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Old 09-11-2008, 02:15 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default phantom files

Marius Gedminas wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 04:25:31PM -0700, Smoot Carl-Mitchell wrote:
>> On Wed, 2008-09-10 at 16:02 -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote:

>> locate uses a database of filenames to speed its operation. The
>> database is updated by updatedb once a day. Look in /etc/cron.daily and
>> you will see the cron job mlocate which calls updatedb. I suspect the
>> database was just out of date. On my system cron runs the daily jobs at
>> 6:25 AM local time. This is found in /etc/crontab.
>
> slocate used to check for the existence of the files before printing
> their names. Does mlocate not do so?

Whew! It's not just me. I noticed this for the first time yesterday. I
was sure that was the case _recently_, but yesterday I 'locate'd a string,
deleted a few of the files shown, and did the locate again and they all
showed up.
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Old 09-11-2008, 03:28 PM
Pastor JW
 
Default phantom files

On Thursday 11 September 2008 04:27:51 am Mark Haney wrote:
> > Reindexing with Tracker and rebooting
> > changed nothing. The phantom files still showed up with "locate".
> >
> > Anyone have an explanation?

>
> Try re-booting. The locate system is re-loaded in a bootup.
>
> Karl

He JUST finished saying "rebooting changed nothing".

>
> Good grief. Don't reboot as root run 'updatedb'.
>
> This isn't Windows, you know.

I have been wondering about that as it seems an awful lot of windoze "cures"
and indeed windoze support on this list. Is Ubuntu really as bad an OS as
windoze? I look at the top of the page alot to reassure myself and it always
seems to say "Ubuntu user technical support, not for general discussions" but
the subject is fully 90 percent windoze, or windoze type advice! Reboot,
reinstall, etc, never cure the original problem, and worse they are usually
quite destructive to one's data. Its like getting a sliver in your foot and
hacking the leg off above the knee to cure it! In windoze case they
generally take the right leg off to cure the sliver in the left
foot! ...tthen take the other one off the the next day when the cure didn't
work the first time!

On this question, why are there two separate databases used or if there are,
why when one removes something from one, isn't the other one updated to
reflect the change since they are holding the same file information. Tracker
seems to get massive so I'd suspect there are bugs to work out there yet.

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Old 09-11-2008, 03:48 PM
"Mark Haney"
 
Default phantom files

Pastor JW wrote:
> On Thursday 11 September 2008 04:27:51 am Mark Haney wrote:
>>> Reindexing with Tracker and rebooting
>>> changed nothing. The phantom files still showed up with "locate".
>>>
>>> Anyone have an explanation?
>
>> Try re-booting. The locate system is re-loaded in a bootup.
>>
>> Karl
>
> He JUST finished saying "rebooting changed nothing".
>
>> Good grief. Don't reboot as root run 'updatedb'.
>>
>> This isn't Windows, you know.
>
> I have been wondering about that as it seems an awful lot of windoze "cures"
> and indeed windoze support on this list. Is Ubuntu really as bad an OS as
> windoze? I look at the top of the page alot to reassure myself and it always
> seems to say "Ubuntu user technical support, not for general discussions" but
> the subject is fully 90 percent windoze, or windoze type advice! Reboot,
> reinstall, etc, never cure the original problem, and worse they are usually
> quite destructive to one's data. Its like getting a sliver in your foot and
> hacking the leg off above the knee to cure it! In windoze case they
> generally take the right leg off to cure the sliver in the left
> foot! ...tthen take the other one off the the next day when the cure didn't
> work the first time!
>
> On this question, why are there two separate databases used or if there are,
> why when one removes something from one, isn't the other one updated to
> reflect the change since they are holding the same file information. Tracker
> seems to get massive so I'd suspect there are bugs to work out there yet.
>

Here's my take. (and OPINION only) I think that the majority of Ubuntu
users are from the Windows world. Ubuntu is pretty good for getting
n00bs on to linux. But, with that said, I would think there are fewer
really experienced people on this list than other lists. The fedora
list is chock full of people with more linux than windows knowledge.

That's not to say the Ubuntu crowd isn't knowledgeable, just maybe less
aware of the niceties of linux than some others. I think part of that
problem is due to the fact that Ubuntu is much more GUI-centric than
other distros. (IMHO, again). That makes Windows users more
comfortable, but limits what those users can really do with a linux box.
The command line is your friend. Period. Know matter what GUI tools
might be out there, I can do it from the CLI much faster.

Windows machines are typically hamstrung on the CLI. You can't do all
the things there that you can from the CLI in linux.

So, feel free to flame, it's just my opinion.

As to your other question, multiple databases are part of the game in
linux. Tracker is probably used (like Beagle) for indexing files for
display in a GUI window, whereas mlocate (or slocate) is used by the shell.

Here's the deal, and what people tend to forget. In Windows, it's
(mostly) one Tool to Rule them All. And usually that one tool only does
half of what it should correctly.

Whereas in linux, you have lots tools that do ONE thing, but does it
extremely well. In linux there is more than one way to skin a cat.
That's part of the attraction to linux, you're not stuck in a GUI world
where some developer decides that everyone should have the same look.
You can customize til you are blue in the face. That also stands for
the tools you use. I use locate more than 'which'. But I can use both.
I use sed more than awk and grep more than almost anything else.

Does that make sense at all?


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Old 09-11-2008, 03:57 PM
Smoot Carl-Mitchell
 
Default phantom files

On Thu, 2008-09-11 at 08:28 -0700, Pastor JW wrote:

> On this question, why are there two separate databases used or if there are,
> why when one removes something from one, isn't the other one updated to
> reflect the change since they are holding the same file information. Tracker
> seems to get massive so I'd suspect there are bugs to work out there yet.

Tracker indexes file content while locate just keeps track of files.
IIRC locate was a hack to speed up "find / -print. In a perfect world
you probably should merge the two systems, although tracker seems a bit
heavy for just keeping track of pathnames.
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Old 09-11-2008, 04:11 PM
"Marcin 'Qrczak' Kowalczyk"
 
Default phantom files

2008/9/11 Smoot Carl-Mitchell <smoot@tic.com>:

> Tracker indexes file content while locate just keeps track of files.
> IIRC locate was a hack to speed up "find / -print. In a perfect world
> you probably should merge the two systems, although tracker seems a bit
> heavy for just keeping track of pathnames.

Also, tracker attempts to trace filesystem changes in real time. The
infrastructure for doing that efficiently was not present at the time
locate has been designed.

OTOH locate's updatedb runs as root and has a single database for the
whole filesystem and for all users (locate filters results according
to user permissions, so users only see files they could normally
access), while tracker is run separately by each user and usually
indexes only his home directory.

Neither is a full replacement of the other, which is a pity, and is
not trivial to improve.

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Old 09-11-2008, 05:23 PM
Carl Friis-Hansen
 
Default phantom files

Smoot Carl-Mitchell wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-09-11 at 08:28 -0700, Pastor JW wrote:
>
>> On this question, why are there two separate databases used or if there are,
>> why when one removes something from one, isn't the other one updated to
>> reflect the change since they are holding the same file information. Tracker
>> seems to get massive so I'd suspect there are bugs to work out there yet.
>
> Tracker indexes file content while locate just keeps track of files.
> IIRC locate was a hack to speed up "find / -print. In a perfect world
> you probably should merge the two systems, although tracker seems a bit
> heavy for just keeping track of pathnames.

You could make the perfect world yourself in a relative simple command
line involving cat, locate and grep. If you want locate to use a
database with a more narrow scope, you could do that with locate -d
databasePath.
So, really it is all there, just use it.
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Old 09-11-2008, 05:57 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default phantom files

Pastor JW wrote:

> I have been wondering about that as it seems an awful lot of windoze
> "cures"
> and indeed windoze support on this list. Is Ubuntu really as bad an OS as
> windoze? I look at the top of the page alot to reassure myself and it
> always seems to say "Ubuntu user technical support, not for general
> discussions" but
> the subject is fully 90 percent windoze, or windoze type advice! Reboot,
> reinstall, etc, never cure the original problem, and worse they are
> usually

Funny, I've never noticed that, and I've been here since before Ubuntu was
officially released. We generally try to fix problems not work around
them.

> On this question, why are there two separate databases used

because they do two very different things. locate indexes filenames,
nothing more. tracker indexes content.

> Tracker seems to get massive so I'd suspect there are bugs to work out
> there yet.

I don't know how you would index all the content on your system without
getting massive :-)
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Old 09-11-2008, 06:04 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default phantom files

Mark Haney wrote:

> Here's my take. (and OPINION only) I think that the majority of Ubuntu
> users are from the Windows world. Ubuntu is pretty good for getting
> n00bs on to linux. But, with that said, I would think there are fewer
> really experienced people on this list than other lists. The fedora
> list is chock full of people with more linux than windows knowledge.
>
> That's not to say the Ubuntu crowd isn't knowledgeable, just maybe less
> aware of the niceties of linux than some others. I think part of that
> problem is due to the fact that Ubuntu is much more GUI-centric than
> other distros. (IMHO, again). That makes Windows users more
> comfortable, but limits what those users can really do with a linux box.
> The command line is your friend. Period. Know matter what GUI tools
> might be out there, I can do it from the CLI much faster.
>
> Windows machines are typically hamstrung on the CLI. You can't do all
> the things there that you can from the CLI in linux.
>
> So, feel free to flame, it's just my opinion.

OK, flame on :-)

No, really, you're sort of right. We have plenty of knowledgeable people
here, and I'll bet my knowledge of linux internals against 90% of the
fedora list, but _because_ Ubuntu attracts Windows users, there's a lot
more volume of less-knowledgeable posters. I wouldn't even call it a
signal-to-noise problem, or people (mostly) not knowing what they're
talking about, as just there's an awful lot of beginner questions!

otoh, claiming you can do everything in the CLI faster than I can do it in a
GUI is just plain ignorant :-)

> Whereas in linux, you have lots tools that do ONE thing, but does it
> extremely well. In linux there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Well, that would be an argument against having two databases that seem to do
the same thing.
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Old 09-11-2008, 06:05 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default phantom files

Smoot Carl-Mitchell wrote:

> On Thu, 2008-09-11 at 08:28 -0700, Pastor JW wrote:
>
>> On this question, why are there two separate databases used or if there
>> are, why when one removes something from one, isn't the other one updated
>> to
>> reflect the change since they are holding the same file information.
>> Tracker seems to get massive so I'd suspect there are bugs to work out
>> there yet.
>
> Tracker indexes file content while locate just keeps track of files.
> IIRC locate was a hack to speed up "find / -print. In a perfect world
> you probably should merge the two systems, although tracker seems a bit
> heavy for just keeping track of pathnames.

Well, I've always kept tracker turned off - can't handle the overhead - so
it would really affect me if locate was merged into it :-)
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Old 09-11-2008, 06:20 PM
"Mark Haney"
 
Default phantom files

Derek Broughton wrote:
> Mark Haney wrote:
>
>> Here's my take. (and OPINION only) I think that the majority of Ubuntu
>> users are from the Windows world. Ubuntu is pretty good for getting
>> n00bs on to linux. But, with that said, I would think there are fewer
>> really experienced people on this list than other lists. The fedora
>> list is chock full of people with more linux than windows knowledge.
>>
>> That's not to say the Ubuntu crowd isn't knowledgeable, just maybe less
>> aware of the niceties of linux than some others. I think part of that
>> problem is due to the fact that Ubuntu is much more GUI-centric than
>> other distros. (IMHO, again). That makes Windows users more
>> comfortable, but limits what those users can really do with a linux box.
>> The command line is your friend. Period. Know matter what GUI tools
>> might be out there, I can do it from the CLI much faster.
>>
>> Windows machines are typically hamstrung on the CLI. You can't do all
>> the things there that you can from the CLI in linux.
>>
>> So, feel free to flame, it's just my opinion.
>
> OK, flame on :-)
>
> No, really, you're sort of right. We have plenty of knowledgeable people
> here, and I'll bet my knowledge of linux internals against 90% of the
> fedora list, but _because_ Ubuntu attracts Windows users, there's a lot
> more volume of less-knowledgeable posters. I wouldn't even call it a
> signal-to-noise problem, or people (mostly) not knowing what they're
> talking about, as just there's an awful lot of beginner questions!
>

I do agree there, maybe my phrasing was off, but it did seem to get the
point across. You find many more 'first timers' on the Ubuntu list
/because/ it's more user friendly. I started my kids and Mother out on
it, but they graduated to Gentoo. No more upgrades, just rolling updates.


> otoh, claiming you can do everything in the CLI faster than I can do it in a
> GUI is just plain ignorant :-)

Okay, when I wrote that, I really meant more administration type things.
Not so much 'regular user' type things. (Like email, browsing, etc.)
In that, I stand corrected due to the fact I had one thing in mind and
didn't elaborate.


>
>> Whereas in linux, you have lots tools that do ONE thing, but does it
>> extremely well. In linux there is more than one way to skin a cat.
>
> Well, that would be an argument against having two databases that seem to do
> the same thing.

I don't see how that would be an argument against that. In fact, it
reinforces my point. There are many more ways to do things in linux,
and you cannot count on each and every system having the basic setup, so
you need to include databases for indexing for your new tool, if that is
what it does.

There is a downside in that you can't assume your favorite tools are on
someone else's system. But, it does mean you get to learn new stuff
when that happens.




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Mark Haney
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(828) 350-2415

Call (866) ERC-7110 for after hours support

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