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Old 05-10-2010, 09:23 PM
Markus Schönhaber
 
Default 10.04? No thanks, I give up!

10.05.2010 22:39, Robert Spanjaard:

> On Mon, 10 May 2010 15:45:49 -0400, Tom H wrote:

>> You did not have to move to 10.04 as soon as it was released! But you
>> will have to move away from 9.04 when 10.10 comes out because 9.04
>> support will end then...
>
> That doesn't mean he has to move away from it at all. It's not like his
> OS will suddenly stop working or something like that.

No, it will not stop working, and I don't consider it likely that
someone standing behind him, pointing a gun at his head, will force him
to upgrade.
Nevertheless, Tom's advice is sensible. Running an OS for which no
security fixes are released any-more exposes oneself and - more
importantly - others to danger.

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Old 05-11-2010, 01:17 AM
Tom H
 
Default 10.04? No thanks, I give up!

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 4:39 PM, Robert Spanjaard <spamtrap@arumes.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 10 May 2010 15:45:49 -0400, Tom H wrote:
>
>> 2010/5/10 Edgars Å*mits <ed.smits@gmail.com>:
>>> I finally give up on 10.04, it's not worth the hassle of trying to get
>>> my video output fixed. When last I wrote I was happily working away in
>>> the wonderful new 10.04 world (not an upgrade, a clean install), when
> [...]
>>> to sort them out with help from this list, but this time I give up. I
>>> don't want to be a computer geek, I just want to load an OS that works
>>> as I expect it to.
>>
>> You did not have to move to 10.04 as soon as it was released! But you
>> will have to move away from 9.04 when 10.10 comes out because 9.04
>> support will end then...
>
> That doesn't mean he has to move away from it at all. It's not like his
> OS will suddenly stop working or something like that.

Of course, it will not stop working but there will no longer be any
security updates - or updates of any kind, I am not sure - so it would
not be the safest way to be connected to a network.

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Old 05-11-2010, 01:26 AM
chris
 
Default 10.04? No thanks, I give up!

On Mon, 2010-05-10 at 21:21 +0100, zongo saiba wrote:

> > > 2010/5/10 Edgars Å*mits <ed.smits@gmail.com>:
> > >
> > > > I finally give up on 10.04, it's not worth the hassle of trying to get
> > > > my video output fixed. When last I wrote I was happily working away in
<snip>
> > >
> > I always have problens with the video and totem. So I still with
> > hardy.
>
> What I would like to understand really is why regressive bugs? I had
> sound in 9.10 on my external speakers and I could use my internal
> microphone out the box. In 10.04, I had to modify alsa-base.conf in
> order to use my external speakers in such a way that now I am unable to
> use my internal microphone. The point being not the issue of not using
> my internal microphone but more why a regressive bug ? How can that
> happen and most importantly why?
>
>

Until the Ubuntu developers get it through their (collective) heads,
that releasing a new version every six months, is always going to give
buggy unstable distors , then we as consumers are going to be stuck with
these raw unfinished products.

8.04 is stable works across all my machines (6 in total) and does not
give any hardware issues.
9.04 is becoming stable but from there on out I have had nothing but
problems and regressive bugs
As I work, I cannot afford to spend hours triaging these issues

Cheers the kiwi




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Old 05-11-2010, 01:27 AM
chris
 
Default 10.04? No thanks, I give up!

On Mon, 2010-05-10 at 21:22 +0300, Edgars Å*mits wrote:
> I finally give up on 10.04, it's not worth the hassle of trying to get
> my video output fixed. When last I wrote I was happily working away in

>
> just call me disgruntled...
>
> ED
>
No I will call you sensible.
Cheers the kiwi


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Old 05-11-2010, 05:57 AM
Knapp
 
Default 10.04? No thanks, I give up!

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 10:21 PM, zongo saiba <zongosaiba@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 2010-05-10 at 17:07 -0300, lcn.mustard wrote:
>> On 10-05-2010 16:45, Tom H wrote:
>> > 2010/5/10 Edgars Å*mits <ed.smits@gmail.com>:
>> >
>> > > I finally give up on 10.04, it's not worth the hassle of trying to get
>> > > my video output fixed. When last I wrote I was happily working away in
>> > > the wonderful new 10.04 world (not an upgrade, a clean install), when
>> > > after an upgrade Saturday I lost my video - all I could see was a
>> > > white screen with vertical stripes. I received some advice as to how
>> > > to fix this, none of it worked - I was even able to boot into a live
>> > > 10.04 session if I used the "nomodeset" graphics option, but wasn't
>> > > able to fix my problem. I don't quite understand how the new Grub2 is
>> > > better than the old one - I can't access it by any known keyboard
>> > > tricks that I know (tab, shift etc), and I can't manually edit it - I
>> > > tried, and ended up in a memtest hell...
>> > >
>> > > Tonight I finally gave up and decided to do a new install from the
>> > > Live disk using nomodeset, installed and rebooted like a trooper,
>> > > started doing upgrades etc, and didn't even do a kernel or driver
>> > > update when after a reboot I was back to a white screen, vertical
>> > > stripes.
>> > >
>> > > I'm going back to 9.04 tomorrow, life's too short to waste screwing
>> > > around with an OS, no matter how good it may be. I know I'm not the
>> > > only one out there with a Radeon Xpress 200M card in a Dell Inspiron
>> > > 1501 - there are lots of emails in the bug lists, but the bugs are all
>> > > listed as closed. This latest attempt on my part was on a clean,
>> > > vanilla install, so I know it's not something I've done, and if it is
>> > > then Ubuntu is no where near ready for the big time. I've been a happy
>> > > camper for over 5 years, sure, had some problems but usually I was
>> > > able to sort them out with help from this list, but this time I give
>> > > up. I don't want to be a computer geek, I just want to load an OS that
>> > > works as I expect it to.
>> > >
>> > You did not have to move to 10.04 as soon as it was released! But you
>> > will have to move away from 9.04 when 10.10 comes out because 9.04
>> > support will end then...
>> >
>> > I don't understand how you can blame grub2 for what seems to be a kms problem.
>> >
>> > Since nomodeset works when you boot from a Live CD, it should also
>> > work for your install.
>> >
>> > Did you google or post on this list to find out how to add nomodeset
>> > to your grub2 boot stanzas?
>> >
>> >
>> I always have problens with the video and totem. So I still with
>> hardy.
>
> What I would like to understand really is why regressive bugs? I had
> sound in 9.10 on my external speakers and I could use my internal
> microphone out the box. In 10.04, I had to modify alsa-base.conf in
> order to use my external speakers in such a way that now I am unable to
> use my internal microphone. The point being not the issue of not using
> my internal microphone but more why a regressive bug ? How can that
> happen and most importantly why?

http://catb.org/esr/writings/homesteading/
Read the Cathedral and the Bazaar to get a deeper understanding.
Basically Ubuntu has broken one of the golden rules of open source.
You develop and release based on goals not times.

To look at it from a different way. They are changing the whole boot
loader so that they can get under 10 seconds boots. This will break a
lot of stuff and of course all the other bits are changing as they are
improved or updated. All this breaks stuff. Open source is ALWAYS
changing, even when it does not need to. This leads to better stuff in
the long run but breaks stuff in the short run. You have to pick, new
and broken or old and stable. Ubuntu runs more to the new side.

Also a driver might be made 20% faster but that change breaks 3% of
the users' computers. That is not seen until it is released because
the programmers did not have that computer system in shop. They then
get a bug report and fix it. YOU must file that report or it will
never get fixed. That is how open source works.

--
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Massagen Arbeit in Gelsenkirchen Buer
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Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project.
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http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/

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Old 05-11-2010, 10:44 AM
Tom H
 
Default 10.04? No thanks, I give up!

On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Knapp <magick.crow@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 10:21 PM, zongo saiba <zongosaiba@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> What I would like to understand really is why regressive bugs? I had
>> sound in 9.10 on my external speakers and I could use my internal
>> microphone out the box. In 10.04, I had to modify alsa-base.conf in
>> order to use my external speakers in such a way that now I am unable to
>> use my internal microphone. The point being not the issue of not using
>> my internal microphone but more why a regressive bug ? How can that
>> happen and most importantly why?
>
> http://catb.org/esr/writings/homesteading/
> Read the Cathedral and the Bazaar to get a deeper understanding.
> Basically Ubuntu has broken one of the golden rules of open source.
> You develop and release based on goals not times.
>
> To look at it from a different way. They are changing the whole boot
> loader so that they can get under 10 seconds boots. This will break a
> lot of stuff and of course all the other bits are changing as they are
> improved or updated. All this breaks stuff. Open source is ALWAYS
> changing, even when it does not need to. This leads to better stuff in
> the long run but breaks stuff in the short run. You have to pick, new
> and broken or old and stable. Ubuntu runs more to the new side.
>
> Also a driver might be made 20% faster but that change breaks 3% of
> the users' computers. That is not seen until it is released because
> the programmers did not have that computer system in shop. They then
> get a bug report and fix it. YOU must file that report or it will
> never get fixed. That is how open source works.

I don't think that having a release every six months or so is a
problem, as long as the people who are installing it or upgrading to
it do not expect it to work without a hitch. Both Ubuntu and Fedora
releases follow a twice-yearly release schedule (more or less for
Fedora) and have teething problems when they are first published (in
the same way that OSX had when it was on a yearly schedule).

I take issue though with the Ubuntu model for LTS. It makes people
think that a release is OK as soon as it is published when in fact it
is only slightly less buggy, if at all, than Ubuntu's non-LTS
releases. I am at the moment in a permanent fight with my clients to
convince them to wait for 10.04.1 before I upgrade their servers. I
upgraded the boxes of a new client immediately after the release
because I would have lost/not gained him had I kept on saying "wait"
but it was a silly risk. Thankfully, they are running OK, probably
because the unstable stuff is generally pulled in by the desktop
tasksels or other desktop-related apps.

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Old 05-11-2010, 11:20 AM
Chan Chung Hang Christopher
 
Default 10.04? No thanks, I give up!

> I take issue though with the Ubuntu model for LTS. It makes people
> think that a release is OK as soon as it is published when in fact it
> is only slightly less buggy, if at all, than Ubuntu's non-LTS
> releases. I am at the moment in a permanent fight with my clients to
> convince them to wait for 10.04.1 before I upgrade their servers. I
> upgraded the boxes of a new client immediately after the release
> because I would have lost/not gained him had I kept on saying "wait"
> but it was a silly risk. Thankfully, they are running OK, probably
> because the unstable stuff is generally pulled in by the desktop
> tasksels or other desktop-related apps.
>

+1

That LTS badge is meaningless if it just means we shall ensure security
fixes for the next x years.

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Old 05-11-2010, 11:31 AM
zongo saiba
 
Default 10.04? No thanks, I give up!

On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 11:44 AM, Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Knapp <magick.crow@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 10:21 PM, zongo saiba <zongosaiba@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> What I would like to understand really is why regressive bugs? I had
>>> sound in 9.10 on my external speakers and I could use my internal
>>> microphone out the box. In 10.04, I had to modify alsa-base.conf in
>>> order to use my external speakers in such a way that now I am unable to
>>> use my internal microphone. The point being not the issue of not using
>>> my internal microphone but more why a regressive bug ? How can that
>>> happen and most importantly why?
>>
>> http://catb.org/esr/writings/homesteading/
>> Read the Cathedral and the Bazaar to get a deeper understanding.
>> Basically Ubuntu has broken one of the golden rules of open source.
>> You develop and release based on goals not times.
>>
>> To look at it from a different way. They are changing the whole boot
>> loader so that they can get under 10 seconds boots. This will break a
>> lot of stuff and of course all the other bits are changing as they are
>> improved or updated. All this breaks stuff. Open source is ALWAYS
>> changing, even when it does not need to. This leads to better stuff in
>> the long run but breaks stuff in the short run. You have to pick, new
>> and broken or old and stable. Ubuntu runs more to the new side.
>>
>> Also a driver might be made 20% faster but that change breaks 3% of
>> the users' computers. That is not seen until it is released because
>> the programmers did not have that computer system in shop. They then
>> get a bug report and fix it. YOU must file that report or it will
>> never get fixed. That is how open source works.
>
> I don't think that having a release every six months or so is a
> problem, as long as the people who are installing it or upgrading to
> it do not expect it to work without a hitch. Both Ubuntu and Fedora
> releases follow a twice-yearly release schedule (more or less for
> Fedora) and have teething problems when they are first published (in
> the same way that OSX had when it was on a yearly schedule).
>
> I take issue though with the Ubuntu model for LTS. It makes people
> think that a release is OK as soon as it is published when in fact it
> is only slightly less buggy, if at all, than Ubuntu's non-LTS
> releases. I am at the moment in a permanent fight with my clients to
> convince them to wait for 10.04.1 before I upgrade their servers. I
> upgraded the boxes of a new client immediately after the release
> because I would have lost/not gained him had I kept on saying "wait"
> but it was a silly risk. Thankfully, they are running OK, probably
> because the unstable stuff is generally pulled in by the desktop
> tasksels or other desktop-related apps.
>
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>

Wouldn't an Open Source hardware (if such a thing existed) make things
a lot easier on bugs for Linux users? Or, are those bugs really
software bugs ? If I take the Mac platform, Apple builds its own
machines and edit the soft with it. I do know that not releasing the
low level firmware on parts to the Linux developers make it a lot
harder to have a stable system.
The point being that I would agree with you. I have lowered my
expectations on new releases for next time Still though being
grateful to be able to run such a great system as Ubuntu 10.0.4 which
I think is full of promisses

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Old 05-11-2010, 11:52 AM
Karl Larsen
 
Default 10.04? No thanks, I give up!

On 05/11/2010 05:20 AM, Chan Chung Hang Christopher wrote:
>
>> I take issue though with the Ubuntu model for LTS. It makes people
>> think that a release is OK as soon as it is published when in fact it
>> is only slightly less buggy, if at all, than Ubuntu's non-LTS
>> releases. I am at the moment in a permanent fight with my clients to
>> convince them to wait for 10.04.1 before I upgrade their servers. I
>> upgraded the boxes of a new client immediately after the release
>> because I would have lost/not gained him had I kept on saying "wait"
>> but it was a silly risk. Thankfully, they are running OK, probably
>> because the unstable stuff is generally pulled in by the desktop
>> tasksels or other desktop-related apps.
>>
>>
> +1
>
> That LTS badge is meaningless if it just means we shall ensure security
> fixes for the next x years.
>
>
The base problem is promising a fancy new Ubuntu Linux every 6
months. This almost is a certain problem for people like you with
customers who hear about 10.04 and want it right NOW :-)

73 Karl




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Old 05-11-2010, 12:08 PM
Tom H
 
Default 10.04? No thanks, I give up!

On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 7:20 AM, Chan Chung Hang Christopher
<christopher.chan@bradbury.edu.hk> wrote:
>
>> I take issue though with the Ubuntu model for LTS. It makes people
>> think that a release is OK as soon as it is published when in fact it
>> is only slightly less buggy, if at all, than Ubuntu's non-LTS
>> releases. I am at the moment in a permanent fight with my clients to
>> convince them to wait for 10.04.1 before I upgrade their servers. I
>> upgraded the boxes of a new client immediately after the release
>> because I would have lost/not gained him had I kept on saying "wait"
>> but it was a silly risk. Thankfully, they are running OK, probably
>> because the unstable stuff is generally pulled in by the desktop
>> tasksels or other desktop-related apps.
>>
>
> +1
>
> That LTS badge is meaningless if it just means we shall ensure security
> fixes for the next x years.

Come to think of it, the name says it all...

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