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Old 01-19-2009, 02:01 AM
Derek Broughton
 
Default off topic but appropriate

tom arnall wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> This post is off topic, but please read it as I think you will consider it
> appropriate.

Perhaps not, but I don't care :-)
>
> First the question:
>
> Why do you use this maillist instead of the ubuntu users forum?

Because I'm a dinosaur, and find web forums essentially unreadable?
Because I like the fact that my reader (actually NNTP, not email) grabs
everything and presents it to me whether I'm actually online or not?

Take your pick. Mail lists, or news servers, cater to the people who don't
have fulltime / high bandwidth connections. They also cater to people who
just don't really understand web forums. I fit both categories.

> I ask this question because I am working to organize a maillist for
> political discussion. You may ask, "There are hundreds of them already.
> Why add another?"

No, actually I ask "why do you make the distinction"? There are plenty of
websites that gate mailing lists, so that you can do it both ways (though
there are enough differences between the two formats that some people will
always be annoyed by too little or too much quoting...)



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Old 01-19-2009, 02:03 AM
Derek Broughton
 
Default off topic but appropriate

Matthew Flaschen wrote:

> tom arnall wrote:
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>> This post is off topic, but please read it as I think you will consider
>> it appropriate.
>>
>> First the question:
>>
>> Why do you use this maillist instead of the ubuntu users forum?
>
> To put it simply, "I make 'em come to me". I don't want to have to
> navigate to various forum web pages and use clunky inconsistent
> interfaces. Even with RSS notifications, this is annoying.

Depends on the feed. I'm using them more and more, but I absolutely HATE
the ones that give you a one line subject and then make you click on a link
to get the content. Why even bother with RSS in that case?




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Old 01-19-2009, 03:02 AM
Steve Lamb
 
Default off topic but appropriate

tom arnall wrote:
> Why do you use this maillist instead of the ubuntu users forum?

I use both. Who says you have to use one or the other? However I prefer
mailing lists. Actually I would prefer newsgroups over mailing lists for what
mailing lists do but that's not because of the medium but because of the tools
designed for handling newsgroups.

But why a mailing list over a webforum? Well, let's look at the
difference between Ubuntu-Users (U-U) and Ubuntu Forums (UF).

In U-U all the mail is waiting for me when I open up Thunderbird.
Discussions are threaded so it is trivial to follow the flow of conversations
and skip subthreads which have diverged into a direction that no longer
interests me. I can comment on specific messages without having to provide an
undo amount of context. Also I can reply to several different messages in
succession without "spamming" the topic.

If UF I go to the main page and get to see a snapshot of the 10-12 latest
posts. To find other messages that interest me I have to dig through the
interface and actively search for topics marked with "new" posts. Those
topics are not threaded. It is impossible to skip tangents that no longer
interest me. Furthermore I can't reply to several messages at once without
being considered as spamming the topic. Of particular note is the fact that
webforums in general are trending towards quoting as the normal style of reply
along with a link to the original to provide a crude form of threading. IE,
webforums are gradually groping their way to what we have already in mailing
lists.

I forgot to mention. Mailing list, I get to choose the editor. Webforum,
I have to use the editor installed on the forum or manually hand code all the
markup. Mailing lists, text-only. Webforums, not text-only.

For a longer explanation (as if this weren't verbose enough) here's what I
wrote about IRC, IM and Twitter. The same sequence is playing out vis a vis
newsgroups, mailing lists and webforums.
http://greydmiyu.wordpress.com/2008/12/10/round-and-round-2/

> I ask this question because I am working to organize a maillist for political
> discussion. You may ask, "There are hundreds of them already. Why add
> another?" The short answer is that for all practical purposes no one uses
> them, although people use political forums like commondreams.org extensively.
> Understanding this difference in participation is the next step in my
> project.

The problem with mailing lists for political discussion... outside of
D-U... is that generally people come to mailing lists for a common interest.
IE, I'm an Atheist Libertarian. Why would I join an Evangelical Republican
mailing list? So I can bang my head against things about which their mind
won't change? Nah, better uses for my time. And mailing lists for political
discussion between groups is just a powder keg waiting to happen because the
die-hard, no-mind-changing people are going to hammer at each other, drown out
the the people who might want to discuss ideas and are open to change until
they leave.

As for the webforums I doubt you're seeing real discussion. It's a place
which makes it easy for one side to collect and for the other side to take
quick pot-shots and never return.

--
Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream
PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

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Old 01-19-2009, 12:51 PM
"Cybe R. Wizard"
 
Default off topic but appropriate

steve <sfreilly@roadrunner.com> said:
> i
> get every post sent to my email account so i dont have to go to a web
> page and click 6 thousand times to read all the posts, and reply.

ACK that. If the forums were all the help available I would just have
to fail at solving some of my problems.

Cybe R. Wizard
--
Nice computers don't go down.
Larry Niven, Steven Barnes
"The Barsoom Project"

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Old 01-19-2009, 01:43 PM
"Ken T."
 
Default off topic but appropriate

On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 10:29:48 -0800, tom arnall wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> This post is off topic, but please read it as I think you will consider
> it appropriate.
>
> First the question:
>
> Why do you use this maillist instead of the ubuntu users forum?
>
> I ask this question because I am working to organize a maillist for
> political discussion. You may ask, "There are hundreds of them already.
> Why add another?" The short answer is that for all practical purposes no
> one uses them, although people use political forums like
> commondreams.org extensively. Understanding this difference in
> participation is the next step in my project.
>
> Thanks in advance for your help,
>
> tom arnall
> arcata

I can read this mailing list using NNTP from Gmane. I like this better
than web forums. Of course if I want to discuss politics there are any
number of newsgroups to do so. Unless you have something really
interesting to add, I would find a different project.

--
Ken T. <ktectropy@gmail.com>


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Old 01-19-2009, 02:15 PM
musicman
 
Default off topic but appropriate

I use both.

For instance, look at the recent thread on ssh security on this list -
you can't or don't get that vitality on a forum.

note that the question also ignores the irc channel #ubuntu that is
also useful...

networked cultures have networked solutions...I think of it like the 3
blind men and the elephant problem - with enough rays of light from
enough sources you can see even the largest of things..."many eyeballs
make bugs shallow" et al...

L.



On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Ken T. <ktectropy@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 10:29:48 -0800, tom arnall wrote:
>
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>> This post is off topic, but please read it as I think you will consider
>> it appropriate.
>>
>> First the question:
>>
>> Why do you use this maillist instead of the ubuntu users forum?
>>
>> I ask this question because I am working to organize a maillist for
>> political discussion. You may ask, "There are hundreds of them already.
>> Why add another?" The short answer is that for all practical purposes no
>> one uses them, although people use political forums like
>> commondreams.org extensively. Understanding this difference in
>> participation is the next step in my project.
>>
>> Thanks in advance for your help,
>>
>> tom arnall
>> arcata
>
> I can read this mailing list using NNTP from Gmane. I like this better
> than web forums. Of course if I want to discuss politics there are any
> number of newsgroups to do so. Unless you have something really
> interesting to add, I would find a different project.
>
> --
> Ken T. <ktectropy@gmail.com>
>
>
> --
> ubuntu-users mailing list
> ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
>



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Old 01-20-2009, 12:30 AM
steve
 
Default off topic but appropriate

Cybe R. Wizard wrote:
> steve <sfreilly@roadrunner.com> said:
>> i
>> get every post sent to my email account so i dont have to go to a web
>> page and click 6 thousand times to read all the posts, and reply.
>
> ACK that. If the forums were all the help available I would just have
> to fail at solving some of my problems.

heck, if it wasnt for this list, and a couple others I doubt id be using
linux as in depth as I am now, 6 years and loving it.... thanks!




--
Steve Reilly

http://reillyblog.com

~ Netiquette ~
http://www.writerswrite.com/journal/dec99/pirillo1.htm





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