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Old 12-27-2007, 02:15 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default bug in ubuntu "kill" hardrive

Dotan Cohen wrote:

> On 26/12/2007, manuel mizael gonzalez contreras <nolitomas@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>> is true that there is a bug that makes that the hard disk get killed?
>
> It is true that there is such a bug. It is not true that the bug is in
> Ubuntu.

That is the really annoying attitude that the Ubuntu devs have taken. It's
wrong, and wrong-headed.

> The bug is in the default hard drive configuration as set by the
> manufacturer. The reason that Windows does not hammer the drive is
> because Windows has yet another bug, which causes the OS to ignore the
> drive's default configuration settings.

I don't believe you can prove that. imo (and that of many others) the "bug"
is that the default drive configurations are reasonable, but Ubuntu is
causing periodic writes that keep waking up the drive just after it has
retracted the head. Windows doesn't do that - tests on Windows have shown
that it probably does respect those defaults, unless the defaults are
specifically wrong in the current situation. Ubuntu _need_ not wake the
drive so often - but it would need all apps doing I/O to be fixed. It
should take the (apparent) Windows approach that if the drive is being
force to wake too often, the timer should be extended. Instead, the devs
just insist its the manufacturer's fault, and that complaints should be
directed there (to which we all know, they'd say "this drive is not
certified to work with Linux"). And then they complain that people are
making too many posts to the bug report...
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Old 12-27-2007, 02:17 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default bug in ubuntu "kill" hardrive

Nils Kassube wrote:

> Cybe R. Wizard wrote:
>> "Dotan Cohen" <dotancohen@gmail.com> said:
>> > The bug is in the default hard drive configuration as set by the
>> > manufacturer. The reason that Windows does not hammer the drive is
>> > because Windows has yet another bug, which causes the OS to ignore
>> > the drive's default configuration settings. So there you have what I
>> > like to call an even number of bugs, which 'fix' each other.
>>
>> <tin-hat mode>
>> Sounds like an under-the-table agreement between M$ and HD manufacturer
>> to discredit Linux!
>> </tin-hat mode>
>
> Oh, great! I love conspiracy theories (epecially about MS), but this is
> not true. Otherwise there would be the same conspiracy with previous
> Linux distributions. I.e. Ubuntu Dapper doesn't have the bug.

I don't think that's true either. Dapper would have the bug, if it had
strigi, beagle, and who knows how many other apps continuously hammering
the drives.
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Old 12-27-2007, 03:57 PM
Nils Kassube
 
Default bug in ubuntu "kill" hardrive

Derek Broughton wrote:
> Nils Kassube wrote:
> > Cybe R. Wizard wrote:
> >> "Dotan Cohen" <dotancohen@gmail.com> said:
> >> > The bug is in the default hard drive configuration as set by the
> >> > manufacturer. The reason that Windows does not hammer the drive is
> >> > because Windows has yet another bug, which causes the OS to ignore
> >> > the drive's default configuration settings. So there you have what
> >> > I like to call an even number of bugs, which 'fix' each other.
> >>
> >> <tin-hat mode>
> >> Sounds like an under-the-table agreement between M$ and HD
> >> manufacturer to discredit Linux!
> >> </tin-hat mode>
> >
> > Oh, great! I love conspiracy theories (epecially about MS), but this
> > is not true. Otherwise there would be the same conspiracy with
> > previous Linux distributions. I.e. Ubuntu Dapper doesn't have the
> > bug.
>
> I don't think that's true either. Dapper would have the bug, if it had
> strigi, beagle, and who knows how many other apps continuously
> hammering the drives.

IMHO, the bug has nothing to do with applications running but with a
setting for the hard disk to unload the head after a short time of no
activity. Unfortunately, not all hard disks behave the same. The
S.M.A.R.T. setting is interpreted different by different manufacturers
because it is no real standard. Therefore the delay is different for every
hard disk type.

I have tested the existance of the bug with Dapper, Gutsy and Windows XP
Pro when it was mentioned on Slashdot. The short version of the test
result: I could only verify it with Gutsy. But considering the date of
the bug report, it probably existed since Feisty. The long version can be
found in the archive of ubuntu-users and/or kubuntu-users (if you want to
read some numbers which apply only for my disk).


Nils

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Old 12-27-2007, 04:25 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default bug in ubuntu "kill" hardrive

Nils Kassube wrote:

> Derek Broughton wrote:
>>
>> I don't think that's true either. Dapper would have the bug, if it had
>> strigi, beagle, and who knows how many other apps continuously
>> hammering the drives.
>
> IMHO, the bug has nothing to do with applications running but with a
> setting for the hard disk to unload the head after a short time of no
> activity.

It has to do with applications _periodically_ writing to the disc - with a
period just a little larger than the HD settings.

> Unfortunately, not all hard disks behave the same. The
> S.M.A.R.T. setting is interpreted different by different manufacturers
> because it is no real standard. Therefore the delay is different for every
> hard disk type.

The delay is whatever the manufacturer considers to be reasonable for the
hardware - it _should_ be different for every hd type. It could be set to
any value, but Gutsy would tend to wake up the drive in any case. If you
set the parameter high enough to not be a problem, Gutsy will simply
_never_ let it sleep. That's the same as disabling it, but it's plain
wrong. There's a good reason for the setting to exist.

> I have tested the existance of the bug with Dapper, Gutsy and Windows XP
> Pro when it was mentioned on Slashdot. The short version of the test
> result: I could only verify it with Gutsy. But considering the date of
> the bug report, it probably existed since Feisty. The long version can be
> found in the archive of ubuntu-users and/or kubuntu-users (if you want to
> read some numbers which apply only for my disk).

It's not conceivable that with the same amount and type of I/O that the same
situation wouldn't happen in Dapper - ie, it's not a kernel issue, it's an
I/O issue.
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Old 12-27-2007, 05:55 PM
Nils Kassube
 
Default bug in ubuntu "kill" hardrive

Derek Broughton wrote:
> Nils Kassube wrote:
> > I have tested the existance of the bug with Dapper, Gutsy and Windows
> > XP Pro when it was mentioned on Slashdot. The short version of the
> > test result: I could only verify it with Gutsy. But considering the
> > date of the bug report, it probably existed since Feisty. The long
> > version can be found in the archive of ubuntu-users and/or
> > kubuntu-users (if you want to read some numbers which apply only for
> > my disk).
>
> It's not conceivable that with the same amount and type of I/O that the
> same situation wouldn't happen in Dapper - ie, it's not a kernel issue,
> it's an I/O issue.

With Dapper, at least my disk doesn't unload the head, i.e. the problem of
repeated load/unload doesn't exist.


Nils

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Old 12-27-2007, 07:20 PM
David Vincent
 
Default bug in ubuntu "kill" hardrive

Derek Broughton wrote:

> That workaround is not _simple_. It's a pain in the butt, for potentially
> little gain. It takes far more than a "competent" user to know whether it
> is safer to disable the head retraction or to put up with some increased
> heat in the drive. While it should have been obvious that it isn't
> Ubuntu-specific, I'd be surprised if there are very many people who've read
> the entire bug report. It goes on and on and on, and the Ubuntu devs don't
> seem to care much and _nobody_ knows how serious it really is.

that last bit is true. as for the first bit it took me five minutes to
implement the fix when i followed the instructions. in my opinion
that's an easy fix.

-d

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Old 12-27-2007, 07:21 PM
David Vincent
 
Default bug in ubuntu "kill" hardrive

Ari Torhamo wrote:
> ke, 2007-12-26 kello 20:36 -0800, David Vincent kirjoitti:
>
>> if you read that page you also saw there is a very easy workaround to
>> the problem. annoying? yes. weak point? not really. not to a
>> competent user.
>
> This is a great idea. Let's declare the world that there are no weak
> points in Ubuntu, there are just incompetent users :-)

you've never been a network admin have you? all users are incompetent.

but yeah, "competent" as i used it was a poor choice of words. perhaps
i should have said "not to a user who actually cares about their system".

-d

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Old 12-27-2007, 07:55 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default bug in ubuntu "kill" hardrive

David Vincent wrote:

> Derek Broughton wrote:
>
>> That workaround is not _simple_. It's a pain in the butt, for
>> potentially
>> little gain. It takes far more than a "competent" user to know whether
>> it is safer to disable the head retraction or to put up with some
>> increased heat in the drive. While it should have been obvious that it
>> isn't Ubuntu-specific, I'd be surprised if there are very many people
>> who've read
>> the entire bug report. It goes on and on and on, and the Ubuntu devs
>> don't seem to care much and _nobody_ knows how serious it really is.
>
> that last bit is true. as for the first bit it took me five minutes to
> implement the fix when i followed the instructions. in my opinion
> that's an easy fix.

It's easy to do - but is it safe? I'm not convinced and not willing to take
the risk of installing that script (on the grounds that I really don't
think it's going to kill the drive before I upgrade my system). Then of
course, there's the matter of _where_ to put it. Someone (Nils?) suggested
rc.local - that's fine for a desktop, but useless for a laptop that gets
hibernated/resumed. There are iirc 3 different suggestions in the bug
report.
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Old 12-27-2007, 09:21 PM
Nils Kassube
 
Default bug in ubuntu "kill" hardrive

Derek Broughton wrote:
> It's easy to do - but is it safe? I'm not convinced and not willing to
> take the risk of installing that script (on the grounds that I really
> don't think it's going to kill the drive before I upgrade my system).
> Then of course, there's the matter of _where_ to put it. Someone
> (Nils?) suggested rc.local - that's fine for a desktop, but useless for
> a laptop that gets hibernated/resumed.

Thanks for mentioning hibernate/resume - I have just checked it and my
solution with /etc/rc.local doesn't work for hibernate/resume. But I
never use that anyway although it is a laptop


Nils

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Old 01-06-2008, 10:26 AM
Oliver Grawert
 
Default bug in ubuntu "kill" hardrive

hi,
On Di, 2007-12-25 at 22:22 -0500, manuel mizael gonzalez contreras
wrote:
> is true that there is a bug that makes that the hard disk get killed?
it is true that there is a bug that makes HD lifetime shorter, but its
not ubuntu specific, see this article (probaly someone should link that
to the bug as its the best explanation of the prob i've seen so far):

http://lwn.net/Articles/257426/

ciao
oli
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