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Old 08-06-2008, 07:53 AM
"Alan E. Davis"
 
Default Bug report out of context: Harcy handling of /dev/sd? devices is unacceptable

I have been happy to use Ubuntu for a while, and felt it has improved my work habits, because I didn't have to spend much time maintaining my system.* I used Ubuntu in the past, off and on, and decided finally to install Ubuntu on all my systems.* My main machine, however, I am now moving away from Ubuntu back to Gentoo.*


I still recommend Ubuntu to others, and I will still use it on a laptop and two other machines with a single HDD each.* However, the behavior of Ubuntu 2008.04 pertaining to mixed PATA and SATA drives is insuperable.* I will keep my eye open, however, I will probably be forced to install some other distribution, much to my chagrin, in other systems.* This is the main reason, the critical reason to be uncomfortable with Ubuntu on any computer of mine: it will be difficult to regain my trust.*


I have posted several times to the Ubuntu mailing list or forums.* I understand the overwhelming volume as an issue, and perhaps some of my posts were not well written, but I cannot remember very many times---perhaps only 20%---when I've received a response.* The forum isn't much better---and the forum has become burdensome due to the perceived need to filter out undesireable users and robots with a signin screen.* My attempts to post bugs have been frustrated by the bug reporting system that Ubuntu uses.* I have learned to solve my own problems.* I have regretted not being knowledgeable enough to help most others.*


I have posted this problem before, more than once, and never received a response.* I am galled that Hardy was even released with such a bug.* Others have posted similar problems, but with little help.* Here, then, is the bug report I started to make last night.* It probably seems more like a rant, but it is absolutely true, and my rant is minor, when I recall losing somewhere between 40 and 60 GB of personal archives.*


Here it is:

** Ubuntu 2008.04.
***
*** I experienced a plethora of problems involving /etc/fstab, grub.
*** Device names were inconsistent.* I have one PATA drive and one
*** SATA drive.* Assignment of previous /dev/hda to /dev/sda coopted

*** the earlier assignment on several Linux distros, by assigning
*** normal /dev/sda and /dev/sdb, etc.* I have several HDDs that I
*** swap in and out between two machines.
***
*** Due to the inability of grub to deal properly with the

*** installation of GRUB into the MBR, I had to use a Gentoo install
*** disk, and install from that, before being able to get Ubuntu to
*** boot using grub.* It worked out, once this had been done, that
*** Ubuntu's grub then wrote a /boot/grub/menu.lst with a device

*** number that did not jibe with the actual device ordering.
*** THerefore I had had to edit the automatically installed Ubuntu
*** menu.lst to reflect a different drive assignment.* After this,
*** Ubuntu booted ok.

***
***
*** As a consequence of the naming debacle, I inadvertently wrote over
*** a 40+ GB partition, mistaking it for a different one.* I am
*** reporting this as a bug.* I use Ubuntu on a laptop and another

*** machine with a single HDD, but on my main machine I will not do so
*** any longer.* This bug furthermore has been reported several
*** places, but the Ubuntu but reporting and the difficulties of using
*** Ubuntu forums (require the copying of digits from an image just to

*** read!* Ridiculous and a waste of time.)* seem to have conspired
*** against the bug being widely recognized.* Hardy Heron should not
*** have been released with this bug.* The fact that it was indicates
*** that the powers that be placed marketing issues ahead of a

*** critical bug.* Why was it not recognized?
***
*** My motherboard is an ASUS M2N-E with a Phoenix Bios.* HDDs are
*** Western Digital, IBM, and Maxtor.
***
***
*** I did not make this up.* I will be using other options for now.

*** However, I have recommended Ubuntu to many people, and I plan to
*** recommend it in a professional development workshop for my school
*** system, although, at this point, with some trepidation.* Even
*** though I have, in most of my work, moved over to Gentoo, I wish to

*** make this bug known, in hopes it will be taken a little more
*** seriously.* The new fstab using UUID has been a major headache.
*** Perhaps it does have it's usefulness.* However, I can see now that
*** the easy modification and understanding of the system by the user

*** has taken second place to other concerns.* I have never seen any
*** admission by any Ubuntu people that this is a problem, every bug
*** report I have seen is met with a note in some superior tone of
*** voice about how good it is.* For me, it was a disaster.* Is Ubuntu

*** violating the spirit of the concept of Openness by releasing this
*** distro?

Please do not try to answer about the SATA/PATA issue or the Grub issue, unless you can report that the problem has been resolved.* I have no use for further explanations of the preference for UUID in /etc/fstab.* Ubuntu Hardy Heron seems to have taken a perilous fork in the road, and despite any conceivable explanation, it leaves the user in less control of his system.

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Old 08-06-2008, 03:02 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default Bug report out of context: Harcy handling of /dev/sd? devices is unacceptable

Alan E. Davis wrote:

> However, the behavior of Ubuntu
> 2008.04 pertaining to mixed PATA and SATA drives is insuperable.
...
> I have posted several times to the Ubuntu mailing list or forums. I
> understand the overwhelming volume as an issue, and perhaps some of my
> posts were not well written, but I cannot remember very many
> times---perhaps only
> 20%---when I've received a response.

Posted about this? Doesn't it strike you that it's a pretty small
percentage of us who would _have_ mixed PATA/SATA drives on our systems?

> I experienced a plethora of problems involving /etc/fstab, grub.
> Device names were inconsistent. I have one PATA drive and one
> SATA drive. Assignment of previous /dev/hda to /dev/sda coopted
> the earlier assignment on several Linux distros, by assigning
> normal /dev/sda and /dev/sdb, etc. I have several HDDs that I
> swap in and out between two machines.

Not a problem. Use UUID or LABEL for mounting. Reassigning /dev/hda drives
to /dev/sda isn't an Ubuntu problem - it was mandated by kernel changes.

> Due to the inability of grub to deal properly with the
> installation of GRUB into the MBR,

Huh? What sort of bug report begins with stating as fact something that's
clearly not an issue for the average user? You'd need to give a whole lot
more background to that issue.

> I had to use a Gentoo install
> disk, and install from that, before being able to get Ubuntu to
> boot using grub. It worked out, once this had been done, that
> Ubuntu's grub then wrote a /boot/grub/menu.lst with a device
> number that did not jibe with the actual device ordering.

I'm guessing, though you haven't explicitly stated it, that you have
removable drives here. It's a simple fact that removing drives can change
the device ordering. As far as grub is concerned, the device it's booting
from is (hd0), but grub is likely to not have much control of the ordering
of the rest of the drives.

> As a consequence of the naming debacle, I inadvertently wrote over
> a 40+ GB partition, mistaking it for a different one. I am
> reporting this as a bug.

You wrote over a 40GB partition and blame Ubuntu? Come on, now. Modifying
partitions is _always_ dangerous, and the only way Ubuntu can stop you
doing that is to not provide partition managers.

> the difficulties of using
> Ubuntu forums (require the copying of digits from an image just to
> read! Ridiculous and a waste of time.)

This wouldn't be any place to complain about that. We aren't using web
forums for a reason...

> seem to have conspired
> against the bug being widely recognized. Hardy Heron should not
> have been released with this bug. The fact that it was indicates
> that the powers that be placed marketing issues ahead of a
> critical bug. Why was it not recognized?

I still haven't figured out what you think is a bug.

> The new fstab using UUID has been a major headache.

Not half as much as NOT using UUID would have been.

> Please do not try to answer about the SATA/PATA issue or the Grub issue,
> unless you can report that the problem has been resolved. I have no use
> for
> further explanations of the preference for UUID in /etc/fstab. Ubuntu
> Hardy Heron seems to have taken a perilous fork in the road, and despite
> any conceivable explanation, it leaves the user in less control of his
> system.

Well, if you don't intend to actually explain your problem, or to examine it
further to find out what the problem really is, we can't help. And if you
want to just blindly insist that the only problem is that LINUX (not
Ubuntu) renamed your devices, then we probably don't _want_ to help.

So far I've seen no indication that anything happened to you that won't
happen under Gentoo.
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Old 08-07-2008, 03:36 AM
"Alan E. Davis"
 
Default Bug report out of context: Harcy handling of /dev/sd? devices is unacceptable

This response typifies those I've received on this list.* Arrogant and self contained.

I had made a note to myself not to respond.* I hope it will clear up a couple of issues if I do address some of your points, however:


On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 1:02 AM, Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote:

*Doesn't it strike you that it's a pretty small

percentage of us who would _have_ mixed PATA/SATA drives on our systems?
No. *





Not a problem. *Use UUID or LABEL for mounting. *Reassigning /dev/hda drives

to /dev/sda isn't an Ubuntu problem - it was mandated by kernel changes.


I don't believe you.







I'm guessing, though you haven't explicitly stated it, that you have

removable drives here. *It's a simple fact that removing drives can change

the device ordering. *As far as grub is concerned, the device it's booting

from is (hd0), but grub is likely to not have much control of the ordering

of the rest of the drives.
No removable drives.* I can tell grub to boot to hd0, hd1, hd2, etc.





> * * As a consequence of the naming debacle, I inadvertently wrote over

> * * a 40+ GB partition, mistaking it for a different one. *I am

> * * reporting this as a bug.



You wrote over a 40GB partition and blame Ubuntu? *Come on, now. *Modifying

partitions is _always_ dangerous, and the only way Ubuntu can stop you

doing that is to not provide partition managers.
Assignation of blame is a minor issue.* I am concerned that (contrary to your opinion) Ubuntu has slipped a fast one.* There is no UUID in gentoo /etc/fstab at this point, so in what way was that *mandated by kernel changes?*


I was confused, needlessly.*




This wouldn't be any place to complain about that. *We aren't using web

forums for a reason...
Ok.**






I still haven't figured out what you think is a bug.



> * * The new fstab using UUID has been a major headache.



Not half as much as NOT using UUID would have been.



> Please do not try to answer about the SATA/PATA issue or the Grub issue,

> unless you can report that the problem has been resolved. *I have no use

> for

> further explanations of the preference for UUID in /etc/fstab. *Ubuntu

> Hardy Heron seems to have taken a perilous fork in the road, and despite

> any conceivable explanation, it leaves the user in less control of his

> system.



Well, if you don't intend to actually explain your problem, or to examine it

further to find out what the problem really is, we can't help. *And if you

want to just blindly insist that the only problem is that LINUX (not

Ubuntu) renamed your devices, then we probably don't _want_ to help.


*

So far I've seen no indication that anything happened to you that won't

happen under Gentoo.
I don't want this to degenerate into a contest between distros, but when I installed Hardy from a CD, and booted, grub complained about not finding the partition.* I didn't set it up, grub did.* I had to edit /boot/grub/menu.lst to allow Ubuntu to boot the system it had itself installed.


Then the /etc/fstab assignment of the device was different than what grub sees.*

I've not seen this elsewhere.* If it's not a bug, what is it?

Alan





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Alan Davis

"It's never a matter of liking or disliking ..."
---Santa Ynez Chumash Medicine Man



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Old 08-07-2008, 12:24 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default Bug report out of context: Harcy handling of /dev/sd? devices is unacceptable

Alan E. Davis wrote:

> This response typifies those I've received on this list. Arrogant and
> self contained.

If that's the way you react no wonder you don't get replies you like.

> I had made a note to myself not to respond. I hope it will clear up a
> couple of issues if I do address some of your points, however:

LOL

>
> On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 1:02 AM, Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> Doesn't it strike you that it's a pretty small
>> percentage of us who would _have_ mixed PATA/SATA drives on our systems?
>
>
> No.

Jeez. How many of us even have _multiple_ drives? Let alone mixed
PATA/SATA. Sorry, it's just simply a very small subset of users, and you
can't expect a lot of us to have experience with your issue.

>> Not a problem. Use UUID or LABEL for mounting. Reassigning /dev/hda
>> drives
>> to /dev/sda isn't an Ubuntu problem - it was mandated by kernel changes.
>>
>
> I don't believe you.

There's only one possible reaction to this. I really couldn't care less if
you want to disregard the truth. We're done.

<plonk>

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Old 08-10-2008, 01:38 PM
"Alan E. Davis"
 
Default Bug report out of context: Harcy handling of /dev/sd? devices is unacceptable

I had posted to try to bring the problem I have had to light.* Every response has discounted my experience.* I can see some light here, as per the discussion of BIOS preferences.*

Can you explain this to me, why I have not had the same problem with Gentoo?** I seriously do not wish to light up flames between Gentoo and Ubuntu, but rather to open up once again to explain as best I could what had happened to me.*


I have never had this problem before.* I hope I never do again, and I don't guess I have been really nice about it, but every answer I have gotten on this list has sidestepped that I really did have the problem and attempted to explain it away.


Sure, I have mixed PATA and SATA, why not?* I have both.* I didn't through the old PATA's away.* Only with Hardy did I ever see an adjustment of the device names.

Here are some stats to shed light, at least, on the statements about it not being possible to avoid /dev/sdX being substituted for /dev/hdY:


luminosity alan # uname -a
Linux luminosity 2.6.26-gentoo #1 SMP Sun Jul 27 12:12:48 [...* ]

# df
luminosity alan # df
Filesystem********** 1K-blocks***** Used Available Use% Mounted on
rootfs*************** 69298420* 27887260* 37890920* 43% /

/dev/root************ 69298420* 27887260* 37890920* 43% /
udev******************** 10240****** 164**** 10076** 2% /dev
none****************** 1029348******** 0** 1029348** 0% /dev/shm
rc-svcdir**************** 1024******* 68****** 956** 7% /lib64/rc/init.d

/dev/sdc1************** 101086**** 48750**** 47117* 51% /boot
/dev/sda6************ 62144164* 54414904** 4572492* 93% /home/moseley
/dev/sdb4*********** 229672204* 93745384 124351988* 43% /home/alan/ARCHIVE
/dev/hda6************ 20176612* 13747140** 5404528* 72% /media/disk

/dev/sda2************ 76896348* 64544888** 8445256* 89% /media/disk-1
/dev/hda7************ 21859252* 11233488** 9524112* 55% /media/disk-2
/dev/sda1************ 43643548* 27245660* 14180920* 66% /media/disk-3
/dev/sdb3*********** 101272600*** 192252* 95976500** 1% /media/disk-4

/dev/sdb1************ 51361528*** 184272* 48588788** 1% /media/disk-5
/dev/hda1************** 451623*** 148442*** 279086* 35% /media/disk-6
/dev/sda5************ 57677500* 54639628*** 108020 100% /media/video3




This is not to say that I understand all of this.* But something's happening here.* I don't have the same information available* from Ubuntu Hardy Heron at present.*** These would all be /dev/sdX.*


I'm not going to win this battle, but be upbraded and derided and demonstrated again and again to be wrong.* Maybe I am.

Alan

On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 1:06 AM, Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote:

Rashkae wrote:



> Alan E. Davis wrote:

>

>

>>

>> Assignation of blame is a minor issue. *I am concerned that (contrary to

>> your opinion) Ubuntu has slipped a fast one. *There is no UUID in gentoo

>> /etc/fstab at this point, so in what way was that *mandated by kernel

>> changes?*

>>

>

> UUID is not mandated by kernel, but change for /dev/hd? to /dev/sd? is.



Precisely. *UUID was a very smart way to deal with the issue.



> You will learn the mistake of your assumptions in time. *I know you

> don't believe me, and I won't convince you, but the change was made by

> people who know much more for a *very* good reason. *UUID is the only

> way to stop the system from not working when hardware is changed, or

> kernel changes device assignment, or or or.... *Otherwise, we're back to

> the days of instructing people with broken system to boot from rescue cd

> and edit fstab... yeah, that's so much less hassle for average users.



There _is_ a post from someone here saying he's having issues with plugging

new USB devices changing the location of _existing_ mounts, and if so, that

_is_ a serious bug, but nothing reported here is a bug.



> This is a direct result of mixed SATA/PATA, assuming your CD-rom is IDE.

> *When you boot from the CD-rom, the BIOS gives ide precedence, and your

> IDE hard drive is considered drive 0. *Then when you switch to booting

> on SATA, the BIOS gives SATA precedence, and identifies the SATA drive

> as drive 0, and of course, re-numbers everything else. *I'd be surprised

> if any distro can install from an IDE device to a SATA device, with

> other IDE hard drives, and not need a little post-install tweaking.



Thanks for making it more clear than I could.



>> I've not seen this elsewhere. *If it's not a bug, what is it?

>

> PEBKAC



LOL :-)

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Alan Davis

"It's never a matter of liking or disliking ..."
---Santa Ynez Chumash Medicine Man



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