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Old 02-26-2009, 12:57 PM
Charles Darwin
 
Default posting

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?


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Old 06-22-2011, 05:20 PM
lee
 
Default posting

"Roger B.A. Klorese" <rogerk@queernet.org> writes:

> On Jun 22, 2011, at 7:01 AM, lee wrote:
>
>> Hm, I wonder why anyone is going to the lengths of replying to digest
>> messages rather than just subscribing to the list ...
>
>
> So they don't need to get hundreds of separate messages?!

They get all the messages anyway, just not as seperate ones that could
be replied to.

> Most people don't treat a digest as separate from a list, just an alternate subscription format.

No doubt its an alternate subscription format --- a subscription format
not designed for replying to the messages in the digest.

> It's incumbent on those who own the technology to evolve digests so it's easier to reply to individual posts, not on readers to jump through hoops to reply.

You could as well claim that it is incumbent on those who run a mailing
list to give everyone who wants to participate in a mailing list access
to a suitable computer so that its easier for them to participate.

Since I think that when someone chooses to receive a mailing list as a
digest they have also made a decision for a format that isnt designed
for replying to the messages posted to the list, I dont see any
obligation for anyone to modify the format of the digest. At the same
time, I always appreciate it when more options become available.

Perhaps the digest can be turned into an mbox file without too much
effort, like just stripping the headers of the container-message, and
thus be treated as if the subscriber received the mailing list not as a
digest but as single messages?


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Old 06-22-2011, 05:24 PM
Chris Brennan
 
Default posting

* lee <lee@yun.yagibdah.de> [2011-06-22 19:20:19 +0200]:

> Perhaps the digest can be turned into an mbox file without too much
> effort, like just stripping the headers of the container-message, and
> thus be treated as if the subscriber received the mailing list not as a
> digest but as single messages?

An interesting idea, so essentially they can be presented with a link to
download the digest for any given period in mbox format for importation
into their mail client.... maybe make the period defineable so they
could then choose to fetch the days messages or last weeks messages, given
what they desire.

--
> Chris Brennan
> --
> A: Yes.
> >Q: Are you sure?
> >>A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
> >>>Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?
> http://xkcd.com/84/ | http://xkcd.com/149/ | http://xkcd.com/549/
> GPG: D5B20C0C (6741 8EE4 6C7D 11FB 8DA8 9E4A EECD 9A84 D5B2 0C0C)
------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Old 06-22-2011, 05:48 PM
John Hasler
 
Default posting

lee writes:
> Perhaps the digest can be turned into an mbox file without too much
> effort, like just stripping the headers of the container-message, and
> thus be treated as if the subscriber received the mailing list not as
> a digest but as single messages?

Some MUAs can do just that.
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Old 06-23-2011, 02:03 AM
Scott Ferguson
 
Default posting

On 23/06/11 00:01, lee wrote:
> Scott Ferguson <prettyfly.productions@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 22/06/11 21:53, Camaleón wrote:
>>>> On 21/06/11 23:29, Camaleón wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 09:21:01 -0300, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:
>>>>>> But at least you did not reply to a digest.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure. I'd say digests are for reading more than replying.
>>
>> And I am in absolute agreement with you!
>
> Hm, I wonder why anyone is going to the lengths of replying to digest
> messages rather than just subscribing to the list ...

You could just ask the person.... (look for the "Digest" subject line)
I've had to replied to posts from digests - I edit out the digest cruft
rather than perpetuate an abomination.

For convoluted reasons I subscribe to a digest from another list - I
edit my responses carefully though. While some will argue that ruins the
header information - the purpose is to make indexing for searching, and
threading by subject line, work. Not to provide a forensics trail for
the anally retentive.

>
>> But then - I also believe if someone top posts there *is* something
>> wrong. Likewise posting in HTML. Or posting to the list because they are
>> unable to do something, but then insisting on rudely declaring how
>> something must be done (and still expecting respect).
>
> Here or anywhere else, indeed. I´m seeing badly designed followups way
> too often. Some people don´t even use quote marks so that it becomes
> indistinguishable who says what or what someone is referring to. I wish
> there was a way to automatically detect such followups to automatically
> lower their scores and have them not displayed anymore.

or a way of reaching out and giving them a digital slap upside the head...

>
> Do you know of a good reference that teaches people how to post I could
> point to in my signature?
>
>

http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3
http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct

Though, in many cases I suspect you'll have more success if you simply
get the instructions inscribed on a blunt, heavy, object. Like a
"knowledge" club. :-D

Cheers

--
And I'll tell you something, too, that's starting to annoy me about
UFOs: the fact that they cross galaxies or universes to visit us, and
always end up in places like … Fyffe f#@!ing Alabama.
Maybe these aren't super-intelligent beings, you know what I mean?
~ Bill Hicks


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Old 06-23-2011, 02:11 AM
Scott Ferguson
 
Default posting

On 23/06/11 00:05, Roger B.A. Klorese wrote:
> On Jun 22, 2011, at 7:01 AM, lee wrote:
>
>> Hm, I wonder why anyone is going to the lengths of replying to
>> digest messages rather than just subscribing to the list ...
>
>
> So they don't need to get hundreds of separate messages?! Most
> people don't treat a digest as separate from a list, just an
> alternate subscription format.

That makes sense, but then you(?) continue...

>
> It's incumbent on those who own the technology to evolve digests so
> it's easier to reply to individual posts, not on readers to jump
> through hoops to reply.
>

The meaning of the last paragraph is unclear - was that your intention?

[gently]
It's not immediately clear *who* you're quoting, and please:-
"Wrap your lines at 80 characters or less for ordinary discussion. Lines
longer than 80 characters are acceptable for computer-generated output
(e.g., ls -l)."
ref. http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
[/gently]

NOTE: I've re-wrapped your original missive.

Cheers

--
And I'll tell you something, too, that's starting to annoy me about
UFOs: the fact that they cross galaxies or universes to visit us, and
always end up in places like … Fyffe f#@!ing Alabama.
Maybe these aren't super-intelligent beings, you know what I mean?
~ Bill Hicks


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Old 06-23-2011, 08:14 AM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default posting

On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 17:39 +1000, Scott Ferguson wrote:
> On 23/06/11 17:02, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 06:45 +0000,
> > debian-user-digest-request@lists.debian.org wrote:
> >> On 23/06/11 00:01, lee wrote:
> >> > Scott Ferguson <prettyfly.productions@gmail.com> writes:
> >> >
> >> >> On 22/06/11 21:53, Camaleón wrote:
> >> >>>> On 21/06/11 23:29, Camaleón wrote:
> >> >>>>> On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 09:21:01 -0300, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
> >> wrote:
> >> >>>>>> But at least you did not reply to a digest.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Sure. I'd say digests are for reading more than
> >> replying.
> >> >>
> >> >> And I am in absolute agreement with you!
> >> >
> >> > Hm, I wonder why anyone is going to the lengths of replying
> >> to digest
> >> > messages rather than just subscribing to the list ...
> >>
> >> You could just ask the person.... (look for the "Digest"
> >> subject line)
> >> I've had to replied to posts from digests - I edit out the
> >> digest cruft
> >> rather than perpetuate an abomination.
> >>
> >> For convoluted reasons I subscribe to a digest from another
> >> list - I
> >> edit my responses carefully though. While some will argue that
> >> ruins the
> >> header information - the purpose is to make indexing for
> >> searching, and
> >> threading by subject line, work. Not to provide a forensics
> >> trail for
> >> the anally retentive.
> >
> > It's easier for GNU mailman digest. There you get the subject line and
> > you easily can copy and paste it, so at least I won't forget to do it,
> > while I sometimes forget to do it for the Debian list.
> > Another issue for the Debian digest is, that even HTML formatted spam
> > isn't eliminated, hence scrolling through the Digest is annoying. People
> > writing to the list should do it by plain text only, so it would be easy
> > to eliminate HTML based spam.
> >
> > IMO Digest should be for replies too, not only to lurk the list. You can
> > read the archive if you only would like to lurk.
> >
> > -- Ralf
> >
> >
>
> Is all that ^ annoying?
> To me it looks like someone printed out a post, put it through a washing
> machine, then had it typed out by a drunk on a popo-stick! ;-p
>
> Not only is it reformatted, re-wrapped, and re-indented - the Subject
> has been appended to, breaking the thread.

Re: posting Re: debian-user-digest Digest V2011 #1198

instead of

Re: posting

is breaking the thread?

> Maybe it works for you in Evolution Ralf - but for me in Icedove you've
> just made a(nother) complelling argument for NOT replying to Digest
> messages.

For Evolution it usually isn't reformatted, of cause sometimes I get
neverending lines when I reply, but this also happens for non-digest
replies.

And yes, sometimes mails are bad reformatted for Evolution too, but this
also isn't related to digest replies.

> While in your opinion ("IMO") "it should be for replies too" - the fact
> that it *doesn't work* should be a good reason not to do so. My 2c.

I can filter emails for my client, but not for the provider's server.
I don't want to receive 800 mails a day, so I prefer digest.

> Both HTML and spam being sent to list is a filtering issue - nothing to
> do with the Digest version (red herring).

The Debian list does cause most of the Spams I get.

> Also. How someone can forget to copy the Subject line - when, if
> replying to normal (not Digest) messages - it's not necessary.

It doesn't happen that often and usually for this list. If standards are
that important, GNU mailman would be the better choice to avoid issues.

Debian isn't fine with Firefox and Thunderbird, hence they change some
things, add bugs and call it Iceweasel and Icedove. Debian isn't fine
with GNU mailmen, hence they use another format for the mailing list.

And now replying to digest is unwanted? What is digest for? For reading
only? There's an archive, that can be used for reading only.

Mozilla isn't origin Linux software. I'm using Evolution, it's still
more buggy than Mozillas are, I can't change this OTOH did you test if
the reformatted mails are ok when viewing them by Thunderbird instead of
Icedove?

At least my Iceweasel isn't working that good as Firefox does on other
Linux installs.

I planed to read more and to write less, at the moment I reply very
often, but I won't switch between digest and "normal" when the amount of
my replies is higher or lower.

-- Ralf


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Old 06-23-2011, 10:28 AM
Scott Ferguson
 
Default posting

On 23/06/11 18:14, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 17:39 +1000, Scott Ferguson wrote:
>> On 23/06/11 17:02, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>>> On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 06:45 +0000,
>>> debian-user-digest-request@lists.debian.org wrote:
>>>> On 23/06/11 00:01, lee wrote:
>>>>> Scott Ferguson <prettyfly.productions@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>
<snipped>
>>>
>>
>> Is all that ^ annoying? To me it looks like someone printed out a
>> post, put it through a washing machine, then had it typed out by a
>> drunk on a popo-stick! ;-p
>>
>> Not only is it reformatted, re-wrapped, and re-indented - the
>> Subject has been appended to, breaking the thread.
>
> Re: posting Re: debian-user-digest Digest V2011 #1198
>
> instead of
>
> Re: posting
>
> is breaking the thread?

It no longer is part of the thread in threaded view with Icedove (or
Thunderbird).
*Likewise, in the online version (see "In-reply-to"):-
http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2011/06/msg01837.html*

>
>> Maybe it works for you in Evolution Ralf - but for me in Icedove
>> you've just made a(nother) complelling argument for NOT replying to
>> Digest messages.
>
> For Evolution it usually isn't reformatted, of cause sometimes I get
> neverending lines when I reply, but this also happens for non-digest
> replies.

It's reformatting in my mail client, and in the html version eg.:-
Before
http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2011/06/msg01819.html
After
http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2011/06/msg01837.html

>
> And yes, sometimes mails are bad reformatted for Evolution too, but
> this also isn't related to digest replies.
>
>> While in your opinion ("IMO") "it should be for replies too" - the
>> fact that it *doesn't work* should be a good reason not to do so.
>> My 2c.
>
> I can filter emails for my client, but not for the provider's
> server. I don't want to receive 800 mails a day, so I prefer digest.

I can trivially filter individual messages using the filters in my email
client or at the email server (gmail) - filtering the content of a
digest edition requires me to write scripts that parse the digest.

>
>> Both HTML and spam being sent to list is a filtering issue -
>> nothing to do with the Digest version (red herring).
>
> The Debian list does cause most of the Spams I get.

Sure. But I fail to see the connection between spam received as a result
of publishing your email address on-line, and whether you receive the
standard, individual messages.

>
>> Also. How someone can forget to copy the Subject line - when, if
>> replying to normal (not Digest) messages - it's not necessary.
>
> It doesn't happen that often and usually for this list. If standards
> are that important, GNU mailman would be the better choice to avoid
> issues.
>
> Debian isn't fine with Firefox and Thunderbird, hence they change
> some things, add bugs and call it Iceweasel and Icedove.

That's an opinion not shared by the developer (or I).

> Debian isn't fine with GNU mailmen, hence they use another format for
> the mailing list.

I did not know that. Out of curiosity I searched but couldn't quickly
find any information about this.
What "isn't fine" about GNU mailman" ??

The vast majority of posters don't "seem" to have a problem with the
current mail server. The only complaints I've seen in the archives are
from people who want to "munge" there email addresses, and other such
stupidity as "receive only" subscriptions. I say stupid because it's
just recalcitrant laziness to demand from the list what free email
accounts already provide.

>
> And now replying to digest is unwanted? What is digest for? For
> reading only? There's an archive, that can be used for reading only.

"unwanted". I have not said that, nor has anyone else. What is unwanted
is useless, or mangled Subjects, badly reformatted posts etc. The form
in which the poster receives the original should have no bearing on the
matter.

Let me restate my position for clarity:- whether a reply from gmane,
nginx forums, gmail, mailx, and http://lists.debian.org/debian-user, or,
*any* email client - it is possible to send useful, properly formatted
posts. Ditto for replying to posts. I've yet to hear a reasonable excuse
for doing otherwise.
I use cut and paste from the online list
(http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ what you call the archives) to
post from gmail when away from my computers, without problem.

>
> Mozilla isn't origin Linux software.

apropos of what? :-)
The online version of the offending messages renders the same in
Konqueror, Iceweasel, Firefox, lynx and Chrome.

> I'm using Evolution, it's still
> more buggy than Mozillas are, I can't change this OTOH did you test
> if the reformatted mails are ok when viewing them by Thunderbird
> instead of Icedove?


Tested in Icedove, gmail, Thunderbird, Kmail, and online at
http://lists.debian.org/debian-user - they still look like something the
dog coughed up. :-(

>
> At least my Iceweasel isn't working that good as Firefox does on
> other Linux installs.

Surely that's a separate issue?

>
> I planed to read more and to write less, at the moment I reply very
> often, but I won't switch between digest and "normal" when the amount
> of my replies is higher or lower.
>
> -- Ralf
>
>

Cheers

--
And I'll tell you something, too, that's starting to annoy me about
UFOs: the fact that they cross galaxies or universes to visit us, and
always end up in places like … Fyffe f#@!ing Alabama.
Maybe these aren't super-intelligent beings, you know what I mean?
~ Bill Hicks


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Old 06-23-2011, 01:04 PM
Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
 
Default posting

On 06/23/2011 07:28 AM, Scott Ferguson wrote:
> On 23/06/11 18:14, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>> Re: posting Re: debian-user-digest Digest V2011 #1198
>>
>> instead of
>>
>> Re: posting
>>
>> is breaking the thread?
> It no longer is part of the thread in threaded view with Icedove (or
> Thunderbird).
> *Likewise, in the online version (see "In-reply-to"):-
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2011/06/msg01837.html*

Just to make that clear, that is not because of the subject, but because
a reply to a digest will lack References and/or In-Reply-To headers
pointing to the replied-to message. And unlike the subject (which can be
fixed easily by taking a few seconds to edit it), most MUAs (if not all)
do not allow one to edit those headers.

Someone might say that asking for properly threaded messages is just
being picky, but it surely makes reading much easier and the list of
messages is much clearer.

> I did not know that. Out of curiosity I searched but couldn't quickly
> find any information about this.
> What "isn't fine" about GNU mailman" ??

I also know nothing about Debian "not liking" mailman. It's even
available in the archives.

I believe the reason Debian's mailing lists do not use mailman is that
they precede mailman. But this is just a guess.


--
"The great question... which I have not been able to answer... is, `What does
woman want?'"
-- Sigmund Freud

Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
eduardo@kalinowski.com.br


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Old 06-23-2011, 03:52 PM
lee
 
Default posting

Scott Ferguson <prettyfly.productions@gmail.com> writes:

>> Scott Ferguson <prettyfly.productions@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> Hm, I wonder why anyone is going to the lengths of replying to digest
>> messages rather than just subscribing to the list ...
>
> You could just ask the person....

Since hes following this mailing list, he may choose to answer.

>> Do you know of a good reference that teaches people how to post I could
>> point to in my signature?
>>
>>
>
> http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3
> http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
>
> Though, in many cases I suspect you'll have more success if you simply
> get the instructions inscribed on a blunt, heavy, object. Like a
> "knowledge" club. :-D

Yeah, looks like it Perhaps I need to look into filtering messages by
the content type header again and use scoring more often since that's
more practical.


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