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Old 12-09-2008, 02:50 PM
"Dotan Cohen"
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

2008/12/9 Robert Holtzman <holtzm@cox.net>:
>> Windows has software for professionals. In my profession, engineering,
>> what CAD software is available for Linux?
>
> It depends on whether 3D modeling is needed.
>
> http://www.tech-edv.co.at/lunix/CADlinks.html
> http://linuxgazette.net/issue54/frost.html
>

3-D modelling isn't exactly CAD, either. If I am designing a more
efficient airplane wing, I need CAD. Even if I am developing a press
for making keys, I need CAD.

> It's too bad ProE discontinued linux support.
>

Too bad, indeed.

> On paper, their job is to make money for their shareholders by
> satisfying customer demand. In practice, customer demand be damned. Lock
> in is merely the tool they have chosen to use instead of actual product
> improvement to enhance usability (not the same as feature creep).
>

Making money is not done by satisfying customer demand in any
industry. Well, prostitution _may_ be an exception.

--
Dotan Cohen

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א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-*-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת
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а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я
ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü
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Old 12-09-2008, 02:52 PM
"Dotan Cohen"
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

2008/12/9 Sambit Bikas Pal <sambitbikaspal@gmail.com>:
> What is this fuss all about? Use whichever suits you the best. For me
> Windoze stinks. For someone it may be the best thing ever to have
> existed in the universe.
>

Thank you, that is the point.

For me, they both come up short. I choose the _lesser_ of two
unsatisfactory positions. That is Ubuntu, as it is improving. Windows
is only getting worse.

--
Dotan Cohen

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А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-*-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-*-Ю-Я
а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я
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Old 12-09-2008, 02:55 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

Dotan Cohen wrote:

> I don't care about that, I am an end user. I am not out to save to
> world. Sorry.

You should be. We all have an obligation to our fellows...

>> Monopoly, and other low life business acts.
>
> Monopoly is not a low-life business act. It is the goal of every
> business.

I can't let that go. Monopoly is NOT the goal of every business. I
have a business. My _goal_ is to feed my family. I would be thrilled
if I could grow the business and feed a few other families, but it's not
my primary goal. Monopoly _is_ a low-life business act, which is why
even the heartl of capitalism, the USA, has laws against it (toothless,
true, but laws all the same).
>
>> Looking at the best software on the market, copy it,
>> extend it and drive the first maker out of business (legal
>> pragarisum).

Plagiarism?

> Just what FOSS devs would do to MS, no?

No. There are some people who talk that way, but we all _know_ that
FOSS is never going to monopolize a market, and when you think about it,
it isn't even possible, because somebody will _always_ fork the code
base to go in a different direction, which will be hated by some and
loved by others.

>>> And what they would be missing as well.
>>
>> Is that a trick question? Blue screen of death maybe or a game?
>
> Or engineering software, or printer support, or those extra mouse
> buttons, or that webcam, or that IE-only banking website. I could go
> one (others have).

The first is really irrelevant - users with specialized needs have always
used specialized equipment. Engineers buy the infrastructure that
supports their tools, not vice versa. Home users, otoh, buy systems and
then throw software on them.

Printer support is also largely immaterial - you could never expect to
trade your PC for an Apple (at least in the old PPC days) and have the
old printer work on it, and it's no different with Linux. If the vendors
sell working PCs with Linux on them, they'll get working printers with
the package - there _are_ plenty to choose from.

Mouse buttons? OK, I admit I've just started using a 5-button mouse
with two dead buttons, but I'll be amazed if I can't actually make them
do something.

As for web-banking, I'd change banks if they were IE-only, no matter
whether I was a Windows user or not. I work in too many environments
where I don't control the hardware _or_ software.

Which leaves webcams... still a pita.

>>> And those who need those freedoms can use their FOSS programs on
>>> Windows. What freedom-giving Linux software does not run on Windows?

KDE?
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Old 12-09-2008, 02:57 PM
Bart Silverstrim
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

Dotan Cohen wrote:
> 2008/12/9 Robert Holtzman <holtzm@cox.net>:
>>> Windows has software for professionals. In my profession, engineering,
>>> what CAD software is available for Linux?
>> It depends on whether 3D modeling is needed.
>>
>> http://www.tech-edv.co.at/lunix/CADlinks.html
>> http://linuxgazette.net/issue54/frost.html
>>
>
> 3-D modelling isn't exactly CAD, either. If I am designing a more
> efficient airplane wing, I need CAD. Even if I am developing a press
> for making keys, I need CAD.

Probably because it seems CAD is mutating much like the antivirus
industry. Antiviruses aren't about viruses any more. They're malware.
Why? Trojans aren't viruses. Phishing pages aren't viruses. Spyware more
often than not do not act like traditional viruses. They call themselves
antivirus, but they're not. They're anti-malware.

CAD software seemed to take it's cue from the flagship AutoCAD...which
today is a behemoth application that can do everything short of actually
using a 3D printer to create your finished product. People frown on a
CAD application that just does...well,...CAD.

At least, that's my observation.


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Old 12-09-2008, 02:59 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

Dotan Cohen wrote:

> Or if their ISP
> requires a dialer (even broadband needs this in many countries) then
> the user cannot connect to the 'net at all in Linux. Ha!

Huh? You can...and have been able to for a decade, at least. I used
"pon", though wvdial has always been popular.
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Old 12-09-2008, 03:01 PM
Knapp
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

> Gilles.
Commercial developers of Linux.

You missed a big one here. This one was a bit of a shock to me. KDE
was not free! To be more exact QT (the lib of KDE) is a company.
http://trolltech.com/about/open-source-business-model
I always thought it was just like the kernal.
--
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Old 12-09-2008, 03:04 PM
Gilles Gravier
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

Hi!



Knapp wrote:


Gilles.


Commercial developers of Linux.

You missed a big one here. This one was a bit of a shock to me. KDE
was not free! To be more exact QT (the lib of KDE) is a company.
http://trolltech.com/about/open-source-business-model
I always thought it was just like the kernal.




I missed many more. I just wanted to make a point... not an exhaustive
list of (sometimes commercial) software developped by payed people in
the Linux world.



Gilles.



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Old 12-09-2008, 03:21 PM
"Cybe R. Wizard"
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

"Sandy Harris" <sandyinchina@gmail.com> said:

[...]
>
> I wrote something recently on that, in the context of a discussion
> board for expatriates in China:
> http://raoulschinasaloon.com/index.php?topic=2460.0
>
May one assume that you are Pashley on that site?

Cybe R. Wizard
--
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Larry Niven, Steven Barnes
"The Barsoom Project"

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Old 12-09-2008, 03:21 PM
"H.S."
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

Knapp wrote:

>
> Locking you in? How about treatment of workers (made my friend lie to
> his workers and then they fired the workers and made (do it or loose
> your job too) my friend train Indian workers to replace them, then
> they fired him and the Indians went back to India. (This might have
> been a subcontractor though, in has been to long since all this


I supposed you need to start realizing that this is simple capitalism at
work. The current system that you guys voted in in the US and accepted
over the ages has boiled down to more or less that a corporation's sole
objective is to make money by legal means. See, there is no mention of
morals in this system. Heck, even the term "good faith" is used in
accordance with the profit line. And all means can be made legal by
buying lobbyists and making custom laws if one has tons of money.

If it was legal for the company to train subcontractors and fire their
salaried employees, then what's wrong? Otherwise, why don't the
employees take them to court? As long as the corporation is not doing
something illegal, your system accepts it. But following morals and
conscience ("oh, I will not outsource my job to non-Americans!!"), give
me a break.

If people do not like MS, then vote for your money. If the US population
robustly believes in capitalism, then the success of MS is a pretty nice
proof that most businesses and people actually like MS.


However, only now it is appearing that capitalism is just for the
masses, not for the bathing-in-money execs. They are fine with any
system (socialism, communism, etc.) as long as their profits do not go
south.

(This was so OT!)

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Old 12-09-2008, 04:35 PM
Knapp
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 5:21 PM, H.S. <hs.samix@gmail.com> wrote:
> Knapp wrote:
>
>>
>> Locking you in? How about treatment of workers (made my friend lie to
>> his workers and then they fired the workers and made (do it or loose
>> your job too) my friend train Indian workers to replace them, then
>> they fired him and the Indians went back to India. (This might have
>> been a subcontractor though, in has been to long since all this
>
>
> I supposed you need to start realizing that this is simple capitalism at
> work.

As I understand it, it is not simple capitalism but more WTO and tax
breaks etc. I will not say my understanding is deep though.

> The current system that you guys voted in in the US and accepted
> over the ages has boiled down to more or less that a corporation's sole
> objective is to make money by legal means. See, there is no mention of
> morals in this system. Heck, even the term "good faith" is used in
> accordance with the profit line. And all means can be made legal by
> buying lobbyists and making custom laws if one has tons of money.

Sad but true. Money runs the world not nice ideas. Linux and open
source seem to be some strange thing that slips through the cracks.

> If it was legal for the company to train subcontractors and fire their
> salaried employees, then what's wrong? Otherwise, why don't the
> employees take them to court? As long as the corporation is not doing
> something illegal, your system accepts it. But following morals and
> conscience ("oh, I will not outsource my job to non-Americans!!"), give
> me a break.
>
> If people do not like MS, then vote for your money. If the US population
> robustly believes in capitalism, then the success of MS is a pretty nice
> proof that most businesses and people actually like MS.

Money, power and media control is what makes the world tick. Votes are
a bit of a sideshow that come up every few years. It is no accident
that the last few USA presidents when to the same private Uni.

Anyway this is getting off topic. I just thought that it was
interesting to see where Linux is better and it would be interesting
to see where MS is better.
--
Douglas E Knapp

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