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Old 02-24-2009, 05:54 AM
"M. Fioretti"
 
Default Note on TRIMMING, was: Why do people detest top posting so much?

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:56:00 AM -0500, Pete Clapham wrote:

> May I humbly point out that if you're actually following the
> conversation, you've read the previous messages. Bottom posting
> forces you to go through all that again until you find the answer
> you're interested in.

that's true ONLY if the person who bottom posted did not trim as much
as possible before adding new text. The worst possible thing is to not
trim as much as possible before replying. People who don't trim
mailing list messages:

greatly increase, for no reason whatever but lazyness or carelessness,
overall network traffic, load on the mailing list server and size of
the mailing list archives.

make those same archives much less useful, since they return lots of
almost identical hits whatever you were searching

(the worst part) those people make *others* pay for their own habits.
Everybody with a metered internet connection (be it dial-up or wi-fi,
cellular GPRS/UMTS/etc...) has to download (=pay!) many times text he
or she had already read...

> Top posting makes it easier to continue a conversation.

1) not at all, if you're reading the message in the archives, to find
the solution to some problem. Posting in a way that makes everybody
in the future read bottom-up ten screenfuls of text to fix
something isn't the best possible service.

2) even ignoring archives, that assertion is true only if all members
of a conversation have very fresh in their mind who the heck the
top poster is, and what the heck he's talking about. Private or
in-office email conversations are a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT
beast. Nobody else takes part in those, so nobody cares how you
manage them. But many people follow many mailing lists at the same
time and at random intervals. So they're simply going to ignore any
message which takes more than half a second to figure out what it's
about (as it surely happens with top posting). When you reply to a
mailing list, always start with the assumption that nobody else
remembers what you were writing about, or where the conversation
had stopped 3 days before. Try to save as much of their time as
possible, and you'll be much more likely to get answer.

In any case, and here is the real/only point of this message, if you
trim as much as possible before even starting to reply... very often,
at that point it simply won't matter anymore whether you top or bottom
post.

Marco Fioretti
http://mfioretti.net
--
Your own civil rights and the quality of your life heavily depend on how
software is used *around* you: http://digifreedom.net/node/84

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Old 02-27-2009, 05:19 AM
Ray Parrish
 
Default Note on TRIMMING, was: Why do people detest top posting so much?

M. Fioretti wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:56:00 AM -0500, Pete Clapham wrote:
>
>
>> May I humbly point out that if you're actually following the
>> conversation, you've read the previous messages. Bottom posting
>> forces you to go through all that again until you find the answer
>> you're interested in.
>>
There is a solution for that. If you use Thunderbird for email, get the
add on called Quote Collapse. This add on collapses each quoted section
of a text email into one liners with a + sign at the left end in case
you want to expand that quoted section to read it.

Be sure to go into it's preferences, and set it to use all four borders
for a nice boxed look to the collapsed quoted sections.

Another nice add on to go with it is Quote Colors which assigns a
different color to each level of quoting, which makes it easier to tell
which quoted section belongs with the other.

Quote collapse makes it real easy to get to the new material at the
bottom of posts in Ubuntu User's group emails.

Later, Ray Parrish

--
Human reviewed index of links about the computer
http://www.rayslinks.com
Poetry from the mind of a Schizophrenic
http://www.writingsoftheschizophrenic.com/


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Old 02-27-2009, 05:31 AM
"Mihamina Rakotomandimby (R12y)"
 
Default Note on TRIMMING, was: Why do people detest top posting so much?

Ray Parrish wrote:
> There is a solution for that. If you use Thunderbird for email, get the
> add on called Quote Collapse.

Definitely bad advice.
People should be free to use Evolution, mutt, Gnus,... to follow the
Mailing List.

--
Chef de projet chez Vectoris
Phone: +261 33 11 207 36
System: xUbuntu 8.10 with almost all from package install
http://www.google.com/search?q=mihamina+rakotomandimby

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Old 02-27-2009, 03:51 PM
Ray Parrish
 
Default Note on TRIMMING, was: Why do people detest top posting so much?

Mihamina Rakotomandimby (R12y) wrote:
> Ray Parrish wrote:
>
>> There is a solution for that. If you use Thunderbird for email, get the
>> add on called Quote Collapse.
>>
>
> Definitely bad advice.
> People should be free to use Evolution, mutt, Gnus,... to follow the
> Mailing List.
>
Sure they should, but I prefer to use a client that has a richer feature
set that enhances my ability to communicate instead of just providing
basic functionality.

And I do not see where it can be considered "bad advice" to let people
know of a solution to a problem they are obviously having.

Later, Ray Parrish

--
Human reviewed index of links about the computer
http://www.rayslinks.com
Poetry from the mind of a Schizophrenic
http://www.writingsoftheschizophrenic.com/


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Old 02-27-2009, 03:58 PM
Dotan Cohen
 
Default Note on TRIMMING, was: Why do people detest top posting so much?

>>> There is a solution for that. If you use Thunderbird for email, get the
>>> add on called Quote Collapse.
>>>
>>
>> Definitely bad advice.
>> People should be free to use Evolution, mutt, Gnus,... to follow the
>> Mailing List.
>>
> Sure they should, but I prefer to use a client that has a richer feature
> set that enhances my ability to communicate instead of just providing
> basic functionality.
>
> And I do not see where it can be considered "bad advice" to let people
> know of a solution to a problem they are obviously having.
>
> Later, Ray Parrish
>

I agree. I am using a known-broken email client (gmail) for very
specific reasons. Despite that, I simply _move_the_cursor_down_ and
then I don't have to top post.

Users can use whatever email client they choose. Logically, the users
would choose an email client that provides the features needed to
communicate effectively.

--
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il

א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-*-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת
ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-*-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه*-و-ي
А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-*-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-*-Ю-Я
а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я
ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü
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Old 02-27-2009, 04:00 PM
Lorenzo Taylor
 
Default Note on TRIMMING, was: Why do people detest top posting so much?

I like the idea of using quote collapse for Thunderbird, as that is the mail
client I use. However, I am currently using 3.0, and this add-on seems to be
incompatible. Note that since I use screen reading software to speak the text on
the screen, Thunderbird 3.0 is currently the only version that is fully
compatible with the Orca screen reading package and its supporting libraries,
and I greatly prefer Thunderbird over Evolution, but that's just a personal
preference and shouldn't be taken as anything more.

Lorenzo
--
Great Goddess Isis,
Thou who art above the stars,
Grant us peace and love.
--Lorenzo Taylor

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Old 02-27-2009, 05:47 PM
"M. Fioretti"
 
Default Note on TRIMMING, was: Why do people detest top posting so much?

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 08:51:44 AM -0800, Ray Parrish wrote:
> >

> >> There is a solution for that. If you use Thunderbird for email,
> >> get the add on called Quote Collapse.
> >
> > Definitely bad advice. People should be free to use Evolution,
> > mutt, Gnus,... to follow the Mailing List.
>
> Sure they should, but I prefer to use a client that has a richer
> feature set that enhances my ability to communicate instead of just
> providing basic functionality... And I do not see where it can be
> considered "bad advice" to let people know of a solution to a
> problem they are obviously having.

I have quote collapsing in mutt (via t-prot) and is a really, really
useful feature. Yours, of course, is not "bad advice". It's just
important to remember that, in the context of this discussion, its
utility and applicability are very limited.

When it comes to mailing lists (=communicating, via email or email
archives, with people you know nothing about):

- people posting from study or work account may not have a choice of
which email client to use

- there is no browser or mail archive manager I know of which can
collapse email quotes inside HTML pages, so everybody using the
archives has to endure overquoting, even if his or her email client
supports the feature.

- quote collapsing doesn't help a bit on a metered connection
(dial-up, GPRS, many ADSL low-end offers...): you may not see those
500 lines of text re-posted (top or bottom is irrelevant) just to
add "I agree", but you will have still paid for them anyway.

That's why I started this related thread. Trim as much as possible
when you reply to a mailing list, and you'll make everybody happy, be
they top or bottom posters. Very often, top or bottom posting is a
problem and a flamewar starter ONLY because of lack of trimming.

Marco Fioretti
http://mfioretti.net
--
Your own civil rights and the quality of your life heavily depend on how
software is used *around* you: http://digifreedom.net/node/84

--
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Old 02-27-2009, 06:05 PM
Ray Leventhal
 
Default Note on TRIMMING, was: Why do people detest top posting so much?

<snip>
> That's why I started this related thread. Trim as much as possible
> when you reply to a mailing list, and you'll make everybody happy, be
> they top or bottom posters. Very often, top or bottom posting is a
> problem and a flamewar starter ONLY because of lack of trimming.
>
> Marco Fioretti
> http://mfioretti.net
>

I wholly agree with Marco's points and especially this last paragraph
(quoted above). The issue of top or bottom posting isn't anything more
than, at least on this list, the decision to follow suggested etiquette
_for this list_.

Reference:
http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists/etiquette

The request of the list maintainers is plain. Trim replies and bottom
post. I realize that some user preferences come into play regarding top
or bottom posting and that's fine. I subscribe to a lot of lists and
while most do ask to bottom post, I don't get into a tizzy on lists that
either 1) don't care or 2) request top posting. I choose to
subscribe/read their lists so I find it to be a simple matter of
courtesy to follow their particular etiquette.

-Ray

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Old 02-28-2009, 12:12 AM
Res
 
Default Note on TRIMMING, was: Why do people detest top posting so much?

Dotan,

On Fri, 27 Feb 2009, Dotan Cohen wrote:

>I agree. I am using a known-broken email client (gmail) for very
>specific reasons. Despite that, I simply _move_the_cursor_down_ and
>then I don't have to top post.

The cursor is likely positioned at top so you can be polite in starting
your reply by using "posters_name" or Dear ....
At which time you can then cursor down, deleting irrelevant content to
your reply, and breaking up the message replying inline to the relevant
segments (such as by this posts intro and reply) which has always been the
actual real good netizen method, bottom posting or no beter then top
posting. In years gone by you would be chastised for that as well as top
posting as any ol timers here would be well aware of.

>Users can use whatever email client they choose. Logically, the users

No arguments there.

--
Res

-Beware of programmers who carry screwdrivers

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Old 02-28-2009, 09:09 PM
Dotan Cohen
 
Default Note on TRIMMING, was: Why do people detest top posting so much?

> At which time you can then cursor down, deleting irrelevant content to
> your reply, and breaking up the message replying inline to the relevant
> segments (such as by this posts intro and reply) which has always been the
> actual real good netizen method, bottom posting or no beter then top
> posting.

Agreed, I can live with top posting so long as the thread's been trimmed!

--
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il

א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-*-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת
ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-*-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه*-و-ي
А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-*-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-*-Ю-Я
а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я
ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü
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