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Old 12-09-2008, 10:32 AM
Knapp
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

I just learned of this site. It is really cool and comes in a LOT of languages!
http://www.whylinuxisbetter.net/
Best,
--
Douglas E Knapp

Amazon Gift Cards; let them choose!!
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001078FFE?ie=UTF8&tag=seattlebujinkand&linkCode=a s2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B001078FF E

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Old 12-09-2008, 11:16 AM
"Dotan Cohen"
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

2008/12/9 Knapp <magick.crow@gmail.com>:
> I just learned of this site. It is really cool and comes in a LOT of languages!
> http://www.whylinuxisbetter.net/
> Best,

If people are happy with Windows, why force them to move to Linux?
Linux is not better, it is different. Would you like me to show you
why Windows is better?

--
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il

א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-*-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת
ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-*-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه*-و-ي
А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-*-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-*-Ю-Я
а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я
ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü
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Old 12-09-2008, 11:44 AM
"Allen Meyers"
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 5:16 AM, Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> wrote:

2008/12/9 Knapp <magick.crow@gmail.com>:

> I just learned of this site. It is really cool and comes in a LOT of languages!

> http://www.whylinuxisbetter.net/

> Best,



If people are happy with Windows, why force them to move to Linux?

Linux is not better, it is different. Would you like me to show you

why Windows is better?



--

Dotan Cohen



http://what-is-what.com

http://gibberish.co.il



א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-*-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-*-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه*-و-ي

А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-*-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-*-Ю-Я

а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я

ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

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Each of us given our attitudes, circumstances and perspectives go to Linux with either a minimal amout of baggage or loaded with the "have and have nots" Most is about files, access, packages and the like and each of us must take into account

the arena that windows or Linux users comes from.
I no longer have windows on my PC because its not part of my adventure and to me at 77 years old Linux is an adventure. I have Ubuntu 8.10, etch in Debian and SUSE 11 KDE 3.5. That is my perspective and as Dotan aluded to we all bring different appetites to the table.

Just a retired Chef's two cents
Wine gets better with age and age gets better with Linux

Cheers
--
Allen Meyers
texas.chef94@gmail.com

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Old 12-09-2008, 11:57 AM
Knapp
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:16 PM, Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2008/12/9 Knapp <magick.crow@gmail.com>:
>> I just learned of this site. It is really cool and comes in a LOT of languages!
>> http://www.whylinuxisbetter.net/
>> Best,
>
> If people are happy with Windows, why force them to move to Linux?
> Linux is not better, it is different. Would you like me to show you
> why Windows is better?
>
> --
> Dotan Cohen

There is no "force" here. If Windows were better, I for one would love
to know about it! I might even switch back, if I had a lot of free
cash to give away.

Having used Windows for years, studied with MS programmers and lived
in Seattle, I know what windows is. Why Linux is better is very
interesting to me and I posted it because I thought others might want
to know also. I personally think MS is on the more evil side of life.
Many people would be much happier with Linux if they knew why they
would benefit from changing and then made the change.

Making the change from MS to Linux is hard. It took me a year to start
to feel at home with Linux. Now I would NEVER go back because of the
power and freedom that comes with this system. The politics of Linux
and the free software movement is also a bonus for me! I think that
the more informend people are the more likely they are to do the work
of changing. With more people comes more power to get things like
drivers working in Linux.
--
Douglas E Knapp

Amazon Gift Cards; let them choose!!
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001078FFE?ie=UTF8&tag=seattlebujinkand&linkCode=a s2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B001078FF E

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Old 12-09-2008, 12:06 PM
Gilles Gravier
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

Knapp,


Knapp wrote:
> I just learned of this site. It is really cool and comes in a LOT of languages!
> http://www.whylinuxisbetter.net/
> Best,
>


There is a risk inherent to that approach. It's an invitation for direct
rebutals of each point. Let me play devils advocate and address some of
the points on the site to show you.

- Forget about viruses. This is plain wrong. While there are A LOT LESS
VIRUSES ON LINUX, there are. They are just harder to write, and since
Linux isn't as widely spread as Windows, the ROI isn't as good. Also, a
lot of viruses today spread in the form of platform independent actions
(cross-site scripting, javascript...). Those are just as bad on Linux as
they are on Windows and MacOS.

- Is your system unstable. *IF* your hardware is properly supported by
the current kernel. Try runnin Linux on a machine with ATI chipsets (not
just graphics, but the rest as well - like a Shuttle ST20G5 machine)...
you'll learn about (lack of) stability of Linux.

- Linux protects your computer. See point on viruses above.

- Don't pay $300 for your OS. Fine. But NetBSD is free also. OpenSolaris
is free also. Most people get their OS with their machine. For them, the
price of the OS is hidden (I didn't say ZERO). They don't see the need
for an alternative from a price point of view.

- Freedom. Of what? If I made the free choice to leave Windows on a
machine... I have just as wide a choice of apps to run on it. Where is
Linux giving me more freedom?

- When the system was installed, why would you still need to install
stuff. Maybe because most Linux versions don't ship with Skype, with
libdvdcss, with Stellarium, with... shall I add more? You STILL need to
install stuff.

- Forget about drivers. Total fud. Try to plug a fancy 3G phone in a
linux machine and do OBEX or use your PC as the phones internet server.
Some features will work. Others won't. Of course, plug the same phone in
Windows and stick in the vendor CD and everything works. Yeah... forget
about drivers. If your hardware doesn't come with Linux drivers, you are
likely out of luck.

- Update all your software with a single click. *IF* it was installed by
the package manager. If you did a manual install, you're dead. For
example, today, OpenOffice.org 3.0 isn't in the standard repository of
Ubuntu. You have to remove 2.4.x and download and manually install
3.0.0... and updates won't be automatic.

- Why copy software illegally if you can get it for free. Careful there.
There are very valid commercial software on Linux. Don't try to let
people think that if it runs on Linux, it can be used for Free.
AutoPanorama which I use for fancy photo panoramas is commercial... even
on Linux. Crossover office is commercial... even on Linux. Oracle is
commercial... even on Linux. I can add more to this list.

- Need new software? Don't bother searching... unless you are looking
for the apps mentionned in the point above... or ANY application that
isn't in Synaptics.

- Jump into the next generation of desktops. I thought that was MacOS?
Seriously... nobody knows what the NEXT generation of desktop will be
like.

- Does your digital life seem fragmented? No... Not on my OpenSolaris
laptop with ZFS filesystem. Oh wait... you were comparing with Windows.
Yeah. But neither NetBSD nor OpenSolaris show fragmentation. Is Linux
better here? Than what?

- Choose what your desktop looks like. Probably the one of the few ONLY
one that are valid (unless you count themers for Windows as alternatives).

- Why does your Windows get slower every day. Because most Windows users
download millions of apps and don't even uninstall them. Of course the
fact that Windows doesn't properly uninstall everything helps... Same as
above. One of the few only ones that are valid.

- Do something for the environment. Right. So don't buy your Linux in
boxes in shops either. Why do Linux distros STILL insist on being sold
in boxes if they want to be green like that? Be coherent before you are
green.

- No back doors... like the very famous backdoor in the ATT C compilers
that inserted specific code in login daemon when you compiled login
daemon's source code and resulted in a system with back doors? Yes...
open source HELPS. HELPS A LOT. But it's not a guaranty. It's MUCH
BETTER. But don't completely rest on your 2 ears...

- Enjoy free and unlimited support. Yeah. How do people at Ubuntu live?
They sell support contracts. For the average user, you can work with
free community support... just as most Windows home users do... for
enterprises, they get Linux support contracts from SuSE,
Canonical/Ubuntu, Red Hat, Mandriva... just as they do with
Microsoft/Windows.

- Use all IM protocols in one single client. Yes. Pidgin runs on Windows
as well. In fact, Trillian, an alternative to Pidgin, which also
supports all IM protocols only runs on Windows... not Linux.

- Too many windows? Use workspaces. I have 2 screens on my machine.
Easier to move mouse from left screen to right than to use workspaces.

- Tired of rebooting your system? OK. Then avoid kernel updates on Linux.

- Let your old computer have a second life. Yes. Put NetBSD on it. Much
more lightweight than Linux.

- Play hundreds of games for free. Probably the same as on Windows. Oh
wait... Windows has even more.

- Help other countries and your own. Yes. The THIRD one on the list to
be true (though Microsoft and others will debate that point)

- Get a great music player. Strangely enough, most Linux music players
try to reproduce the feature set and comfort of iTunes... which comes
from MacOS and runs on Windows but not on... Linux. If the Linux music
players were so great... why would they try to reproduce iTunes? Why not
design something totally different from the start? Oh... And a lot of
them (Songbird, aTunes) run on Windows. Amarok (the one illustrated on
the web site) is being ported to Windows.

- Keep an eye on the weather. There are actually too many weather
information tools on Windows to keep track of. Most of them free.
Weather-Watcher from Singer's Creations is a good example. Free and on
Windows. Much better, in fact, in terms of information provided, than
what you get on Linux.


So you see, of the points listed... 3 are probably really defendable...
the rest, just about anybody can come with rebutals.

The reasons to use Linux are many... but saying Linux is better is
dangerous (at best).

I use OpenSolaris on my work laptop (with just about everything I need
on it). I use Ubuntu on my EeePC and my home server. I use Windows on my
home desktop because I need Photoshop's RAW processing features and my
astronomy software (Starry Night Pro) and the Nokia synchronisation
suite (firmware update only runs on Windows) and a few more fancy
features like proper support for my Epson R800 printer (ink levels, and
some specific photo rendering features)... My Nokia uses Symbian - I
chose it for that aspect. Oh... and my Wii has an OS which I have no
idea what it is and I don't care - it runs the games I want on it fine.

I like choice. I chose depending on the use. I don't close doors. And I
don't go into comparison attemps doomed for failure.

Gilles.


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Old 12-09-2008, 12:09 PM
"Dotan Cohen"
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

2008/12/9 Knapp <magick.crow@gmail.com>:
> There is no "force" here. If Windows were better, I for one would love
> to know about it! I might even switch back, if I had a lot of free
> cash to give away.
>

Windows has better accessibility features. Scratch that- Windows HAS
accessibility features. Gnome has nothing useful other, and all of
KDE's accessibility features were abandoned in KDE 4.

Windows has software for professionals. In my profession, engineering,
what CAD software is available for Linux?

> Having used Windows for years, studied with MS programmers and lived
> in Seattle, I know what windows is. Why Linux is better is very
> interesting to me and I posted it because I thought others might want
> to know also. I personally think MS is on the more evil side of life.

Evil? MS is a business, it is their job to lock you in.

> Many people would be much happier with Linux if they knew why they
> would benefit from changing and then made the change.
>

And what they would be missing as well.

> Making the change from MS to Linux is hard.

Then don't do it. I should switch you from Toyota to Ford, because
Ford is right for me.

> It took me a year to start
> to feel at home with Linux. Now I would NEVER go back because of the
> power and freedom that comes with this system. The politics of Linux
> and the free software movement is also a bonus for me!

And those who need those freedoms can use their FOSS programs on
Windows. What freedom-giving Linux software does not run on Windows?

> I think that
> the more informend people are the more likely they are to do the work
> of changing.

That is true, if there is a benefit to that work.

> With more people comes more power to get things like
> drivers working in Linux.

I agree with this 100%..

Note that I have not had any MS software in our household since
October 2005. However, it is not because I hate MS or because I am on
a mission to convert the world. It is because Linux suits our
household. That is not true for every household.

--
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il

א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-*-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת
ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-*-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه*-و-ي
А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-*-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-*-Ю-Я
а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я
ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü
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Old 12-09-2008, 12:23 PM
"Dotan Cohen"
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

2008/12/9 Gilles Gravier <gilles@gravier.org>:
> - Don't pay $300 for your OS. Fine. But NetBSD is free also. OpenSolaris
> is free also. Most people get their OS with their machine. For them, the
> price of the OS is hidden (I didn't say ZERO). They don't see the need
> for an alternative from a price point of view.
>

Better yet, all your 'converts' already bought Windows (or pirated it).

> - When the system was installed, why would you still need to install
> stuff. Maybe because most Linux versions don't ship with Skype, with
> libdvdcss, with Stellarium, with... shall I add more? You STILL need to
> install stuff.
>

Haha, when the 'converts' try to play their first MP3 file they will
find out what codec support their is in Linux! Or if their ISP
requires a dialer (even broadband needs this in many countries) then
the user cannot connect to the 'net at all in Linux. Ha!

> - Forget about drivers. Total fud. Try to plug a fancy 3G phone in a
> linux machine and do OBEX or use your PC as the phones internet server.
> Some features will work. Others won't. Of course, plug the same phone in
> Windows and stick in the vendor CD and everything works. Yeah... forget
> about drivers. If your hardware doesn't come with Linux drivers, you are
> likely out of luck.
>

How about Lexmark, Brother, and other non-HP printers? Webcams? USB
modems? Notebook docks? Fancy mice? Fancy keyboards? Shall I go on?

> - Update all your software with a single click. *IF* it was installed by
> the package manager. If you did a manual install, you're dead. For
> example, today, OpenOffice.org 3.0 isn't in the standard repository of
> Ubuntu. You have to remove 2.4.x and download and manually install
> 3.0.0... and updates won't be automatic.
>

Thank you, that is the one feature that every Windows user needs. He
knows it, too, and will learn a new OS from scratch so that all this
strange new software can connect to the internet and change itself
automatically!

> - Why copy software illegally if you can get it for free. Careful there.
> There are very valid commercial software on Linux. Don't try to let
> people think that if it runs on Linux, it can be used for Free.
> AutoPanorama which I use for fancy photo panoramas is commercial... even
> on Linux. Crossover office is commercial... even on Linux. Oracle is
> commercial... even on Linux. I can add more to this list.
>

I only wish that there were more commercial software on Linux.

> - Need new software? Don't bother searching... unless you are looking
> for the apps mentionned in the point above... or ANY application that
> isn't in Synaptics.
>
> - Jump into the next generation of desktops. I thought that was MacOS?
> Seriously... nobody knows what the NEXT generation of desktop will be
> like.
>

What is wrong with the current generation of desktops?

> - Does your digital life seem fragmented? No... Not on my OpenSolaris
> laptop with ZFS filesystem. Oh wait... you were comparing with Windows.
> Yeah. But neither NetBSD nor OpenSolaris show fragmentation. Is Linux
> better here? Than what?
>

Fragmentation? What is that? (Windows power users know, but not casual users).

> - Choose what your desktop looks like. Probably the one of the few ONLY
> one that are valid (unless you count themers for Windows as alternatives).
>

Nobody cares. Really. Actually, the lack of consistency makes things
_difficult_.

> - Why does your Windows get slower every day. Because most Windows users
> download millions of apps and don't even uninstall them. Of course the
> fact that Windows doesn't properly uninstall everything helps... Same as
> above. One of the few only ones that are valid.
>

That is a iser problem, not an OS problem. Do you think that the user
will magically stop downloading new programs to try on this new shiny
OS? You know, the OS that gives him CHOICE! The choice of 20 office
suites (non of them compatible with each other or with the dominant
office suite in the market, mind you), 20 email clients, and 20
desktops? Then what good was all that choice?

> - Do something for the environment. Right. So don't buy your Linux in
> boxes in shops either. Why do Linux distros STILL insist on being sold
> in boxes if they want to be green like that? Be coherent before you are
> green.
>

WTF? The electricity to run my modem and 500 watt computer cannot be
recycled like the software box can.

> - No back doors... like the very famous backdoor in the ATT C compilers
> that inserted specific code in login daemon when you compiled login
> daemon's source code and resulted in a system with back doors? Yes...
> open source HELPS. HELPS A LOT. But it's not a guaranty. It's MUCH
> BETTER. But don't completely rest on your 2 ears...
>

Debian SSL?

> - Enjoy free and unlimited support. Yeah. How do people at Ubuntu live?
> They sell support contracts. For the average user, you can work with
> free community support... just as most Windows home users do... for
> enterprises, they get Linux support contracts from SuSE,
> Canonical/Ubuntu, Red Hat, Mandriva... just as they do with
> Microsoft/Windows.
>

Free support from mailing lists so long as you have rtfm, stfa, don't
top post, trim properly, don't post in html, and grovel to the gurus?

> - Use all IM protocols in one single client. Yes. Pidgin runs on Windows
> as well. In fact, Trillian, an alternative to Pidgin, which also
> supports all IM protocols only runs on Windows... not Linux.
>

For text. If you want to use video, audio, scratchpad, or send files
over IM, then it's back to windows my friend.

> - Too many windows? Use workspaces. I have 2 screens on my machine.
> Easier to move mouse from left screen to right than to use workspaces.
>

Because the taskbar is just too easy to understand in any OS.



I'm not even going to go on. Freetards get some rest. Then when you
wake up, instead of trying to convert people to use Linux because
WINDOWS IS TEH EVILS put your energy into making Linux better. Write
to Adobe and Solidworks and request Linux versions of their software.
Write to Lexmark and request Linux drivers. And so on.

--
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il

א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-*-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת
ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-*-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه*-و-ي
А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-*-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-*-Ю-Я
а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я
ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü
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Old 12-09-2008, 12:23 PM
Bart Silverstrim
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

Dotan Cohen wrote:
> 2008/12/9 Knapp <magick.crow@gmail.com>:
>> There is no "force" here. If Windows were better, I for one would love
>> to know about it! I might even switch back, if I had a lot of free
>> cash to give away.
>>
>
> Windows has better accessibility features. Scratch that- Windows HAS
> accessibility features. Gnome has nothing useful other, and all of
> KDE's accessibility features were abandoned in KDE 4.
>
> Windows has software for professionals. In my profession, engineering,
> what CAD software is available for Linux?

Also video editing is still growing, unless you're in a niche or use
Linux as a rendering farm. iMovie is great for home users. Linux tools
tend to be buggy, glitchy or crash. Haven't used Movie Maker so I can't
comment on that.

As of 8.10 my webcams don't even work any more.

Linux is also inconsistent in it's interface as presented to users. The
Mac is far ahead in that area...even little things, like installing
programs are hit or miss as to whether they'll add a menu item to the
desktop.

Linux has several drawbacks and issues. But it has strengths too. I
can't think of a good reason to not use it if you're having to
administrate systems on a network. You can virtualize Windows for
Windows-specific functions you need, you can perform network audits and
capture network traffic more easily, you're immune to %99 of attacks
you'd normally encounter in a Windows-based network while trying to
troubleshoot issues...



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Old 12-09-2008, 12:29 PM
Florian Diesch
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

"Dotan Cohen" <dotancohen@gmail.com> wrote:

> 2008/12/9 Knapp <magick.crow@gmail.com>:
>> I just learned of this site. It is really cool and comes in a LOT of languages!
>> http://www.whylinuxisbetter.net/
>> Best,
>
> If people are happy with Windows, why force them to move to Linux?

That page doesn't force anyone to move to Linux, it just tells why
some people think Linux is better.


> Linux is not better, it is different. Would you like me to show you
> why Windows is better?

I know enough about Windows to know that it isn't better for me. But
I'd be glad to hear about the advantages of other OSes I don't know
yet, because knowing about them gives me the choice which one to use.


Florian
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Old 12-09-2008, 12:35 PM
"Sandy Harris"
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

Florian Diesch <diesch@spamfence.net> wrote:

>> Linux is not better, it is different. Would you like me to show you
>> why Windows is better?
>
> I know enough about Windows to know that it isn't better for me. But
> I'd be glad to hear about the advantages of other OSes I don't know
> yet, because knowing about them gives me the choice which one to use.

I wrote something recently on that, in the context of a discussion board
for expatriates in China:
http://raoulschinasaloon.com/index.php?topic=2460.0

--
Sandy Harris,
Quanzhou, Fujian, China

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