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Old 12-09-2008, 12:45 PM
"Karl F. Larsen"
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

Dotan Cohen wrote:
> 2008/12/9 Gilles Gravier <gilles@gravier.org>:
>
>> - Don't pay $300 for your OS. Fine. But NetBSD is free also. OpenSolaris
>> is free also. Most people get their OS with their machine.
The people you can sell Linux to are those who have watched the Blue
Screen of Death on Windows just too many times. I like the phrase "Get
in touch with your IT representative". This has no meaning to 90% of the
Windows users.

Most of us have gone to Linux because it works better for us. My
last Windows boondogal was trying to get WindowsXP on my laptop. It took
several hours of work and still failed. I got Ubuntu Intrepid loaded and
running fine on that same laptop.

Karl


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Old 12-09-2008, 12:49 PM
"Mark Haney"
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

Gilles Gravier wrote:
> Knapp,
>
>
> Knapp wrote:
>> I just learned of this site. It is really cool and comes in a LOT of languages!
>> http://www.whylinuxisbetter.net/
>> Best,
>>
>

Let me play a little more devil's advocate here.
>
> There is a risk inherent to that approach. It's an invitation for direct
> rebutals of each point. Let me play devils advocate and address some of
> the points on the site to show you.
>
> - Forget about viruses. This is plain wrong. While there are A LOT LESS
> VIRUSES ON LINUX, there are. They are just harder to write, and since
> Linux isn't as widely spread as Windows, the ROI isn't as good. Also, a
> lot of viruses today spread in the form of platform independent actions
> (cross-site scripting, javascript...). Those are just as bad on Linux as
> they are on Windows and MacOS.

The 'there are no viruses in linux' talk is exactly what's going to give
us trouble. There ARE viruses in linux. The problem is a matter of
popularity, the more widely used an OS (see the recent Mac problem with
a posting about antivirus software) the more likely writers are going to
target it. The security structure of linux (and Mac) is such that
viruses are more difficult to cause widespread damage, but they still /can/.

>
> - Is your system unstable. *IF* your hardware is properly supported by
> the current kernel. Try runnin Linux on a machine with ATI chipsets (not
> just graphics, but the rest as well - like a Shuttle ST20G5 machine)...
> you'll learn about (lack of) stability of Linux.

I really disagree with this. I run an all ATI chipset on several of my
systems (in fact I won't waste time with Nvidia chips ever again.) and
they are rock solid. Granted the video drivers are flaky, but I use the
open source driver since I don't need some of the bell and whistles the
proprietary driver offers, but I've never had trouble out of mine.


>
> - Linux protects your computer. See point on viruses above.

Uh, no, not exactly, even a poorly configured linux box is just as bad
as a Windows box. Granted, out of the box, it's safer, but not /that/ safe.

>
> - Don't pay $300 for your OS. Fine. But NetBSD is free also. OpenSolaris
> is free also. Most people get their OS with their machine. For them, the
> price of the OS is hidden (I didn't say ZERO). They don't see the need
> for an alternative from a price point of view.
>
> - Freedom. Of what? If I made the free choice to leave Windows on a
> machine... I have just as wide a choice of apps to run on it. Where is
> Linux giving me more freedom?

I'm not sure where you're going with this. But the point is, you are
not beholden to one company for patches or timely security updates.
That's a good thing if you ask me. There are holes in Windows 7+years
old that MS still hasn't patched (or just patched as in the SMB exploit).

>
> - When the system was installed, why would you still need to install
> stuff. Maybe because most Linux versions don't ship with Skype, with
> libdvdcss, with Stellarium, with... shall I add more? You STILL need to
> install stuff.

You're point? That's very true, but, it's easier to install via apt-get
or yum than buying the software and installing it, then having to
re-install and trying to find the media you've put 'in a safe place'
that you forgot where you put it.

>
> - Forget about drivers. Total fud. Try to plug a fancy 3G phone in a
> linux machine and do OBEX or use your PC as the phones internet server.
> Some features will work. Others won't. Of course, plug the same phone in
> Windows and stick in the vendor CD and everything works. Yeah... forget
> about drivers. If your hardware doesn't come with Linux drivers, you are
> likely out of luck.

I do not forget about drivers. This is the core of a decent system.
Driver stability is paramount. And the drivers in linux are much better
than they used to be. But then, even Windows drivers are crappy too.
Part of that is due to the vendor not really opening the API completely.
It's not always the fault of the OS.

>
> - Update all your software with a single click. *IF* it was installed by
> the package manager. If you did a manual install, you're dead. For
> example, today, OpenOffice.org 3.0 isn't in the standard repository of
> Ubuntu. You have to remove 2.4.x and download and manually install
> 3.0.0... and updates won't be automatic.

Not always, with a .deb file or an RPM, you still have the option of
using the package manager to manage it. How many users now download the
tarball and compile from source? Not many.


>
> - Why copy software illegally if you can get it for free. Careful there.
> There are very valid commercial software on Linux. Don't try to let
> people think that if it runs on Linux, it can be used for Free.
> AutoPanorama which I use for fancy photo panoramas is commercial... even
> on Linux. Crossover office is commercial... even on Linux. Oracle is
> commercial... even on Linux. I can add more to this list.
>
> - Need new software? Don't bother searching... unless you are looking
> for the apps mentionned in the point above... or ANY application that
> isn't in Synaptics.
>
> - Jump into the next generation of desktops. I thought that was MacOS?
> Seriously... nobody knows what the NEXT generation of desktop will be
> like.
>
> - Does your digital life seem fragmented? No... Not on my OpenSolaris
> laptop with ZFS filesystem. Oh wait... you were comparing with Windows.
> Yeah. But neither NetBSD nor OpenSolaris show fragmentation. Is Linux
> better here? Than what?

I'm not getting this either. Personally, zfs is great, but it's not
THAT great. It is not btrfs by any means, but it does have certain
attractive features. However, I've managed to blow up a couple zfs
filesystems recently and it worries me. But then nothing Sun ever did
didn't do anything but suck.

>
> - Choose what your desktop looks like. Probably the one of the few ONLY
> one that are valid (unless you count themers for Windows as alternatives).
>
> - Why does your Windows get slower every day. Because most Windows users
> download millions of apps and don't even uninstall them. Of course the
> fact that Windows doesn't properly uninstall everything helps... Same as
> above. One of the few only ones that are valid.
>
> - Do something for the environment. Right. So don't buy your Linux in
> boxes in shops either. Why do Linux distros STILL insist on being sold
> in boxes if they want to be green like that? Be coherent before you are
> green.
>
> - No back doors... like the very famous backdoor in the ATT C compilers
> that inserted specific code in login daemon when you compiled login
> daemon's source code and resulted in a system with back doors? Yes...
> open source HELPS. HELPS A LOT. But it's not a guaranty. It's MUCH
> BETTER. But don't completely rest on your 2 ears...

Amen. Just because it's open source doesn't mean it's perfect. And
there is a certain amount of trust in every software package you install
and run. That the devs did a good job and that there are no
'showstoppers' or such floating around.

>
> - Enjoy free and unlimited support. Yeah. How do people at Ubuntu live?
> They sell support contracts. For the average user, you can work with
> free community support... just as most Windows home users do... for
> enterprises, they get Linux support contracts from SuSE,
> Canonical/Ubuntu, Red Hat, Mandriva... just as they do with
> Microsoft/Windows.

Yes, this is true, to a point. The fact is, most desktop users rarely
need paid support (even for Windows). It's the corporate world most
companies like Canonical and Red Hat survive.

>
> - Use all IM protocols in one single client. Yes. Pidgin runs on Windows
> as well. In fact, Trillian, an alternative to Pidgin, which also
> supports all IM protocols only runs on Windows... not Linux.

Sorry, Kopete supports everything I could ever need in an IM client.
Pidgin has become something of a laugher to me. It's become so flaky.

>
> - Too many windows? Use workspaces. I have 2 screens on my machine.
> Easier to move mouse from left screen to right than to use workspaces.
>
> - Tired of rebooting your system? OK. Then avoid kernel updates on Linux.

Bad idea. The kernel exploits are the worst. Sure, there are fewer of
them, but still. Not to mention driver updates.

>
> - Let your old computer have a second life. Yes. Put NetBSD on it. Much
> more lightweight than Linux.

Again, I disagree here. I like BSD, but I can build a much lighter
weight linux system than I can BSD. But then, I do this for a living so
maybe it's not fair. Also, the learning curve for BSD is a little steep
just for that selling point.

>
> - Play hundreds of games for free. Probably the same as on Windows. Oh
> wait... Windows has even more.

Touche, my only complaint about linux and the ONLY reason I keep XP at
home (one copy for 13 systems.) so I can play games.
>
> - Help other countries and your own. Yes. The THIRD one on the list to
> be true (though Microsoft and others will debate that point)
>
> - Get a great music player. Strangely enough, most Linux music players
> try to reproduce the feature set and comfort of iTunes... which comes
> from MacOS and runs on Windows but not on... Linux. If the Linux music
> players were so great... why would they try to reproduce iTunes? Why not
> design something totally different from the start? Oh... And a lot of
> them (Songbird, aTunes) run on Windows. Amarok (the one illustrated on
> the web site) is being ported to Windows.

Yeah, and personally, I HATE anything Apple. Itunes is crap.

>
> - Keep an eye on the weather. There are actually too many weather
> information tools on Windows to keep track of. Most of them free.
> Weather-Watcher from Singer's Creations is a good example. Free and on
> Windows. Much better, in fact, in terms of information provided, than
> what you get on Linux.

Uh, no. ForecastFox for Firefox is very detailed. The weather modules
in Superkaramba are fantastic. But then, I also get the NOAA feed to my
desktop too, since I provide them with the weather data they use.

>
>
> So you see, of the points listed... 3 are probably really defendable...
> the rest, just about anybody can come with rebutals.
>
> The reasons to use Linux are many... but saying Linux is better is
> dangerous (at best).
>
> I use OpenSolaris on my work laptop (with just about everything I need
> on it). I use Ubuntu on my EeePC and my home server. I use Windows on my
> home desktop because I need Photoshop's RAW processing features and my
> astronomy software (Starry Night Pro) and the Nokia synchronisation
> suite (firmware update only runs on Windows) and a few more fancy
> features like proper support for my Epson R800 printer (ink levels, and
> some specific photo rendering features)... My Nokia uses Symbian - I
> chose it for that aspect. Oh... and my Wii has an OS which I have no
> idea what it is and I don't care - it runs the games I want on it fine.
>
> I like choice. I chose depending on the use. I don't close doors. And I
> don't go into comparison attemps doomed for failure.
>
> Gilles.
>
>

I like OpenSolaris, but not enough to run it on my laptop. Anything Sun
does creeps me out. Which is why I've begun migrating away from MySQL.
Sadly, because I've used MySQL for 10+ years.




--
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quadraturae circuli

Mark Haney
Sr. Systems Administrator
ERC Broadband
(828) 350-2415

Call (866) ERC-7110 for after hours support

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Old 12-09-2008, 01:22 PM
"Dotan Cohen"
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

2008/12/9 Mark Haney <mhaney@ercbroadband.org>:
> The 'there are no viruses in linux' talk is exactly what's going to give
> us trouble. There ARE viruses in linux. The problem is a matter of
> popularity, the more widely used an OS (see the recent Mac problem with
> a posting about antivirus software) the more likely writers are going to
> target it. The security structure of linux (and Mac) is such that
> viruses are more difficult to cause widespread damage, but they still /can/.

And for single-user systems, a user-account infection is no different
than a system-wide infection.

>> - Freedom. Of what? If I made the free choice to leave Windows on a
>> machine... I have just as wide a choice of apps to run on it. Where is
>> Linux giving me more freedom?
>
> I'm not sure where you're going with this. But the point is, you are
> not beholden to one company for patches or timely security updates.
> That's a good thing if you ask me. There are holes in Windows 7+years
> old that MS still hasn't patched (or just patched as in the SMB exploit).
>

Not true. If I use Fedora / Ubuntu / Distro of the month, then I rely
on that distro's support via their repos. That usually lasts no more
than three years, while XP has been supported for about eight years
now. NOT UPGRADING is important to some people.

You say that I can hire a third party to do third-party support for
Linux? Same for Windows. And there are 7+ year old security bugs open
in Linux distros, if not in the kernel itself.

> I do not forget about drivers. This is the core of a decent system.
> Driver stability is paramount. And the drivers in linux are much better
> than they used to be. But then, even Windows drivers are crappy too.
> Part of that is due to the vendor not really opening the API completely.
> It's not always the fault of the OS.
>

Drivers on both OS are crap. On windows they cause BSOD, and on Linux
they either don't exist or provide only basic functionality.

> Not always, with a .deb file or an RPM, you still have the option of
> using the package manager to manage it. How many users now download the
> tarball and compile from source? Not many.
>

If there is a .deb. Find me a .deb for real professional software like
Labview, Maple or Mathematica.

> Sorry, Kopete supports everything I could ever need in an IM client.
> Pidgin has become something of a laugher to me. It's become so flaky.
>

For you. But some of us want video or audio with out text.

> I like OpenSolaris, but not enough to run it on my laptop. Anything Sun
> does creeps me out. Which is why I've begun migrating away from MySQL.
> Sadly, because I've used MySQL for 10+ years.
>

Really? I like Java >= 1.5 and Javascript changed the web. I use
Virtualbox and OOo extensively. Sun hardware is what powers NASA. What
freaks you out about MySQL? I use it on every site I run.

--
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Old 12-09-2008, 01:23 PM
Knapp
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

> Windows has better accessibility features. Scratch that- Windows HAS
> accessibility features. Gnome has nothing useful other, and all of
> KDE's accessibility features were abandoned in KDE 4.

As I have said elsewhere KDE 4 is not read for distro use, at least
not one for mainstream users. As a person with good ears and eyes and
a working body I can't say much about accessibility in any case on any
system or OS.

> Windows has software for professionals. In my profession, engineering,
> what CAD software is available for Linux?

I don't use it much but my system has qcad on it. Might not be the
best but it is there. Could be others, I use Blender3d for 3d work not
cad. Have to ask a real cad user about that.

>> Having used Windows for years, studied with MS programmers and lived
>> in Seattle, I know what windows is. Why Linux is better is very
>> interesting to me and I posted it because I thought others might want
>> to know also. I personally think MS is on the more evil side of life.
>
> Evil? MS is a business, it is their job to lock you in.

Locking you in? How about treatment of workers (made my friend lie to
his workers and then they fired the workers and made (do it or loose
your job too) my friend train Indian workers to replace them, then
they fired him and the Indians went back to India. (This might have
been a subcontractor though, in has been to long since all this
happened and it was not to me.)), lieing or at least misleading people
(that is classic evil), getting people to work way to much (yes they
again can do it or loose their job). Monopoly, and other low life
business acts. Looking at the best software on the market, copy it,
extend it and drive the first maker out of business (legal
pragarisum). Sure a lot of this is standard business but would Jesus
do it? (I am not Christian but this gives you the view point that I
want, hope it does not offend anyone.) Yes, evil IMOHO.

Also, I might have a hard time proving this so will not try nor
defend, MS seems to want people without money to steal their software
so that they become addicted to it and then when they get older and
have money they will have to pay for it. This is stealing, stealing is
evil as well by most religious definitions I have seen.

Free open source lets the poor run their computers without stealing!
This was the second reason I changed to Linux. My MS computer was full
of stolen software and I found that I could no longer feel good about
myself as a thief (I developed morals about the same time I turned 18,
LOL). Linux allowed me to have a great computer and be honest and
crime free. I would love to see the percentage of Windows users that
have crime free computer systems!

>> Many people would be much happier with Linux if they knew why they
>> would benefit from changing and then made the change.
>>
>
> And what they would be missing as well.

Is that a trick question? Blue screen of death maybe or a game?

>> Making the change from MS to Linux is hard.
>
> Then don't do it. I should switch you from Toyota to Ford, because
> Ford is right for me.

That is just plain dumb, sometimes doing what is best takes work.
Would you say that to a smoker or other drug addict too?

>> It took me a year to start
>> to feel at home with Linux. Now I would NEVER go back because of the
>> power and freedom that comes with this system. The politics of Linux
>> and the free software movement is also a bonus for me!
>
> And those who need those freedoms can use their FOSS programs on
> Windows. What freedom-giving Linux software does not run on Windows?

10 years ago when I started? Not much. Now a lot of it does but why
would you want to? Despite the people saying that Linux does have
viruses and other problems like Windows, I have yet to have any
problems like that at all! I had problems with that on Windows all the
time (one time a month), including problems with the virus checker
itself crashing and slowing my computer.

> Note that I have not had any MS software in our household since
> October 2005. However, it is not because I hate MS or because I am on
> a mission to convert the world. It is because Linux suits our
> household. That is not true for every household.
> --
> Dotan Cohen

How does it and why does it suit your household?

--
Douglas E Knapp

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Old 12-09-2008, 01:28 PM
"Steve Flynn"
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:45 PM, Karl F. Larsen <klarsen1@gmail.com> wrote:

> The people you can sell Linux to are those who have watched the Blue
> Screen of Death on Windows just too many times. I like the phrase "Get
> in touch with your IT representative". This has no meaning to 90% of the
> Windows users.

On the other hand "Oops - kernel panic" and "core dumped" tell the
user very little. A blue screen is not intended to give information to
the end user - it's for developers, just as a Kernel panic or a core
dump is.

I don't recall the last time I saw a BSOD on any XP or Vista box I've
used to be honest.

--
Steve
When one person suffers from a delusion it is insanity. When many
people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.

09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

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Old 12-09-2008, 01:46 PM
"Joep L. Blom"
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

Mark Haney schreef:
> Gilles Gravier wrote:
>> Knapp,
>>
>>
>> Knapp wrote:
>>> I just learned of this site. It is really cool and comes in a LOT of languages!
>>> http://www.whylinuxisbetter.net/
>>> Best,
>>>
>
> Let me play a little more devil's advocate here.
>
Dotan and others,
I hesitate to bud in but I can't resist to say a few things.
MS has from the start in 1980 gained his current business position by
stealing, cheating and using all unworthy tricks it could think of to
let his competitors go down. Read the report of the European commission
on this aspect (only related to the bundling of explorer with it's OS).
Stealing: the first MSDOS was a blatant steal from CP/M which everybody
can see when comparing the first 10 instructions in DOS to CP/M and more
code has been stolen in the ensuing time (look at the history of OS/2).
Secondly MS has wilfully and intentionally made secret trapdoors in his
code to gain access to the user systems. I can go on endlessly.
Secondly, the fact that so many companies doesn't dare to make drivers
and other software for other OS is simply due to threats by MS of
banning their products.
The worst thing is that a company with so much money is not able to
construct an operating system that does what the user expects.
Unix came into existence due to the fact that Kernigan and Richie were
fed-up with the bad operating system (RSTS) that DEC sold with his
PDP-11 systems. Linux came into existence due to the fact that an IT
student thought all OS'es of his time were crappy and he build his own,
based on Unix and Minix, an OS developed for teaching purposes by
Tannenbaum, a Dutch IT professor.
The difference between those who developed Unix and Linux and the one(s)
that developed MS-OSes is that the first were technology driven, and the
second money-driven. No interest in use but in $$ is the largest
difference between Linux and the like and MS OSes.
I realize, sadly, that a good sales force is many times more important
than a good product, but I will as a private person, not use a product
that is crappy and based on illegal activities, for business I'm very
sorry to have to use Windows due to the fact that there are - until now
- no alternatives (well, yes on the Mac but I agree with Mark Haney
completely!) .
Linux is still in it's infancy but, hey, no $$-machine fuels the
development and I have the greatest admiration for the developers who,
for the majority, don't get any money out of it, only gratitude and the
pride of using their skills to do something useful.
OK, I can go on with my rant but I will stop. I only hope more people
become sensible enough to see that what's "forced down your throat" is
in practically all cases a crappy product that has to be avoided.
Joep

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Old 12-09-2008, 02:00 PM
Gilles Gravier
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

Hi, Joep!

Joep L. Blom wrote:
>> Let me play a little more devil's advocate here.
>>
I hope this point was CLEAR in my initial posting. I was "PLAYING DEVILS
ADVOCATE"... for non native English speakers, it means that I'll PRETEND
for once that I am on the OTHER SIDE just for the sake of the argument.
> Secondly MS has wilfully and intentionally made secret trapdoors in his
> code to gain access to the user systems.
While this is *PROBABLY* true... I want proof points when somebody makes
a bold claim like that.

> Secondly, the fact that so many companies doesn't dare to make drivers
> and other software for other OS is simply due to threats by MS of
> banning their products.
>
While this is *PROBABLY* true... I want proof points when somebody makes
a bold claim like that.

> Linux is still in it's infancy but, hey, no $$-machine fuels the
> development and I have the greatest admiration for the developers who,
> for the majority, don't get any money out of it, only gratitude and the
> pride of using their skills to do something useful
Actually, the biggest contributers to the Linux world are Sun and IBM...
This document :

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/ict/policy/doc/2006-11-20-flossimpact.pdf

from the European Commission shows it clearly (look at page 51).

The model they use is based on contributions to DEBIAN... so very Linux
world. They map lines of code to person-month to EUR to have a uniform
measuring point.

What does that document say?

It says that Sun has injected 312 million EUR (to which you can add the
35 million EUR from MySQL), and IBM 90 million EUR into the development
on software that is at the basis of Linux. Red Hat comes in 3rd with 59
million EUR.

They also compare in Person-months time.

The biggest contributor by university is 4955 Person-month by the
Regents of the University of California (that's Berkeley for those of
you who don't know - Berkeley as in the guys who wrote BSD Unix). In
contrast, Sun's 312 million EUR maps to (using the EU model) 51372
Person-months... that's about 10x UBC's contribution.

You want more proof? Look at the source of X.org. Count the files that
have "Copyright Sun Microsystems" in them. Then go look at GNOME. Sun is
the biggest single contributor to GNOME (almost all of ORCA - the GNOME
accessibility library - was written by Sun). Of course, no comment on
OpenOffice.org... very Sun project (even though that is slowly
changing)... and Mozilla (some projects like Sunbird/Lightning are 50%
Sun - 7 of the 14 developers of Sunbird/Ligthning are Sun employees)...

Actually, when you boot a Linux box, by the time you get to the GDM
prompt, you've run more lines of code written by Sun than by any other
single contributor.

So please stop thinking in an idealistic world. Today, Linux is
developed in LARGE, in MAJORITY part by developers that are either
funded, or salaried by large corporations who spend millions of dollars
on getting it to work.

Linux isn't ANYMORE the operating system that was developed in majority
by geek-hobbyist-that-don-t-get-payed. The world has changed.

It's a business world out there. Companies like RedHat, Canonical
(Ubuntu for those of you who don't know it yet), Mandriva LIVE off of
the selling of services on top of their distros... and they PAY
developers of Linux. A lot of the DEBIAN committers are EMPLOYEES of
Canonical.

Wake up!

Gilles.


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Old 12-09-2008, 02:00 PM
"Dotan Cohen"
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

2008/12/9 Knapp <magick.crow@gmail.com>:
>> Windows has better accessibility features. Scratch that- Windows HAS
>> accessibility features. Gnome has nothing useful other, and all of
>> KDE's accessibility features were abandoned in KDE 4.
>
> As I have said elsewhere KDE 4 is not read for distro use, at least
> not one for mainstream users. As a person with good ears and eyes and
> a working body I can't say much about accessibility in any case on any
> system or OS.
>

As a person with no usage of part of his right hand I can say much! I
also have a very high resolution (129 DPI) monitor so I enjoy
accessibility enhancers for the visually impared as well.

>> Windows has software for professionals. In my profession, engineering,
>> what CAD software is available for Linux?
>
> I don't use it much but my system has qcad on it. Might not be the
> best but it is there. Could be others, I use Blender3d for 3d work not
> cad. Have to ask a real cad user about that.
>

If it's not Solidworks, then it won't get the job done. Solidworks is
the industry standard by a huge margin, and the second CAD program
(Pro/E) does run on Linux, but it pales in comparison. Engineers need
to interoperate and the two programs are not interoperable even if I
were willing to use Pro/E.

> Locking you in? How about treatment of workers (made my friend lie to
> his workers and then they fired the workers and made (do it or loose
> your job too) my friend train Indian workers to replace them, then
> they fired him and the Indians went back to India. (This might have
> been a subcontractor though, in has been to long since all this
> happened and it was not to me.)), lieing or at least misleading people
> (that is classic evil), getting people to work way to much (yes they
> again can do it or loose their job).

I don't care about that, I am an end user. I am not out to save to world. Sorry.

> Monopoly, and other low life business acts.

Monopoly is not a low-life business act. It is the goal of every business.

> Looking at the best software on the market, copy it,
> extend it and drive the first maker out of business (legal
> pragarisum).

Just what FOSS devs would do to MS, no? That's called competition. Or
dog eat dog. Or capitalism if you want to feel important and use bug
words.

> Sure a lot of this is standard business but would Jesus
> do it? (I am not Christian but this gives you the view point that I
> want, hope it does not offend anyone.) Yes, evil IMOHO.
>

I am not Christian either, but I find Jesus to be an admirable
historical figure just as I find Alexander, Patten, Gauss, Churchill,
and many others to be admirable historical figures. I don't expect
Jesus to run a business.

> Also, I might have a hard time proving this so will not try nor
> defend, MS seems to want people without money to steal their software
> so that they become addicted to it and then when they get older and
> have money they will have to pay for it.

MS execs hav estated this clearly, it is not a secret.

> This is stealing, stealing is
> evil as well by most religious definitions I have seen.
>

Really? Could you please point me to a reliable reference where I
could see this defined as stealing? It does not matter if I agree with
you, but I think that you are wrong here.

> Free open source lets the poor run their computers without stealing!

This is true.

> This was the second reason I changed to Linux. My MS computer was full
> of stolen software and I found that I could no longer feel good about
> myself as a thief (I developed morals about the same time I turned 18,
> LOL). Linux allowed me to have a great computer and be honest and
> crime free. I would love to see the percentage of Windows users that
> have crime free computer systems!
>

Ha! I agree that piracy is encouraged in the Window ecosystem.

>>> Many people would be much happier with Linux if they knew why they
>>> would benefit from changing and then made the change.
>>
>> And what they would be missing as well.
>
> Is that a trick question? Blue screen of death maybe or a game?
>

Or engineering software, or printer support, or those extra mouse
buttons, or that webcam, or that IE-only banking website. I could go
one (others have).

>>> Making the change from MS to Linux is hard.
>>
>> Then don't do it. I should switch you from Toyota to Ford, because
>> Ford is right for me.
>
> That is just plain dumb, sometimes doing what is best takes work.
> Would you say that to a smoker or other drug addict too?
>

I quit smoking after 13 years. Sometimes the hard work is worthwhile,
sometimes not. For you it was, but not for some others.

>> And those who need those freedoms can use their FOSS programs on
>> Windows. What freedom-giving Linux software does not run on Windows?
>
> 10 years ago when I started? Not much. Now a lot of it does but why
> would you want to? Despite the people saying that Linux does have
> viruses and other problems like Windows, I have yet to have any
> problems like that at all! I had problems with that on Windows all the
> time (one time a month), including problems with the virus checker
> itself crashing and slowing my computer.
>

I have been using Linux exclusively at home for a little over three
years now. No system compromises so far as I know of. But I am missing
out on some functions that Windows users have, as I stated above.

>> Note that I have not had any MS software in our household since
>> October 2005. However, it is not because I hate MS or because I am on
>> a mission to convert the world. It is because Linux suits our
>> household. That is not true for every household.
>
> How does it and why does it suit your household?
>

My wife can do her basic word processing for her own use in OOo.
Firefox is a suitable replacement for IE now. There are still many
Israeli websites that require IE, but things are getting better. In
fact, I switched banks because the old bank required IE. We use
Digikam extensively, and Amarok for music. I could go one, but
everything that we do in Linux we could be doing in Windows. And more.

--
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il

א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-*-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת
ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-*-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه*-و-ي
А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-*-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-*-Ю-Я
а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я
ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü
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Old 12-09-2008, 02:25 PM
Robert Holtzman
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

On Tue, 9 Dec 2008, Dotan Cohen wrote:
> 2008/12/9 Knapp <magick.crow@gmail.com>:
>> There is no "force" here. If Windows were better, I for one would love
>> to know about it! I might even switch back, if I had a lot of free
>> cash to give away.
>>
>
> Windows has better accessibility features. Scratch that- Windows HAS
> accessibility features. Gnome has nothing useful other, and all of
> KDE's accessibility features were abandoned in KDE 4.
>

> Windows has software for professionals. In my profession, engineering,
> what CAD software is available for Linux?

It depends on whether 3D modeling is needed.

http://www.tech-edv.co.at/lunix/CADlinks.html
http://linuxgazette.net/issue54/frost.html

It's too bad ProE discontinued linux support.

>
>> Having used Windows for years, studied with MS programmers and lived
>> in Seattle, I know what windows is. Why Linux is better is very
>> interesting to me and I posted it because I thought others might want
>> to know also. I personally think MS is on the more evil side of life.
>
> Evil? MS is a business, it is their job to lock you in.

On paper, their job is to make money for their shareholders by
satisfying customer demand. In practice, customer demand be damned. Lock
in is merely the tool they have chosen to use instead of actual product
improvement to enhance usability (not the same as feature creep).

............snip...........

>> It took me a year to start
>> to feel at home with Linux. Now I would NEVER go back because of the
>> power and freedom that comes with this system. The politics of Linux
>> and the free software movement is also a bonus for me!
>
> And those who need those freedoms can use their FOSS programs on
> Windows. What freedom-giving Linux software does not run on Windows?

The big ones like Firefox or OpenOffice do but I seem to remember there
are many that are linux only. There are, however, equivalent apps for
windows.

.........snip...........

--
Bob Holtzman
A day without fusion is like, a day without sunshine
If it smells it's chemistry, if it crawls it's biology, if it doesn't
work it's physics


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Old 12-09-2008, 02:46 PM
"Sambit Bikas Pal"
 
Default Selling Linux to Windows Users

What is this fuss all about? Use whichever suits you the best. For me
Windoze stinks. For someone it may be the best thing ever to have
existed in the universe.

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 17:46, Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> wrote:

> If people are happy with Windows, why force them to move to Linux?
> Linux is not better, it is different. Would you like me to show you
> why Windows is better?
>




--
Sambit Bikas Pal
MS 3rd Year
Indian Institute Of Science Education & Research Kolkata,
HC 7, Sector-III Salt Lake, Kolkata-700106
Web: http://www.botcyb.org
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NB: Kindly send mails as "text/plain".

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