'll join Tango.

With your enthusiasm to work you would be very appreciated Tango
contributors.


PS: I'm talking mostly about Tango, because I'm using GNOME and
contributon to GNOME. I think the differences between DEs are good.


See ya later!

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Old 02-06-2008, 01:43 PM
Kelly Miller
 
Default Echo future

Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:

It's impossible to do a multi-DE icon set...
I'm sorry for using such crude language out of the blue, but that is
BULLSHIT. KDE and Gnome do not have that different an icon system that
they cannot be used in tandem. In fact, what you're saying is that
people working on unifying the appearance of the applications of both
desktops (like the guys working on QtCurve and the various KDE-to-Gnome
and Gnome-to-KDE style ports) should just give up, as what they're doing
cannot be done, even though it has been.


If KDE and Gnome cannot share one unified icon theme, how do you explain
nuoveXT? Tango itself works pretty decently across both as well, and
there's work ongoing to get Crystal SVG to work in Gnome as well.


After all, I thought this very "impossibility" was the point of the
freedesktop.org icon standard and icon-naming-utils...


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Old 02-06-2008, 02:21 PM
"Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek"
 
Default Echo future

Kelly Miller wrote:

Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:

It's impossible to do a multi-DE icon set...

I'm sorry for using such crude language out of the blue, but that is
BULLSHIT. KDE and Gnome do not have that different an icon system that
they cannot be used in tandem. In fact, what you're saying is that
people working on unifying the appearance of the applications of both
desktops (like the guys working on QtCurve and the various KDE-to-Gnome
and Gnome-to-KDE style ports) should just give up, as what they're doing
cannot be done, even though it has been.


QtCurve doesn't work well with GTK.


If KDE and Gnome cannot share one unified icon theme, how do you explain
nuoveXT? Tango itself works pretty decently across both as well, and
there's work ongoing to get Crystal SVG to work in Gnome as well.


nuoveXT doesn't count. It provides many not needed icons.

And again, KDE < 4 didn't applied to FD's icon naming spec. It needed
many symlinks (and it needs them even for cursors).



After all, I thought this very "impossibility" was the point of the
freedesktop.org icon standard and icon-naming-utils...


I don't think we need to join GNOME and KDE together to work on something.

Those are almost whole systems (I know, same kernel can be used),
they're so different and other people choose GNOME, other KDE.


Most GNOME people don't want KDE's features and appearance, and vice versa.

If someone mixes them, his problem.

^ My opinion.

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Old 02-06-2008, 03:01 PM
Kelly Miller
 
Default Echo future

Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:

QtCurve doesn't work well with GTK.

Funny, it works perfectly fine when I use it.
Most GNOME people don't want KDE's features and appearance, and vice
versa.


If someone mixes them, his problem.
Go and tell that to the people who run KDE and use Firefox and/or
Thunderbird as their main browser/email client. I guess they'd rather
have their principle programs stick out like sore thumbs.


Can I predict that you run Gnome as your main desktop? I've noticed
that this sort of attitude seems to come from Gnome-centric people who
feel that having anything Qt-related on their system is a corruption of
FLOSS, and ignore anyone who tries to run both at the same time.


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Old 02-06-2008, 03:14 PM
"Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek"
 
Default Echo future

Kelly Miller wrote:

Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:

QtCurve doesn't work well with GTK.

Funny, it works perfectly fine when I use it.

Most GNOME people don't want KDE's features and appearance, and vice
versa.

If someone mixes them, his problem.

Go and tell that to the people who run KDE and use Firefox and/or
Thunderbird as their main browser/email client. I guess they'd rather
have their principle programs stick out like sore thumbs.

Can I predict that you run Gnome as your main desktop? I've noticed that
this sort of attitude seems to come from Gnome-centric people who feel
that having anything Qt-related on their system is a corruption of
FLOSS, and ignore anyone who tries to run both at the same time.


Doesn't really matter, what I use and like. I like KDE, thats reason I
put lipstik into repo.


But KDE and GNOME are targeted into slightly different group of users.

KDE users require more, GNOME users require less features and settings.

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Old 02-06-2008, 03:22 PM
Nicu Buculei
 
Default Echo future

Kelly Miller wrote:
Go and tell that to the people who run KDE and use Firefox and/or
Thunderbird as their main browser/email client. I guess they'd rather
have their principle programs stick out like sore thumbs.


Can I predict that you run Gnome as your main desktop? I've noticed
that this sort of attitude seems to come from Gnome-centric people who
feel that having anything Qt-related on their system is a corruption of
FLOSS, and ignore anyone who tries to run both at the same time.


Is not a corruption of FLOSS, is a break of the visual consistency, an
unneeded waste of resources (have in RAM the supporting libraries for
both toolkits) and and an awful increase in the startup speed of the
apps using the *other* toolkit.


--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com
Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/
Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org
my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro

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