I think that the Karmac 9.10 version of Ubuntu should be
offered with advice to use the ext3 file system and the Grub
version 1 boot.

I think this because a huge number of problems surround the
new versions of both critical items. A new user does not want
to hear this.

73 Karl



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--- On Fri, 10/30/09, Karl F. Larsen <klarsen1@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Karl F. Larsen <klarsen1@gmail.com>
> Subject: Good Idea for new users
> To: "Ubuntu user technical support, not for general discussions" <ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com>
> Date: Friday, October 30, 2009, 8:27 AM
>
> *** I think that the Karmac 9.10 version of
> Ubuntu should be
> offered with advice to use the ext3 file system and the
> Grub
> version 1 boot.
>
> *** I think this because a huge number of
> problems surround the
> new versions of both critical items. A new user does not
> want
> to hear this.
>
> 73 Karl
>
>
Why? A fresh install on an ext4 partition has worked for be flawlessly on both grub2 and ext4 fs. Maybe better advice is to install on a fresh partition and not just upgrade from an older version which has always presented issues for me and is why I now always install on a fresh partition instead of upgrading. YMMV.
BTW, grub2 did pick up all my other ubuntu partitions and my 2 vista partitions so I can't buy the recommendation.
Leonard Chatagnier
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I just did an upgrade from 9.04 to 9.10... and same experience. Flawless...

No point in spreading FUD.

Gilles.

Leonard Chatagnier wrote:
> --- On Fri, 10/30/09, Karl F. Larsen <klarsen1@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> From: Karl F. Larsen <klarsen1@gmail.com>
>> Subject: Good Idea for new users
>> To: "Ubuntu user technical support, not for general discussions" <ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com>
>> Date: Friday, October 30, 2009, 8:27 AM
>>
>> I think that the Karmac 9.10 version of
>> Ubuntu should be
>> offered with advice to use the ext3 file system and the
>> Grub
>> version 1 boot.
>>
>> I think this because a huge number of
>> problems surround the
>> new versions of both critical items. A new user does not
>> want
>> to hear this.
>>
>> 73 Karl
>>
>>
>>
> Why? A fresh install on an ext4 partition has worked for be flawlessly on both grub2 and ext4 fs. Maybe better advice is to install on a fresh partition and not just upgrade from an older version which has always presented issues for me and is why I now always install on a fresh partition instead of upgrading. YMMV.
> BTW, grub2 did pick up all my other ubuntu partitions and my 2 vista partitions so I can't buy the recommendation.
> Leonard Chatagnier
> lenc5570@sbcglobal.net
>
>
>

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Leonard Chatagnier <lenc5570@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Why? A fresh install on an ext4 partition has worked for be
> flawlessly on both grub2 and ext4 fs.

Presumably because it didn't for other people. There are certainly
several related bugs.

> Maybe better advice is to
> install on a fresh partition and not just upgrade from an older
> version which has always presented issues for me and is why I now
> always install on a fresh partition instead of upgrading.

Upgrades keep ext3 and grub-legacy.

I've never had a problem doing an in-place upgrade, and they're not
supposed to be troublesome. They are a supported means of upgrade, and
one of the things Linux has held above Windows for a loooong time.

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Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt (FUD) it is not. It was just my experience countering Karl's suggestion. And I do stand by my statement about fresh install vs. upgrade. It is my experience and I consider good advice and easier to do, IMHO.
Leonard Chatagnier
lenc5570@sbcglobal.net


--- On Fri, 10/30/09, Gilles Gravier <ggravier@fsfe.org> wrote:

> From: Gilles Gravier <ggravier@fsfe.org>
> Subject: Re: Good Idea for new users
> To: "Ubuntu user technical support, not for general discussions" <ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com>
> Date: Friday, October 30, 2009, 9:00 AM
> I just did an upgrade from 9.04 to
> 9.10... and same experience. Flawless...
>
> No point in spreading FUD.
>
> Gilles.
>
> Leonard Chatagnier wrote:
> > --- On Fri, 10/30/09, Karl F. Larsen <klarsen1@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >***
> >> From: Karl F. Larsen <klarsen1@gmail.com>
> >> Subject: Good Idea for new users
> >> To: "Ubuntu user technical support, not for
> general discussions" <ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com>
> >> Date: Friday, October 30, 2009, 8:27 AM
> >>
> >>* ***I think that the Karmac
> 9.10 version of
> >> Ubuntu should be
> >> offered with advice to use the ext3 file system
> and the
> >> Grub
> >> version 1 boot.
> >>
> >>* ***I think this because a
> huge number of
> >> problems surround the
> >> new versions of both critical items. A new user
> does not
> >> want
> >> to hear this.
> >>
> >> 73 Karl
> >>
> >>
> >>* ***
> > Why? A fresh install on an ext4 partition has worked
> for be flawlessly on both grub2 and ext4 fs.* Maybe
> better advice is to install on a fresh partition and not
> just upgrade from an older version which has always
> presented issues for me and is why I now always install on a
> fresh partition instead of upgrading.* YMMV.
> > BTW, grub2 did pick up all my other ubuntu partitions
> and my 2 vista partitions so I can't buy the
> recommendation.
> > Leonard Chatagnier
> > lenc5570@sbcglobal.net
> >
> >
> >***
>
> --
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> ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
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I was saying that Karl was spreading FUD... and agreeing with you,
Leonard about no need to worry new users.

GIlles.

Leonard Chatagnier wrote:
> Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt (FUD) it is not. It was just my experience countering Karl's suggestion. And I do stand by my statement about fresh install vs. upgrade. It is my experience and I consider good advice and easier to do, IMHO.
> Leonard Chatagnier
> lenc5570@sbcglobal.net
>
>
> --- On Fri, 10/30/09, Gilles Gravier <ggravier@fsfe.org> wrote:
>
>
>> From: Gilles Gravier <ggravier@fsfe.org>
>> Subject: Re: Good Idea for new users
>> To: "Ubuntu user technical support, not for general discussions" <ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com>
>> Date: Friday, October 30, 2009, 9:00 AM
>> I just did an upgrade from 9.04 to
>> 9.10... and same experience. Flawless...
>>
>> No point in spreading FUD.
>>
>> Gilles.
>>
>> Leonard Chatagnier wrote:
>>
>>> --- On Fri, 10/30/09, Karl F. Larsen <klarsen1@gmail.com>
>>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: Karl F. Larsen <klarsen1@gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Good Idea for new users
>>>> To: "Ubuntu user technical support, not for
>>>>
>> general discussions" <ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com>
>>
>>>> Date: Friday, October 30, 2009, 8:27 AM
>>>>
>>>> I think that the Karmac
>>>>
>> 9.10 version of
>>
>>>> Ubuntu should be
>>>> offered with advice to use the ext3 file system
>>>>
>> and the
>>
>>>> Grub
>>>> version 1 boot.
>>>>
>>>> I think this because a
>>>>
>> huge number of
>>
>>>> problems surround the
>>>> new versions of both critical items. A new user
>>>>
>> does not
>>
>>>> want
>>>> to hear this.
>>>>
>>>> 73 Karl
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Why? A fresh install on an ext4 partition has worked
>>>
>> for be flawlessly on both grub2 and ext4 fs. Maybe
>> better advice is to install on a fresh partition and not
>> just upgrade from an older version which has always
>> presented issues for me and is why I now always install on a
>> fresh partition instead of upgrading. YMMV.
>>
>>> BTW, grub2 did pick up all my other ubuntu partitions
>>>
>> and my 2 vista partitions so I can't buy the
>> recommendation.
>>
>>> Leonard Chatagnier
>>> lenc5570@sbcglobal.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> ubuntu-users mailing list
>> ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
>> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
>>
>>
>
>

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--- On Fri, 10/30/09, Avi Greenbury <avismailinglistaccount@googlemail.com> wrote:

> From: Avi Greenbury <avismailinglistaccount@googlemail.com>
> Subject: Re: Good Idea for new users
> To: ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
> Date: Friday, October 30, 2009, 9:04 AM
> Leonard Chatagnier <lenc5570@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
> > Why? A fresh install on an ext4 partition has worked
> for be
> > flawlessly on both grub2 and ext4 fs.
>
> Presumably because it didn't for other people. There are
> certainly
> several related bugs.
>
I suppose the person doing the install couldn't have made a mistake?
And that it couldn't somehow be hardware related? These are mentioned in some of the bug reports I've read.
> >*** ***
> *** *** ***
> * Maybe better advice is to
> > install on a fresh partition and not just upgrade from
> an older
> > version which has always presented issues for me and
> is why I now
> > always install on a fresh partition instead of
> upgrading.*
>
> Upgrades keep ext3 and grub-legacy.
>
> I've never had a problem doing an in-place upgrade, and
> they're not
> supposed to be troublesome. They are a supported means of
> upgrade, and
> one of the things Linux has held above Windows for a
> loooong time.
>
I know it's supported. Am just giving my experience and stating what worked for me. I've done both but not a direct upgrade from an older version in quite some time. YMMV, but I think I said that on one or the related posts.
I still think Karl's advice is not the best as far as Ubuntu goes, YMMV.
>
Leonard Chatagnier
lenc5570@sbcglobal.net

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So sorry as I did misinterpret what you said. Sorry again.
Leonard Chatagnier
lenc5570@sbcglobal.net


--- On Fri, 10/30/09, Gilles Gravier <ggravier@fsfe.org> wrote:

> From: Gilles Gravier <ggravier@fsfe.org>
> Subject: Re: Good Idea for new users
> To: "Ubuntu user technical support, not for general discussions" <ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com>
> Date: Friday, October 30, 2009, 9:17 AM
> I was saying that Karl was spreading
> FUD... and agreeing with you,
> Leonard about no need to worry new users.
>
> GIlles.
>
> Leonard Chatagnier wrote:
> > Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt (FUD) it is not.* It
> was just my experience countering Karl's suggestion.*
> And I do stand by my statement about fresh install vs.
> upgrade.* It is my experience and I consider good
> advice and easier to do, IMHO.
> > Leonard Chatagnier
> > lenc5570@sbcglobal.net
> >
> >
> > --- On Fri, 10/30/09, Gilles Gravier <ggravier@fsfe.org>
> wrote:
> >
> >***
> >> From: Gilles Gravier <ggravier@fsfe.org>
> >> Subject: Re: Good Idea for new users
> >> To: "Ubuntu user technical support, not for
> general discussions" <ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com>
> >> Date: Friday, October 30, 2009, 9:00 AM
> >> I just did an upgrade from 9.04 to
> >> 9.10... and same experience. Flawless...
> >>
> >> No point in spreading FUD.
> >>
> >> Gilles.
> >>
> >> Leonard Chatagnier wrote:
> >>* ***
> >>> --- On Fri, 10/30/09, Karl F. Larsen <klarsen1@gmail.com>
> >>>* * ***
> >> wrote:
> >>* ***
> >>>* *
> >>>* * ***
> >>>> From: Karl F. Larsen <klarsen1@gmail.com>
> >>>> Subject: Good Idea for new users
> >>>> To: "Ubuntu user technical support, not
> for
> >>>>* * * ***
> >> general discussions" <ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com>
> >>* ***
> >>>> Date: Friday, October 30, 2009, 8:27 AM
> >>>>
> >>>>* * * I think that the
> Karmac
> >>>>* * * ***
> >> 9.10 version of
> >>* ***
> >>>> Ubuntu should be
> >>>> offered with advice to use the ext3 file
> system
> >>>>* * * ***
> >> and the
> >>* ***
> >>>> Grub
> >>>> version 1 boot.
> >>>>
> >>>>* * * I think this because
> a
> >>>>* * * ***
> >> huge number of
> >>* ***
> >>>> problems surround the
> >>>> new versions of both critical items. A new
> user
> >>>>* * * ***
> >> does not
> >>* ***
> >>>> want
> >>>> to hear this.
> >>>>
> >>>> 73 Karl
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>* * *
> >>>>* * * ***
> >>> Why? A fresh install on an ext4 partition has
> worked
> >>>* * ***
> >> for be flawlessly on both grub2 and ext4 fs.*
> Maybe
> >> better advice is to install on a fresh partition
> and not
> >> just upgrade from an older version which has
> always
> >> presented issues for me and is why I now always
> install on a
> >> fresh partition instead of upgrading.* YMMV.
> >>* ***
> >>> BTW, grub2 did pick up all my other ubuntu
> partitions
> >>>* * ***
> >> and my 2 vista partitions so I can't buy the
> >> recommendation.
> >>* ***
> >>> Leonard Chatagnier
> >>> lenc5570@sbcglobal.net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>* *
> >>>* * ***
> >> --
> >> ubuntu-users mailing list
> >> ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
> >> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
> >>
> >>* ***
> >
> >***
>
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On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 07:11:40 -0700 (PDT)
Leonard Chatagnier <lenc5570@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt (FUD) it is not.

You are telling us (and, more importantly, people who haven't done it)
that a system does not work as designed or advertised, and it is
therefore advisable to avoid it.

That *is* fud. Certainly in the eyes of those people who have made good
use of the system.

I have a desktop that's not had a fresh install since 6.10, a laptop
that's derived from 7.04, a few PCs for which I've lost track and
several servers running debian without rebuild for two to five years.
In-place upgrades, as far as I'm concerned, are and should be the norm.
I'm certainly not going to do a fresh install every six months.

The upgrade mechanism does work in the vast majority of cases, and if
it doesn't in yours I cannot implore you enough to please report the
bugs and the problems you have so they can be fixed. It should work, it
can work, and if there are issues remaining I'd suggest it's mostly
because people encounter them and do not pass the reports upstream to
be fixed.

If you don't tell the developers that it doesn't work in your use case,
they're not going to fix it.

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On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 07:24:18 -0700 (PDT)
Leonard Chatagnier <lenc5570@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> > Presumably because it didn't for other people. There are
> > certainly
> > several related bugs.
> >
> I suppose the person doing the install couldn't have made a mistake?
> And that it couldn't somehow be hardware related? These are
> mentioned in some of the bug reports I've read.

It almost certainly is hardware related, what with ext4 and grub2 being
bits of the system that interact directly with the hardware.

I don't know the ins and outs of the problems, though. I don't run
either system yet, and haven't been keeping track of the reports. But
bugs against boot loaders and filesystems are to be taken substantially
more seriously than those against media players and IRC clients.

> I know it's supported. Am just giving my experience and stating what
> worked for me. I've done both but not a direct upgrade from an older
> version in quite some time. YMMV, but I think I said that on one or
> the related posts. I still think Karl's advice is not the best as far
> as Ubuntu goes, YMMV.

I agree that Karl's idea is not one of the best. But I'm also more than
a little disheartened by your apparent acceptance that the upgrade
process is one doomed to failure.
I rely on it working, and as such would like people who find bugs in it
to report them.

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